Another %^*&$%##%% Clutch Bleed Job from Hell

95spfldmax said:

amen, brotha!!!!!

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+1

So I'm stuck in the middle of this situation. I started with a new master (FJR) and new Galfer stainless line. I pushed fluid up from the bottom with a syringe from wal-mart (that may have been my mistake). It went right up to the master, so I thought all was good. Put the lid on... and.... NOTHING. So I proceeded to bleed the usual way (twist, squeeze, twist, release). I've got some leve now, and I can hear the clutch pack moving. I'm just wondering if I should have this first inch plus of lever travel before I meet resistance with the FJR master. I'm going to let it sit all closed up tonight and see if I can get it to work better tomorrow. I was doing so well today getting stuff put back together, too.

Couple things I've had good luck with....use the pointed tip on your Mighty Vac and pull thru the tiny holes in the bottom of the master....and try bleeding the slave....remove it with the line attached, loosen the bleeder and push the piston all the way back in. It's a pain in the ass but can be done.

I was thinking I might just mighty vac it all out through the bleeder and start over. I'm gonna try that first before I destroy another middle gear gasket.

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i usually fill the slave cyl to the top & then install the bleeder screw, bench-bleed the master cyl, and connect everything. I use a syringe to reverse-bleed the system through the slave bleeder. As-long as the system is functioning properly, this has always worked.

I have discovered bad slave cyl's or internally-bleeding masters, or a low fluid level in the master where my positioning of the bars kept allowing the fluid to expose one of the holes in the floor of the master and allow infiltration of air (not on a VMax, but another Yamaha). That happened on a reservoir where I filled it halfway, but it wasn't enough, and on a bike I had owned for a long time, and had serviced the clutch multiple times before. Maybe a 'senior moment,' I dunno, but once I filled it to just-below the cover gasket & bled it again, no-more problems.

I hope you get it to work for you, or whatever method you use.

I knew this thread was well titled when I made it up!!

But the advice of reverse bleeding here did work for me right away after two days of frustration trying conventional method. But on my first try and about 3-4 syringes worth of fluid, a big pocket of stuff (can't really describe it....dirt/air bubbles) came out and presto........Maybe I just got lucky........but I know this......i'm already cringing for next time I have to do it.....worse job on the Max IMHO....... :damn angry:

Maybe there's just slop at the beginning of the travel? It's making pressure, but not until a bit of Travel gets taken up. Maybe I'll try Fire-medic's way later.

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I was reminded to try the reverse-flush by another poster years-ago on here. I had done it before for the first time in the 1980's on my KZ1000's and had always had good luck with using my Mityvac in the traditional method, but when presented with a difficult bleed, I resorted to it after hearing about it, and it solved the problem.

Probably because of the convoluted path to the slave, the hydraulic line system has a good chance of developing 'pockets' for crud and air pockets along the clutch hydraulics. Either a total disassembly and check of all components is needed if you have ongoing problems, or more frustrating experimentation is the outcome. If you get a "bit of lever," but only when relatively-close to the handlebar, then I'd say you still have air pockets which need to be purged. The reverse-bleed helps best to remove the stubborn air pockets in my experience.

Changing the fluid every year helps to remove the impurities and air, as-well as the water absorbed into the hydraulic fluid, which causes corrosion in the sealed system.

if it hasn't already been mentioned, in conjunction with the common approach and everything else that has been suggested, i also pull in the lever, zip-tie it to the grip and let it rest overnight

Regards from my Taptalking Hercules Android

OK. what syringe are you guys using. I got a big plastic one from the auto section of walmart. IT'S AWFUL!!! I'm trying to use 1/4" ID tubing, and it either won't stay on the syringe or it pops off the bleeder. I can't meter out the pressure without it sticking and then it tries to just blast fluid everywhere. Maybe I should have just stayed with what I had last night. Now I have an "empty" clutch line and master. I'm just trying to push fluid up from the bottom.

Fire-Medic, do you just let the fluid sit in the hole where the bleeder was to load the slave before you start or is there some other way to get it to seep in there. I think it's getting blocked by a little air bubble or something.

davesax36 said:

OK. what syringe are you guys using. I got a big plastic one from the auto section of walmart. IT'S AWFUL!!! I'm trying to use 1/4" ID tubing, and it either won't stay on the syringe or it pops off the bleeder. I can't meter out the pressure without it sticking and then it tries to just blast fluid everywhere. Maybe I should have just stayed with what I had last night. Now I have an "empty" clutch line and master. I'm just trying to push fluid up from the bottom.

Fire-Medic, do you just let the fluid sit in the hole where the bleeder was to load the slave before you start or is there some other way to get it to seep in there. I think it's getting blocked by a little air bubble or something.

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I use a short piece of clear plastic tubing and a syringe I buy at the pharmacist's, you don't need a prescription for a syringe, it's a 60 ml (CC) syringe w/a conical tip on it which accepts the clear plastic tubing I.D. tightly.

If I am installing a rebuilt slave or a new one, I fill it w/fluid on the bench, hand tighten the bleeder, and install it. I have some rubber plugs I use for the extension to the clutch line, friction-fit. Once the slave is bolted up, I remove the rubber plug for the stock rigid line, though you may have a SS flex line, I think, should be no-difference. Connect it. I usually leave the master cyl dry and just begin using the syringe to push fluid into the system from the slave bleeder. I use a teeny hose clamp to hold the tubing to the bleeder, and loosen the syringe so the tubing and bleeder can revolve either open or closed, depending on what I am trying to do w/it. Close the bleeder if you need to re-fill the syringe. Remove the syringe from the end of the tubing, and fill the syringe, and when you re-connect the filled syringe, if there are air bubbles in the tubing, a bit of 'pulling-out' pressure on the syringe stopper (the plunger) will allow the bubbles to move into the syringe body, and float to the top, leaving you w/a full body of fluid and no bubbles. Open the bleeder valve again, and continue to push fluid up the hydraulic system until you see the fluid start to accumulate in the master cylinder reservoir. This will usually be announced by a multitude of tiny "fizzy" bubbles in the fluid, just what you want, as the fluid is removing the air in the system!

Keep doing this until you don't see the "fizzy" bubbles any more, an indication that you have purged the air from the system. It may be necessary to remove some fluid from the master cyl reservoir if it fills, and you still have "fizzy" bubbles. At some point, you should have fluid and pretty-much no bubbles coming through the big & small holes in the floor of the master cyl. You should close the slave bleeder, and start to pump the lever, which should very-quickly show you to have some immediate resistance, and you should have the sense that the clutch slave is moving the pressure plate into disengagement. CAUTION! If you pull the lever w/the reservoir top off, and it has bled then you will get a geyser of fluid from the tiny front hole closest to the banjo bolt! If you carefully pull the clutch lever, you can see the geyser, and just don't pull it rapidly which will shoot the brake fluid everywhere. I usually cram a bunch of paper towels around the master cyl reservoir and replace them as required. You can always replace the cap which is probably the best way to do it, be careful how-much torque you use the tighten the screws. I usually have a bunch of replacement screws on-hand for the reservoir cap. A tapered flat-head Phillips screw or an allen-head will work, and I have used a hex-head machine screw in a pinch. If you have problems with the Phillips head screws, I cut a slot w/my trusty Dremel & a cut-off blade, and use a good-fitting slot head screwdriver.

Now you pump the lever to a point of pressure, and open the slave bleeder, as you would in a traditional bleeding, and feel the lever go to the handlebar-DO NOT RELEASE THE CLUTCH LEVER! Hold the lever to the handlebar, and tighten the slave bleeder. Now you can release the lever. Do this several times and every time you do, in the clear plastic tubing and the syringe still connected to the bleeder, you should see a solid column of brake fluid slightly-moving with your efforts. By now, you should have a firm clutch lever w/very-little free-play, and a total release of the clutch pressure plate. This concludes your work. Make sure you clean the brake fluid thoroughly. Discard the used brake fluid, never return it to the container!

That's how I do it, and I have pretty-much given-up on trying to rebuild master cyl's, I just buy a new one if the old one is bleeding internally.

Fire-medic said:

That's how I do it, and I have pretty-much given-up on trying to rebuild master cyl's, I just buy a new one if the old one is bleeding internally.

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Bravo, sir..........nicely.....or actually....precisely put......and we have a new Maxocabulary word in "fizzy bubbles".....:biglaugh:.....sounds like it needs it's own jingle.....:whistlin:....:eusa_dance:........and UNLIKE carb chains.....fizzy bubbles actually exist!! :th_laugh2:

Well it feels a little strange, but I've got complete clutch disengagement. Uptake begins within an inch of the bar, and it's very easy to pull even with the PCW spring. So pretty much the opposite of stock. I'll probably try to reverse bleed it again, but it's certainly functional right now.

davesax36 said:

Well it feels a little strange, but I've got complete clutch disengagement. Uptake begins within an inch of the bar, and it's very easy to pull even with the PCW spring. So pretty much the opposite of stock. I'll probably try to reverse bleed it again, but it's certainly functional right now.

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Glad to hear your making some progress!!

Yeah. It's almost like I can adjust the uptake position with fluid... Although, I'm sure that's not supposed to happen. I feel like I want the slack before the lever gets pulled in rather than having the clutch start separating as soon as I touch the lever. Stock, it was way out at the end of the lever travel before the clutch engaged.

davesax36 said:

Yeah. It's almost like I can adjust the uptake position with fluid... Although, I'm sure that's not supposed to happen. I feel like I want the slack before the lever gets pulled in rather than having the clutch start separating as soon as I touch the lever. Stock, it was way out at the end of the lever travel before the clutch engaged.

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It sounds like you were just used to it being not right......After some miles i'm sure you'll adapt to it being correct now :biglaugh:

My setup, which is stock w/the PCW OEM Yamaha extra disc & the heavy-duty diaphragm, has resistance quickly and releases completely well-before the handlebar.

Fire-medic said:

My setup, which is stock w/the PCW OEM Yamaha extra disc & the heavy-duty diaphragm, has resistance quickly and releases completely well-before the handlebar.

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That's why I'm trying to get it right. I'm pretty sure there should be resistance a bit sooner. It almost feels like my brake lever, but I'm also pretty sure my brakes should feel a bit tighter.

Hey everyone, hope all is well!!! So I was going to try the suggestions here for bleeding out the old fluid, when I place the clear tube on the bleeder and broke it loose, I noticed the bubbles rapidly filling the tube. Well I can only assume I did not have a good seal on the bleeder and quickly closed the bleeder. So I topped off the M/C not much was pulled down, but none the less at least half of the M/C. So I tightened things up, started the bike and wanted to look for leaks. When I pull the clutch in now and shift to 1st (while on centerstand) and the real wheel lunged forward and spun. The tire does not continue to rotate, but I don't remember it ever doing this. Should I be concerned?

its a safety mechanism. the bike should shut down when in gear and on the centerstand...at least thats what i remember reading when i did the same thing

Regards from my Taptalking Hercules Android