Evolution of the Venture-Vmax Trans
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joelyons50023
Well-Known Member
what all years of venture trans fit in the vmax or are they all swapable.
The complete shafts are interchangeable as a pair, and there are a few gears that can swap on the shafts. no real advantage to the normal gear swapping other then the Royal Star Venture which we only use 5th and that requires modification to work (it will not just slip on and work right).
Sean
Sean
pegscraper
Well-Known Member
They will all swap as long as you use the matching shift drum and forks.
The Venture and Vmax Transmissions are very similar for most years. I need to clarify that the upper picture of the Venture transmissions shows the 83-93 Ventures. In 96 they changed the transmissions to have similar dog designs to the Vmax so they would normally be more interchangeable as far as just a gear is concerned but note that in most cases you can't just move a gear over without some modifications.
I do believe the shift drums and shift forks are close to a direct interchange but not 100% sure what the difference was.
Shift Forks/Drum:
These are the same (with exception of the improved drum in 99 for the vmax).
85-07 and 83-93 Ventures.
96 and Up Ventures used similar base numbers with the first 3 digits of the part number being different (26H vs 4NK). I know we have used the newer 5th gears (with modifications to the dogs) in the vmax transmissions and shift fork with no problems. Again, I do not know what difference there is with the shift forks/drum for the newer ventures/royal stars when compared to the vmax. They will interchange as a complete set without any issues (gears and shift parts). Many of the small parts on the drum are the exact same numbers so it's hard to say what the design difference (if any) is.
Gears/Ratios:
The Vmax has used the same ratio for the entire run. The 83-93 Ventures use very similar ratios as the Vmax but with different tooth counts on the shafts. The difference is minimal with first gear being lower (quicker acceleration) and fifth gear being taller (more top speed). Again the difference is very marginal and not worth worrying about. You can update a venture trans to a Vmax gearset by changing out the 2-3 gear and both 5th gears. In some cases (especially when using the later mentioned Royal Star fifth) you have to do some additional undercut work to the dogs/slots of the fifth gear to mate properly with the 2nd wheel gear.
85-07 Vmax Ratio:
1st - 17/43 = .395
2nd - 22/39 = .564
3rd - 23/31 = .742
4th - 26/28 = .929
5th - 28/26 = 1.077 (note this is a little bit of an overdrive since the ratio is greater then 1:1)
83-93 Venture Ratio:
1st - 15/39 = .385
2nd - 22/39 = .564
3rd - 23/31 = .742
4th - 29/31 = .935
5th - 32/29 = 1.103 (also an overdrive that is slightly more then the vmax)
you can see by the above gearing that there is little difference and 2nd and 3rd gear are even identical. You can't just use a vmax gear there though since the engagement type is completely different (unless you use the early recall vmax type). I'm not really sure why Yamaha decided to do so little changes other then to maybe try and beef up the gear body to take the extra power.
96-98 Ventures Ventures
96-01 Royal Stars (BlVD, Classic, and Deluxe) - Not Royal Star Ventures:
1st - 16/39 = .410
2nd - 19/30 = .633
3rd - 25/29 = .862
4th - 32/29 = 1.103
5th - 28/21 = 1.333 (note this is the overdrive we use on our conversions and is why there is such a difference in cruise RPM's).
99-01 Ventures/Royal Star Ventures
02-Up All Models Royal Stars/Ventures:
1st - 17/43 = .395
2nd - 19/31 = .613
3rd - 25/30 = .833
4th - 25/24 = 1.042
5th - 28/22 = 1.273 (note this would also be an overdrive but has a completely different qty of dogs that prevent it from being used at all - 3 dogs vs 4 - unless more gears were also used.
I am thinking it would be nice to try a custom mix of gears to maybe get a more ideal combination but this may or may not be possible. I'd want first gear to run out longer so I would want the 86-93 Venture 1st gear. So with that selection I would want a longer 2nd gear also but I will have to also use the same 3rd gear from the donating bike (since the pinion gear is a 2-3 combo gear). So I would want to use the 02 and up Star bikes 2nd and 3rd gears. Since the dogs are not even close to the Vmax gears I will end up being stuck with the 5th gears from the 02 and up Star bikes. This isn't all that bad with the overdrive it has too. Maybe not as high but still an improvement over the stock gearing. BUT, the killer here is that 4th gear mates to 3rd gear and the ideal 4th (Vmax or Even Venture) will not mate to the newer Venture gears. I may search around and see if I can get a set of gears from each engine style and see what is available out there and look at them in person. The gearing noted in my wish list would be longer first, second, and third, with a short 4th followed by the overdrive 5th.
Sean
I do believe the shift drums and shift forks are close to a direct interchange but not 100% sure what the difference was.
Shift Forks/Drum:
These are the same (with exception of the improved drum in 99 for the vmax).
85-07 and 83-93 Ventures.
96 and Up Ventures used similar base numbers with the first 3 digits of the part number being different (26H vs 4NK). I know we have used the newer 5th gears (with modifications to the dogs) in the vmax transmissions and shift fork with no problems. Again, I do not know what difference there is with the shift forks/drum for the newer ventures/royal stars when compared to the vmax. They will interchange as a complete set without any issues (gears and shift parts). Many of the small parts on the drum are the exact same numbers so it's hard to say what the design difference (if any) is.
Gears/Ratios:
The Vmax has used the same ratio for the entire run. The 83-93 Ventures use very similar ratios as the Vmax but with different tooth counts on the shafts. The difference is minimal with first gear being lower (quicker acceleration) and fifth gear being taller (more top speed). Again the difference is very marginal and not worth worrying about. You can update a venture trans to a Vmax gearset by changing out the 2-3 gear and both 5th gears. In some cases (especially when using the later mentioned Royal Star fifth) you have to do some additional undercut work to the dogs/slots of the fifth gear to mate properly with the 2nd wheel gear.
85-07 Vmax Ratio:
1st - 17/43 = .395
2nd - 22/39 = .564
3rd - 23/31 = .742
4th - 26/28 = .929
5th - 28/26 = 1.077 (note this is a little bit of an overdrive since the ratio is greater then 1:1)
83-93 Venture Ratio:
1st - 15/39 = .385
2nd - 22/39 = .564
3rd - 23/31 = .742
4th - 29/31 = .935
5th - 32/29 = 1.103 (also an overdrive that is slightly more then the vmax)
you can see by the above gearing that there is little difference and 2nd and 3rd gear are even identical. You can't just use a vmax gear there though since the engagement type is completely different (unless you use the early recall vmax type). I'm not really sure why Yamaha decided to do so little changes other then to maybe try and beef up the gear body to take the extra power.
96-98 Ventures Ventures
96-01 Royal Stars (BlVD, Classic, and Deluxe) - Not Royal Star Ventures:
1st - 16/39 = .410
2nd - 19/30 = .633
3rd - 25/29 = .862
4th - 32/29 = 1.103
5th - 28/21 = 1.333 (note this is the overdrive we use on our conversions and is why there is such a difference in cruise RPM's).
99-01 Ventures/Royal Star Ventures
02-Up All Models Royal Stars/Ventures:
1st - 17/43 = .395
2nd - 19/31 = .613
3rd - 25/30 = .833
4th - 25/24 = 1.042
5th - 28/22 = 1.273 (note this would also be an overdrive but has a completely different qty of dogs that prevent it from being used at all - 3 dogs vs 4 - unless more gears were also used.
I am thinking it would be nice to try a custom mix of gears to maybe get a more ideal combination but this may or may not be possible. I'd want first gear to run out longer so I would want the 86-93 Venture 1st gear. So with that selection I would want a longer 2nd gear also but I will have to also use the same 3rd gear from the donating bike (since the pinion gear is a 2-3 combo gear). So I would want to use the 02 and up Star bikes 2nd and 3rd gears. Since the dogs are not even close to the Vmax gears I will end up being stuck with the 5th gears from the 02 and up Star bikes. This isn't all that bad with the overdrive it has too. Maybe not as high but still an improvement over the stock gearing. BUT, the killer here is that 4th gear mates to 3rd gear and the ideal 4th (Vmax or Even Venture) will not mate to the newer Venture gears. I may search around and see if I can get a set of gears from each engine style and see what is available out there and look at them in person. The gearing noted in my wish list would be longer first, second, and third, with a short 4th followed by the overdrive 5th.
Sean
chainednitromaxx
Well-Known Member
wow, that is alot of info you got there stored in the head.Man, outstanding you know all opions .OK this is my question,John Gainey has been setting my tranny up with the old 85 Max set up in which the teeth are the engagemnt.It has been lasting ALOT BETTER with the nos and looking at the set ups the second is much more beefy.I always completely break the teeth off completly on 2nd gear teeth,1 to 3 teeth under some 1.30s 60 ft.
All that being said ,i wonder if it is possible to set a tranny up with venture parts to use the second gear from the venture(teeth style engagement) since the old 85 max gears are no longer available.John is down to almost none left,he only lets the guys like me that really need them use them and they are almost gone!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :ummm:
All that being said ,i wonder if it is possible to set a tranny up with venture parts to use the second gear from the venture(teeth style engagement) since the old 85 max gears are no longer available.John is down to almost none left,he only lets the guys like me that really need them use them and they are almost gone!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :ummm:
chainednitromaxx
Well-Known Member
I forgot to mention,John tells me to be carefull with the 4 to 5th shift to try not to speed shift it with my set up .i have not figured that out yet as of why
You could use the Venture 2nd gears and I haven't looked to see if the vmax fifth gear will continue to work. I think since the tooth count for 2nd is the same I bet it will work just fine getting the 2-3 wheel gear only. I have a few of them on hand and probably can still be bought new from Yamaha since they covered a lot of years.
Sean
Sean
Probably having to cut the dogs too much which is making it soft. There is an outer shell of hard metal with the softer metal inside. Some undercutters (not sure that PCW is one of them) will simply undercut a gear to get it ready for service again. The gear will look great but have a very short life. When we do the undercut they will add metal to the gear before cutting it.
Sean
Sean
namyzzo
Well-Known Member
The newer parts usually are better from yamaha's engineering standpoint. not completely sure why they are different though. You will want to keep the worm gears the same from your 86 so you won't have to reshim to match the cases.
Sean
Sean
modnrod
Well-Known Member
Hi everyone. Stoopid question from a Vmax noob. I'd send Sean another email, but he's probably had enough already, so I'll ask here instead (at least that way it's 50/50 that he will be patient and polite!)
And thanks Sean, for the email reply's.:clapping:
I've seen the picture of the Venture clusters, but have no idea what I'm looking at, sorry. My '87 jumps out of 2nd, but only occasionally, don't care, bought it anyway, will fix myself. I 1st thought do it all at once, back-cut the lot, no jumping, nice and new and smooth. But after reading the threads one of the racers (the NASTY slick one.....) says don't back-cut due to weakening.
Do I back-cut?
Is the Venture cluster a drop-in?
Is the Venture cluster stronger than the std '87 Vmax?
Is it true I can roll the motor onto it's head, then pull off all plates, etc, then replace the cluster/gears/selector's easier, without taking off the top end?
Has anyone used the Factory Pro "shifter STARS" on their Vmax, are they an improvement, are they stronger?
Sorry bout all the qusestions at once, but by the time you read it I'll be in bed, and vice-versa.
Eventually the drivetrain will have to take about 150+ weight-shifted horsepower, with either a soft Lock-Up or autoclutch, so might as well do it only once.:moped:
And thanks Sean, for the email reply's.:clapping:
I've seen the picture of the Venture clusters, but have no idea what I'm looking at, sorry. My '87 jumps out of 2nd, but only occasionally, don't care, bought it anyway, will fix myself. I 1st thought do it all at once, back-cut the lot, no jumping, nice and new and smooth. But after reading the threads one of the racers (the NASTY slick one.....) says don't back-cut due to weakening.
Do I back-cut?
Is the Venture cluster a drop-in?
Is the Venture cluster stronger than the std '87 Vmax?
Is it true I can roll the motor onto it's head, then pull off all plates, etc, then replace the cluster/gears/selector's easier, without taking off the top end?
Has anyone used the Factory Pro "shifter STARS" on their Vmax, are they an improvement, are they stronger?
Sorry bout all the qusestions at once, but by the time you read it I'll be in bed, and vice-versa.
Eventually the drivetrain will have to take about 150+ weight-shifted horsepower, with either a soft Lock-Up or autoclutch, so might as well do it only once.:moped:
If you want to do it only once then you want to stick to the vmax trans and undercut it. If the undercut is done right it's stronger and better. The OEM trans is undercut though only slightly. Some underdcutters take work gears and cut them back until they get the nice sharp edges that are required. This tends to cut through the case hardened outer shell and exposes the softer material. This looks great but as you can see only allows for quicker wear. If it's done right any gears with excessive wear has to be hard welded back up then the undercut performed. Typically 2-3 gears on every trans we do has to be welded up before cutting. It's an extra cost but already figured in the price. I have yet to take out a trans I felt comfortable putting back in without any work. Some are usable and they may work for many miles. But, it's not easy or cheap to take it apart again so do you really want to jack around and try to save a few bucks to only have to do it again.
The venture trans is basically similar to the early vmax trans. Not quite as desireable though it works fine for most. We've not had too much trouble with them even in the 1300 builds. Though if we do any trans work I update it to the vmax parts (and many like to add in the overdrive option).
When we do trans work we roll it on it's top as you noted. Pull off all the side covers (the valve covers don't even have to come off though it's a great time to check valve clearance). A few other parts have to come off (like the slave cylinder for the clutch) and some retaining straps, then you can pop it apart.
The Venture cluster is a drop in. I do usually try to keep the vmax output gear if possible to maintain the already setup shim work. We've done it both ways though without any real issues (even without reshimming).
Not sure about the FP shift stars. I can't see them needing anything better then OEM. I do suggest to upgrade the shift segment if not the whole shift drum (which includes the segment if you buy the newer drum).
No problem with the questions and you can email me anytime. This info might help someone else too so good post.
Sean
The venture trans is basically similar to the early vmax trans. Not quite as desireable though it works fine for most. We've not had too much trouble with them even in the 1300 builds. Though if we do any trans work I update it to the vmax parts (and many like to add in the overdrive option).
When we do trans work we roll it on it's top as you noted. Pull off all the side covers (the valve covers don't even have to come off though it's a great time to check valve clearance). A few other parts have to come off (like the slave cylinder for the clutch) and some retaining straps, then you can pop it apart.
The Venture cluster is a drop in. I do usually try to keep the vmax output gear if possible to maintain the already setup shim work. We've done it both ways though without any real issues (even without reshimming).
Not sure about the FP shift stars. I can't see them needing anything better then OEM. I do suggest to upgrade the shift segment if not the whole shift drum (which includes the segment if you buy the newer drum).
No problem with the questions and you can email me anytime. This info might help someone else too so good post.
Sean
modnrod
Well-Known Member
Thanks Sean. I'll find out how bad it's gonna get a couple of weeks from now, 1st round coming up!
Needless to say, I'm taking it in on the ute, not riding it. That way I can practise getting into it a bit (and I need the practise!), but still be sure of getting the 200miles home afterwards.:biglaugh:
Needless to say, I'm taking it in on the ute, not riding it. That way I can practise getting into it a bit (and I need the practise!), but still be sure of getting the 200miles home afterwards.:biglaugh:
Venture_man
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One2dmax, you seem to be the vmax tranny guru. I have a 1983 venture with 102k miles and it is slipping out of second gear. I purchased a good used motor with 30k but i would like to fix second gear issue before i install the motor. The new motor isnt an 85 as you commented on as being fixed. I have my eye on a complete trsnny on ebay from an 85 that had 25k miles. Your input would be much appreciated.
Venture_man
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email me at [email protected]
The 86-93 1300 Ventures continued with the gear dog design that was recalled for the Vmax. They do hold up depending on how it's ridden. If you really wanted to get the ideal you would swap to the Vmax setup but it's not 100% something that is necessary to do.
Bobvmax123
Active Member
How about swapping out the rear shaft drive gear from the Venture to the Vmax . I heard it adds to top speed and improves gas mileage. Maybe hit 150miles on a tank . The Vmax has torque to handle the change in rearing. Anyone tried it? mpg?
Roughly 10% better fuel mileage. MAYBE 150 if you're bike is doing very very well for MPG to begin with but most won't see that. Slightly slower acceleration but less cruise RPM. 3 tenths of a second at the track (about 8 bike lengths) so if you're wanting max acceleration then it's not going to do that for you. Sort of like having the vmax be riding around in 9th gear while the venture seems like it is in 10th gear.
I have an overdrive 5th that is 23% ratio change but not nearly as easy to swap around as the Venture diff is.
Overall if you're not racing it then the change can be nice since it reduces that RPM on the highway (again by about 10%)
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