I fear the worst...

[coffee_brake]

Could you folks tell me more about what's going on? I couldn't test-ride my '01 Vmax before I got it. It is very clean, but maybe the tranny is on its way out.

It has 32k miles, and shifts well around town. It is incredibly hard to find neutral. Sometimes I just can't and give up on it. I changed the oil this weekend, just to start over with the maintenance under my "watch." It didn't change anything with the weird neutral.
I've only ridden it hard a few times, as I'm still getting used to it, but every time I hit the Vboost and shift up to second gear, then when I let off the throttle it comes out of gear. I grab the clutch lever and even with the clutch in, it crunches and crashes and lurches when I down-shift.

As best I know it, this means second gear is bad.

What else can I mess with? I'm very sure I'm pushing through to a positive shift and using enough strength, but maybe the linkage has troubles?

Then, how bad is this going to be to fix, if it IS second gear? I'm not scared to do the work, but I have just the common/basic decent home tools and zero experience with trannys.

Much appreciate any info....

[KJShover]

Did you try and move your shift lever down a little to aide in the shifting?

If you try that and you still have that problem, it might be the dredded second gear or a gear segment issue.

As far as finding neutral, some bikes are a pain in the ass to find it. on my max its a pain I can find it easier if I'm kicking down to neutral rather than pulling up to it.

[naughtyG]

I'm sure Sean will chime in - he's the expert on transmissions!

In the meantime though, I would check that your clutch is in good shape and working properly, just because I believe it's easier to get to the clutch than to rebuild the tranny.

There was a second gear problem with early Maxes, but I thought that the later ones (and definitely by '01) had been modified by Yamaha so that this would not happen anymore. If it is gone though, it would probably mean that the PO rode it very hard, raced it or did a lot of wheelies and burn-outs..

As far as rebuilding it is concerned, it's a pretty full-on job, as my understanding is that you have to take the motor out, then split the cases to get there. I believe Sean has said that it can be done without disturbing the top end, which is a small consolation.:confused2:

One possible bonus - if that's yer cup of tea - is that when rebuilding the tranny you can swap the 5th gear for one from a Venture, and that gives you much more relaxed RPMs in top for highway cruising. Something I would like, but it's gonna have to wait until the motor eventually needs to come out..

[vmaxride06]

Found this link on a venture forum, it will give you an idea if you want to tackle yourself. Has decent pictures. I would get more information from Sean

http://www.venturers.org/Tech_Library/?action=article&cat_id=001006&id=250

[richwrench]

Mine did that, but I had the old style shifter segment in it - your '01 would already have the updated one. Still,it's much easier to check that than to split the case - it's right behind the clutch drum - check the older threads here. Not too hard of a job.

[maleko89]

When's the last time the clutch fluid was replaced? Perhaps clutch plates/discs aren't fully disengaging.

[COP RUNNER]

did you try and move your shift lever down a little to aide in the shifting?

If you try that and you still have that problem, it might be the dredded second gear or a gear segment issue.

as far as finding neutral, some bikes are a pain in the ass to find it. On my max its a pain i can find it easier if i'm kicking down to neutral rather than pulling up to it.
hey kj , thats funny that you say that , i just found that out myself this summer , & if i'm still rolling a little ! Still the hardest bike i've ever had !

[maxcruiser]

Hopefully, just need to adjust the shifter downwards - not completely engaging in gear. You do have the new segment on the shift drum, so it should be ok - Generally, the second gear issue is that it slip/pop in & out of 2nd gear under hard accelleration as it gets worst, you will hear some gear bashing and crashing.

As far as finding neutral, the max can be a bitch sometimes. Try getting into neutral while still rolling or blip the throttle a bit will shifting into neutral.

Mike

[maleko89]

Using Yamalube doesn't help. Try Castrol GTX or Shell Rotella and see if that helps.

[coffee_brake]

When's the last time the clutch fluid was replaced? Perhaps clutch plates/discs aren't fully disengaging.


'Scuse my ignorance...I was sure this engine was a single unit construction and there was no seperate clutch fluid? Please tell me what I should check in the clutch...I traded a Harley for this bike and it had seperate fluid for engine, primary, and tranny, but I didn't see anything in the Vmax manual about changing clutch fluid. Are you telling me to pull the plates and clean them and re-soak them?

I've never checked a clutch assembly for damage, what do I look for, other than burnt-looking plates and ridges in the basket walls?

I coudn't ride this bike before I got it, but I checked it over the best I could. I couldn't find the least bit of burnt rubber in the back or any signs of racing. It would be fantastic if this bike really was as clean as it looks linside and out....

I can always move the shifter down a notch and try it again...but I was sure I was pushing through the shifts well enough.

[RazoR333]

My 95 had been sitting in the garage awhile before i bought it from the PO,....
It hard shifted for a few weeks and finding neutral was maddening to say the least, specially at stop lights (where every one is watching)...But once the cob webs were worked out, and Max an i got to know each other a lil better ....things improved ...an oil change, (Rotela 15/40 diesel), helped. Shifting improved,..and engine sounded/ started better.
As for finding neutral,...the throttle blip works the best ,..sounds kewl too.

Letting the clutch out slow while at a stand still with a throttle blip also works well.
I'll cross my fingers for ya,...hope it's that easy.(no engine tear down).

I have all the faith in the guys in here to steer you in the right direction

[maleko89]

I was talking about clutch hydraulic fluid. If you pop the master cylinder cover and diaphagm off is the fluid clear?

[lankeeyankee]

Your clutch fluid is located in the clutch resovoir which is located near the clutch lever. Remove the 2 screws that holds the top on and drain the fluid at the slave cylinder down under the blk rubber cover with a nipple on it located by the gear cover on the engine.
Remove all your clutch fibers and steels.. Check your steels for any purplish burnt discoloaration. and use a mic on the fibers and check the thickness with the OEM specs in the VMAX service manual which can be downloaded free at the VMAXOUTLAW.COM site.

[coffee_brake]

Oh Hell you guys meant the *hydraulic* clutch fluid. Now I feel stupid (shuttup, not a word about it! :biglaugh: ) just ran outside to check the clutch fluid.
OK yeah that's nasty and looks like steak drippings. Due for a change and I still have fresh DOT 4 left from the brakes, can do it tomorow.
The shifter does not have the punch mark in it to align with the shaft, that I know from other motorycles. But it is level to the ground.

I can go into the clutch this week to check the steels and fiber plates, do have access to a good micrometer. Right now I am far too far into the cheap red wine to consider touching anything mechanical. :th_wine:

But the way it's coming out of gear, just as I let off the throttle....wow I hope I didn't just bring home a big pile of doo....

[lankeeyankee]

Not to sound negative,, but sounds as the dogs are shot in your tranny.. There was a reason why the guy didnt want to allow you to test ride it.. That right there is a sign of "RUN FOREST RUN"
Sorry if I burst your bubble thinking it may be something simple, but its not.. might as well finish that red wine tonight and start making some phone calls in the AM.

[coffee_brake]

It was a dealership....

[dannymax]

It was a dealership....

Any chance of a warranty, or even a partial?

[gamorg02]

and if you don't mind me asking why wouldn't they let you test ride it?

[82ndCowboy]

It was a dealership....


Not sure about your state. But do they have a lemon law? Has it been 90 days? Popping out of gear would be a deal breaker and maybe you can get your money back or have them fix it for free.
But then again, a dealer fixing a VMAX is sort of an oxymoron.

I'd first try changing the clutch fluid, then adjusting the shift lever and then see if you still have a problem. Then if it still does it tear open and check the plates fibers and basket.

As for finding neutral, I discovered that pushing it out of 1st or 2nd into neutral is a lot easier than trying to pull it into neutral. The more you do it the easier it is to do.

Good Luck.

[coffee_brake]

Dealership cited insurance reasons. I've never had any dealership, except Harley, allow test rides, even of used machines. To their credit, it doesn't do this under "normal" riding conditions. No lemon law in GA.

It doesn't slip out of second unless I'm on it hard, it has never come out of second unless I was over 6k rpms. That said, the bike is new to me and I'm very aware of my mortality, so I have only "gotten down on it" a few times. So it has done this maybe 5 times since I've had it. At first I thought I wasn't shifting it well enough, but the last two times I made a conscious effort to shift very hard and still, when I let off the throttle, it coasted and I had no power because it had slipped out of gear.

Can't rule out the simple/cheap fixes so of course I'll get new hydraulic fluid in there and pull the clutch plates to measure/inspect and at least look around.

I can't find the post about the shift drum; is there a better set of search terms?

Don't want to re-sell, there's no other bike I want and I don't have any extra cash to put toward a newer model. I wanted a Vmax for years and progressively was more and more dissatisfied with my Harley Dyna Glide. I know that the Harley was worth more than this Vmax but I couldnt' get the Harley sold in this economy. I traded, title for title.
I have recently split the cases on my darn-near-free budget project '82 KZ440 and put it all back together, and let me tell you I don't want to do that again on this even more complex machine.

Crap, I'll probably be making phone calls by this weekend....

[one2dmax]

Yes, it sounds like the trans has crapped out to me. Upside is that it isn't all that hard to do. You can upgrade to an overdrive 5th and install solid engine mounts easily.

The segment will be the newer design but it doesn't sound like it's an issue anyway.

The dogs on the gear are probably worn and will progressively get worse.

Our dealers here will also not let anyone test ride any bikes. It's a bullshit deal and if you have current motorcycle insurance they will cover anyone elses bike you would happen to be riding if you borrowed it.

Once it's in gear the clutch, drum, and forks have no relationship to the problem. If it did not go into gear then I would say they could be bad.

Sean

[gamorg02]

sean knows his shit, i'd listen to him...

in MA i walked into a dealer in summer of 07 and asked to test ride a couple of (used ) ducati's and honda vtx's. I was bored and was pretending i was interested. They also had a vmax there but it wasn't operational. I took the ducati's and honda's out on the roads, no questions asked, all you had to show was a motorcycle license....

i don't know if i'd ever buy a machine (bike/car, etc) without riding it....

now there's no saying u'd get it over 6k rpm's enough to witness the problem but you definitely would have had a better chance.

[4gasem]

Dealers around here have NO issue with used bikes! It's the new ones they won't let you ride.

I rode my SV1000S with one mile on it and the Vmax had one mile on it and it was also NEW. I had ridden a Vmax before so it wasn't anything new to me so I just rode off into the sunset with it.

I WOULD take it back to those guys though.

Sean says it's not HARD to remove the engine and split the cases and such but it isn't EASY either. It's time consuming and heavy as hell, plus you have to have the tools to do it all. Not a lot mind you but more than some have. Get someone to help you unless you don't care about scratching the crap out of the frame and other items. For those that have done it a bunch it's easy.

Good luck!

Chris

[Heretic]

I would for sure go back to the dealer and see what, if anything, they are willing to do about the issue. An honest dealership should stand behind a product they sell, even it was used. They may not fix it for free, but may help you with the cost.

[maxcruiser]

I agree with the other fellows here, bring the bike back to the dealer and see what they will do for you.

As far as doing the job, it is very labour intensive but not extremely difficult job to do - here's a link to give you a better idea on what needs to be done to fix the problem. It's a gen1 venture bike, but the engine block is the same as the vmax.

http://www.venturerider.org/forum/showthread.php?t=508

Hope this helps.

Mike

[coffee_brake]

OK thanks folks. I'm really, really bummed about this. I gave up a perfectly good-running Harley for what appears to be a worn out junker.

I'll call this dealership but I have little hope they'll do anything about it.

Who here has actually pulled an engine themselves and split the cases? The site where the guy tears down the Venture is a great help. Looks like he didn't need a whole pile of specialized tools.

Now...the damage seems to be just on second gear itself?
I need to know what to look for, for parts. Do I need a new second gear, and do I also need a new one of whatever second gear meshes with? What about the shifting forks? Drum? What else?
I'm looking for a place to begin. I see the Venture guy's parts list, but my second gear is just beginning to show this damage. Do I need everything he got?

I *can* do the work in my tiny garage. I *can* get a few riding buddies to help with the lifting. The guy who I sometimes part out bikes for--he's qualified to undercut the gear and I can work off the labor parting out anoher machine.

Folks I'm not prepared to spend a bunch--If this is more than a few hundred bucks then I'm going to have to sell the bike because I just don't have extra money and I refuse to go into dept. Labor, however, is not a problem. If I understand what to do, I willingly will work as long as it takes.

So...I need to find a gear/drum/fork, or fix the one I've got?




Again, thanks for the information, everybody. I'd appreciate anything ya'll have to offer. Sources for used parts, other links to work on this engine, and especially other things to check when I get in there that might be showing wear....IF I get in there.

[lankeeyankee]

I have pulled 4 engines out of my VMAX over the past 6-7 yrs. I have 2 late model transmissions 99 and an 03 with less then 15K on both of them.
Its really hard to tell what parts you need until you split the cases and pull the trans out.
This job isnt for the unexpierenced. Pulling the motor out of a VMAX is back breaking work. Getting the engine back in is a real challenge..
As I stated if your wanting a complete transmission I will sell you the 99 or the 03 for $400.00. complete and I will stand behind it with no shifting problems.
What I would do is have a friend take it to the dealership and use it as a trade in and giv it back to them..
Not to seem like a smart ass. But no test ride no buyer.
Sorry about your luck.. But the clutch has nothing to do with a transmission popping out of gear. Its the dogs which hold the gears in that are rounded and slipping out under deaccleration. That bike has been beat on! I have romped on my VMAX and put it to its test and then some and never had any tranny problems.. But I also know how to shift a motorcycle,.


OK thanks folks. I'm really, really bummed about this. I gave up a perfectly good-running Harley for what appears to be a worn out junker.



Who here has actually pulled an engine themselves and split the cases? The site where the guy tears down the Venture is a great help. Looks like he didn't need a whole pile of specialized tools.

Now...the damage seems to be just on second gear itself?
I need to know what to look for, for parts. Do I need a new second gear, and do I also need a new one of whatever second gear meshes with? What about the shifting forks? Drum? What else?
I'm looking for a place to begin. I see the Venture guy's parts list, but my second gear is just beginning to show this damage. Do I need everything he got?

I *can* do the work in my tiny garage. I *can* get a few riding buddies to help with the lifting. The guy who I sometimes part out bikes for--he's qualified to undercut the gear and I can work off the labor parting out anoher machine.

Folks I'm not prepared to spend a bunch--If this is more than a few hundred bucks then I'm going to have to sell the bike because I just don't have extra money and I refuse to go into dept. Labor, however, is not a problem. If I understand what to do, I willingly will work as long as it takes.

So...I need to find a gear/drum/fork, or fix the one I've got?




Again, thanks for the information, everybody. I'd appreciate anything ya'll have to offer. Sources for used parts, other links to work on this engine, and especially other things to check when I get in there that might be showing wear....IF I get in there.

[maxcruiser]

CB, I have done a few 2nd gear fixes over the years. No special tools needed accept for the for the press needed to take the lock washers off the gear set - the one on the venture site made of wood works great and is cheap. As far as how much it will cost depends on part source and exactly what is damaged - also need an engine gasket set.

If it only pops out of 2nd gear on decelaration (after hard accelaration) than more than likely need shift fork(s) and shift drum. If it pops out under hard accelaration in 2nd gear than 2nd gear dogs are rounded also and need to be backcut or new gear.

This job is 90% labour and 10% parts - I would suggest doing a compression check b/4 starting to see condition of the engine itself b/4 considering doing the tranny work.

Mike

[coffee_brake]

Thanks Lankee and Mike. Lankee, I may have to contact you or Sean for some parts.

I'll talk to my buddy the mechanic today. He mostly works on the older bikes that the dealership won't touch and has nothing to gain by BSing me, I want him to ride the bike. I can do the compression check today too. But the dang thing really seems to be in good shape, I can't find a rounded fastener or cut wiring or a single chunk of burnt rubber underneath. It was obvious that the coolant and final drive had been maintained. No signs of neglect, other than the mud I pulled out of the clutch MC reservoir. So maybe it was just piss-poor riding. I've adjusted the shifter down a bit, just to eliminate the "duh"-fix factor. When the dude rides it, he'll tell me absolutely for sure where the problem is.

I have split the cases on one machine, my $50 project (at least until this Vmax showed up) KZ440. But I can lift that whole twin motor myself. There was nothing wrong with the bottom end of it but I got the thing to learn with, so I did take it all the way down, measuring everything for service limits. Top end rebuild, put it back together and it's running and shifting just fine and waiting to be re-wired. It was going to be on the streets by Spring, until this tranny episode.
So I think I'm not necessarily comfortable with this bigger job, but not a babe in the woods about it either.

Thanks so much for the information. Now I know what to do next, see the condition of the rest of the motor and then price out parts.

Lankee I like your suggestion to trade it in, I wish I had cash to put with it on a better Vmax, there's not a single other motorcycle in the world I want.
They already sold my Harley but I don't want it back anyway.

[one2dmax]

It will cost more then a few hundred bucks but it can be done on the cheap if you only want to fix the worst parts.

There are two sides to the dogs, the upshift and downshift sides. The downsift side will be what is worn if it drops off when you let off the throttle. There will be other wear on other gears too.

Removing the engine is very easy if you know the tricks. Don't use the manual procedure as you will fight it. It can even be done with one person with the right tricks and tools.

You need:
Basic 3/8th Socket Set (I like deep sockets myself). In that set you will mostly use: 10, 12, 14, 15, 17, and 19.
1/2 Inch socket to get the swingarm pivots out (29mm??)
#2 and #3 phillps screwdriver
Basic Pliers
Wrench Set (same sizes as note in the 3/8th sockets).
ATV type jack or Pair of Jackstands.
Floor Jack.
Allen Wrench Set (plus I like to use allen sockets)
Torx bit (don't remember the size right now)
Impact Screwdriver and #3 phillps bit Socket (the type you hit with a hammer so you need a hammer too).

That should about do it other then the press if your gear you need to replace is under the tension clips on the secondary shaft. Air tools will help speed the process up but not needed.

Likely it will need the shift forks, shift fork shafts, possible shift drum, 2 gears (the bad gear plus the gear it mates in to). All the cover gaskets, I like to replace the couple of seals (shift shaft and clutch pushrod). I don't have my list right now but the most expensive parts are the gears and shift drum.

We do offer the rebuild services and even have a few different methods for shipping. But you can probably do most of the work yourself. Of course the other options would be to replace the engine but you don't always have good luck with used ones (my luck has been better then 50/50). We also offer larger engine conversions for more power too.

Me and a friend can have an engine out from scratch in under an hour. Then apart withing another hour. It takes longer to go back together. I don't even know how many we do in a year. I do it everytime I build an engine too so it goes in and out.

If you want more info feel free to call or email me for some tips on engine removal and dissassembly. Of course I can send an email with one of our 1300 build sheet costs too. I do currently have one 85 engine on hand that needs a trans (already apart and waiting to see what any potential customer would want since we have overdrive options too).

Fargo (AKA RagingMain) can tell you how easy the engine removal is. To me the hardest part of the repair is cleaning up the old gaskets from the side covers.

one2dmax@aol.com
Sean Morley

[coffee_brake]

Sean you are a scholar and a gentleman, excellent post.

The shifter was not aligned like it was supposed to be by the manual. Last night I put it right and flushed the mud out of the clutch fluid and didn't sleep very well, worrying.

This morning I test rode just to make sure moving the shifter didn't help. Well, I think it did. I was positive I was pushing all the way through for each shift but now, I can't make it pop out of gear on decel at all. I will hold back on my joy, however, because I *can* feel the engine buck the instant I shut the throttle. Is this normal? It's not clunking, I can just feel a fast hard flexing in it.

I got the motor a little warm before I tried pulling it to 8k rpms, and then I kept trying until the motor was good and hot--it never slipped out of first, second or third. I never got it into fourth or fifth at high RPMs. In fact, I never have yet because now is not the time of year to hit triple digits in my over-enforced area.

If the engine movement is a sign of things to come, then I can start saving up for the inevitable, and I see that I *can* do it myself with what Sean just posted, it's no different than the 440 project, just heavier and way more stuff to remove (and a lot more valuable of course). As of this morning, the shifter's a little hard to reach with my boot, but second gear is working like it should.

Should I celebrate, or start saving up for parts?


Many, many, MANY thanks for all this help, I'm surprised over and over how you folks are willing to help...

[maleko89]

Thanks Lankee and Mike. Lankee, I may have to contact you or Sean for some parts.

I'll talk to my buddy the mechanic today. He mostly works on the older bikes that the dealership won't touch and has nothing to gain by BSing me, I want him to ride the bike. I can do the compression check today too. But the dang thing really seems to be in good shape, I can't find a rounded fastener or cut wiring or a single chunk of burnt rubber underneath. It was obvious that the coolant and final drive had been maintained. No signs of neglect, other than the mud I pulled out of the clutch MC reservoir. So maybe it was just piss-poor riding. I've adjusted the shifter down a bit, just to eliminate the "duh"-fix factor. When the dude rides it, he'll tell me absolutely for sure where the problem is.

I have split the cases on one machine, my $50 project (at least until this Vmax showed up) KZ440. But I can lift that whole twin motor myself. There was nothing wrong with the bottom end of it but I got the thing to learn with, so I did take it all the way down, measuring everything for service limits. Top end rebuild, put it back together and it's running and shifting just fine and waiting to be re-wired. It was going to be on the streets by Spring, until this tranny episode.
So I think I'm not necessarily comfortable with this bigger job, but not a babe in the woods about it either.

Thanks so much for the information. Now I know what to do next, see the condition of the rest of the motor and then price out parts.

Lankee I like your suggestion to trade it in, I wish I had cash to put with it on a better Vmax, there's not a single other motorcycle in the world I want.
They already sold my Harley but I don't want it back anyway.

Coffee, it could've been caused by improper shifting. A lot of higher rpm shifting is hard on the tranny.

[KJShover]

I can just feel a fast hard flexing in it.



These puppies to tend to flex on occasion, thats why some use braced swingarms, solid motor mounts, frame braces or all of the above.

Here is a couple pics showing the Dale Walker frame brace and the Cycle One Off braced swingarm. Sean puts out a fine braced swingarm as well as a few others out there, so there are options for ya.

[one2dmax]

I would drive it and see how it does. The driveline has a lot of lash in it which is normal. You can inspect the rear diff to see if the pinion nut is broken which is a common issue too. If the trans does start to act up again then you can start saving. Either way I would say that the trans has some wear and will eventually need to be repaired.

The engine weighs over 230 lbs but will cost you more to rebuild then the 440 will (doing an equal amount of rebuilding). It also puts out more HP per cubic inch then the 440 does. It will also not be worth as much if you have the correct engine for the correct car but it's also cheaper to buy the bike then the car so it's all relative (keep in mind I have more then 30 old musclecars too).

Sean

[coffee_brake]

Fantastic. If I don't need to blow all my cash on tranny parts, then I can get one of Sean's seats!

So now I'm wondering, how do you folks, especially Lankee since you mentioned it first, go about shifting the Vmax? I never really thought about learning riding habits that would make life easier for the tranny. I'd like to, to prevent having to replace second gear any sooner than necessary.


Yesterday I parted out a 600cc Yamaha engine (to pay for last week's maintenance stuff for the Vmax). The bike went down with tranny problems and I could see just how bad the shifter forks were gouged, second gear dogs all rounded off. Perfectly good motor otherwise.
I don't want this to happen to any of my bikes. How can I take it easy on the tranny and still ride the bike well?

How do you people shift?

[82ndCowboy]

When my body gets thrown backwards at take off I have to pull myself forward using all my arms and leg strength, that causes my foot to pull on the the shifter, which causes it to shift into second, and then the process repeats itself 3 more times.

:eusa_dance:

One of these days I'll learn to let up on the throttle.

[coffee_brake]

Smartass.......













:looser::looser: :looser:

[82ndCowboy]

Yeah... sorry... I couldn't resist!

The Captain made me type it!