Knuck-Pan-Shovel-Evo-Twin Cam-Milwaukee Eight

So, bike news worthy of disseminating. H-D releases a four valve per cylinder new big twin engine design.



Different versions, oil-cooled (107 cu.in.), water-cooled (partially) and 114 cu.in.

You may not like them, but H-D is the biggest seller in the USA. Go anywhere in the world, and they're a brand that is instantly recognizable among motorcycle lovers, and very coveted.
http://www.motorcycledaily.com/2016/08/harley-makes-new-milwaukee-eight-engines-official-with-video/

And they went back to a single cam...never liked the twin cam. My '99 was the last single for the Evo.

92.5 Horsepower on the 107 cubic incher.
100.6 HP on the 114 cubic incher

They need to build a big twin with a Sportster cam setup.

To little to late. Polaris already sealed their fate, just a matter of time now.

Personally I wish Harley the best. They are masters at branding their product and have been able to stay alive for over 100 years.

They have a good product, that is comparable to most other motorcycle mfg'ers. The only flaw that I see is the premium pricing strategy that they continue to insist on.

Mike

maxcruiser said:

Personally I wish Harley the best. They are masters at branding their product and have been able to stay alive for over 100 years.

They have a good product, that is comparable to most other motorcycle mfg'ers. The only flaw that I see is the premium pricing strategy that they continue to insist on.

Mike

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They are absolutely masters of marketing, no question about that. From what I can see they are ~20 years behind the curve on technology but still commend a premium price. Presenting 4 valves per cyl as their latest concession is pretty brazen and I think younger buyers are definitely smelling a rat. It's like buying a brand new S Class and having the salesperson beaming with pride while telling you that they now come with radial tires. Aside from being obsolete, HD reliability ratings are down there at the bottom with BMW (hurts to say, I love boxers).

As an American company I wish none of this were true but I'm seeing hordes of Harley faithful running to Indian/Victory. Polaris just plain beat them at their own game and continues to do so. The coming recession is going to be rough for the whole industry but for HD it will be a fist full of nails in the coffin. All that bashing aside, HD has been iconic and a part of our history and culture for decades, no changing that. It's time has come and half the bike for twice the price is a poor recipe for heading into uncertain times. I hope I'm wrong but it's not looking good for HD.

I was wondering how long it would take them to get away from the twin cam. I never did think it was that great of an Engine.

I believe this will be a better Engine. As Casey said I see a lot of people running to other brands like Indian & Victory to but their will always be the dedicated Harley Followers.

I know I hang out with some of them they were making fun of the new 4 valve technology the other day even they know that it is not new technology but new for Harley. I bet one of them will be the first to run out & get one though. If you buy a new Harley at the local shop they will give you 2 free T-shirts from Indonesia that say Harley on them.:rofl_200:

I believe the first DOHC 4-valve/cylinder car was the Peugeot pre World War I, yes, that's right, WW I! Two came came to Indianapolis to race at the Indy 500 (they won in 1913), and they were supposed to return to Europe, but only one made it back. A gentleman named Miller supposedly had access to the engine, and designed his own racing engine based on the 4-valve/cylinder Peugeot design. Miller's cars proved to be very competitive, and it wasn't until the Great Depression that his manufacturing co. went bankrupt. The Offenhausers bought the tooling, and began making their version. Some years at Indy, nearly the entire field was comprised of Offenhausers. Meyer and Drake bought the co. and took over manufacture, and I believe it was the late 1970's before the "Offy" design was no-longer qualifying for Indy.

So, Harley is using engine design technology first developed over a hundred years ago, almost back to their beginning, when their anniversaries could still be counted as a single whole number.

CaptainKyle said:

I was wondering how long it would take them to get away from the twin cam. I never did think it was that great of an Engine.

I believe this will be a better Engine. As Casey said I see a lot of people running to other brands like Indian & Victory to but their will always be the dedicated Harley Followers.

I know I hang out with some of them they were making fun of the new 4 valve technology the other day even they know that it is not new technology but new for Harley. I bet one of them will be the first to run out & get one though. If you buy a new Harley at the local shop they will give you 2 free T-shirts from Indonesia that say Harley on them.:rofl_200:

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They are sure out there, and more than a few of them, but they are graying. Nothing is certain but its fairly likely that the coming generation is less likely to have great credit and/or $30k liquid scratch laying around. I think as long as they are a business they will have to offer the traditional twin or some iteration of it but I'm not betting on them being able to remain solvent without some other iron in the fire. I'm no longer an HD guy but I would like to see the company do well. What do you guys think about the following?

1. Vrod engines retuned and offered in touring and sport/touring packages, not resembling a Vrod OR a traditional model currently on the market. Something to compete with FJR or ZX. If not in absolute HP at least in genre.

2. Sport bike. Buell-esque attempt but scrapping the twin altogether and going with a V4 or tripple (or Vrod twin) or something other than the silly-competitive inline 4 segment.

If I look at CL here now the used bike market is absolutely saturated with clean used HDs at some fairly deep discounts. This cant be good for new bike sales. I hope they have a plan...

[I would like to see the company do well. What do you guys think about the following?

1. Vrod engines retuned and offered in touring and sport/touring packages, not resembling a Vrod OR a traditional model currently on the market. Something to compete with FJR or ZX. If not in absolute HP at least in genre.

2. Sport bike. Buell-esque attempt but scrapping the twin altogether and going with a V4 or tripple (or Vrod twin) or something other than the silly-competitive inline 4 segment.

If I look at CL here now the used bike market is absolutely saturated with clean used HDs at some fairly deep discounts. This cant be good for new bike sales. I hope they have a plan...[/QUOTE]



I think your 2 Ideas are pretty good . I think they are going to have to do something. I look at CL every single day at least twice a day & the market is flooded with all kinds of bikes right now. It is a buyers market on almost any bike you want.

I used to do pretty good selling bikes not so much any more ! I think a lot of people don't have the cash to keep extra toys any more & a lot of the people that want something new can not afford it any more & are just fixing what they have. I know a little off topic but it is what I see.

CaptainKyle said:

I used to do pretty good selling bikes not so much any more ! I think a lot of people don't have the cash to keep extra toys any more & a lot of the people that want something new can not afford it any more & are just fixing what they have. I know a little off topic but it is what I see.

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Reason Obama.

Next reason, Clinton.

We are all fucked, but atleast off topic can be entertaining.

Tex85 said:

Reason Obama.

Next reason, Clinton.

We are all fucked, but atleast off topic can be entertaining.

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:bang head::bang head::bang head: Yeah it can be entertaining & I agree with you

Depends on where you live. Around here HD's outnumber all other makes combined by 10 or 20 to 1. People don't ask what kind of bike you ride, but what kind of Harley do you ride.

Lots of people don't care about the latest tech, and many of those people have the money, or the credit, to buy into the Harley theme.


Harley will be around for a long time.

I was actually looking for Buell 1125R or CR before I spotted the Vmax. Might still pick one up someday.

Harley's not gonna be the Wisconsin Buggywhip Co. of 1920. They will always have a core market of people who cherish the H-D mystique. They are The Motor Company. They can sell based on their history until we're all riding electric scooters, which may not be so-bad, given the development that will eventually come. I don't think in my lifetime I'll see an end to Harley-Davidson.

Fire-medic said:

Harley's not gonna be the Wisconsin Buggywhip Co. of 1920. They will always have a core market of people who cherish the H-D mystique. They are The Motor Company. They can sell based on their history until we're all riding electric scooters, which may not be so-bad, given the development that will eventually come. I don't think in my lifetime I'll see an end to Harley-Davidson.

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I hope not, but I still wonder what they will have to do to capture younger buyers as their core fans start trading in HDs for walkers. There are several new factors that HD has never had to worry about before, some real threats to their well being. The first two are what peeled me away and put me on a "Jap" bike. HD morphed from a counterculture, a bad boy bike if you will, to a conformist mainstream yuppie chariot. The Jap bikes started getting better, faster, more reliable and cost effective. I went from being an outcast for riding an HD to being an outcast for NOT riding an HD. Fine with me.

The real things they have never faced is such a huge saturation of clean used HDs on the market for cheap. If HD never made another bike after today there would be plenty to go around for at least a couple generations. The second is Polaris offering an excellent alternative. The bikes are superior and in most cases cheaper. It's direct competition and I hope HD considers this a very serious threat. These Polaris bikes are pretty damn fine machines and no doubt as they continue to sell new bikes, more used HDs show up on CL and showroom floors where they seem to sit for awhile. I'm really seeing a sharp increase in Polaris machines on the road, many many more this year than last. Their closure may take longer than the 10 years I predicted but I dont think we'll have to wait long to see their decline start OR their move to counter all these new threats lurking on the horizon.

I live near Sturgis, no doubt there are still hordes of HDs running around, but looking at demographics tells a story. I dont think it will be to long before they start to feel a real pinch as younger buyers have never seen Easy Rider and dont really care about "heritage" and "tradition". I know it sounds mean but it's what I'm seeing. I would prefer to see an American company thrive but in the face of all these new dynamics it's not going to be as easy as selling the same ol/same ol' overpriced underwhelming crap to this next batch of more particular buyers who are much more likely to demand something real for their money. I'm no fan of the HD but I do enjoy diversity in the bike market but I'm not at all confident that they can/will rise to meet these new challenges.

I understand why Harley Davidson didn't bite the bullet and convert to over head cam engines. There was no guarantee the faithful would accept the change. Or new customers would come to buy.
They could have kept the push rod tubes as decorations. Or pumped water through them for cooling. And also kept the sound and basic look.The weak HP to engine size ratio, and price, has kept many away, imho. They are incredible at marketing, but have major competition now. I wish them the best, as well. And hope they stick around.
Steve-o

Mercedes and GM had very strong pushrod engines that they developed. Good design, good materials, intake and exhausts that complimented each other, and these days, software to make it all work-an OHC design isn't really required to make power or to have durability.

Yes, at some point, probably H-D will have to go to water-cooling to meet tightening noise and pollution requirements. By then, the boomers (early 50's to age 71) and war babies (age now 71+) will be in their last round of buying bikes anyways. Will it matter to them that H-D goes "wet?" Only in that it's "more complexity and complications, and more to 'go wrong.'" And in my opinion, that's going to be a smaller group of buyers. The Evo and later H-D buyers consist of boomers who are more-interested in reliability, and also the traditional appearance that has been so faithfully copied by the Japanese (Shadow, Vulcan, Intruder, Virago) to the Italians (Moto Guzzi California) and even the Germans (BMW-R1200C). The Gen X people and the Millennials will consider buying a Harley as a mark of "having made it," a status symbol of dispensable income for those who are interested in bikes. That was in my opinion one of the reasons so-many people bought the Harleys in the Evo era: new to motorcycling, and easy entry into a sub-group of the genre where the 'lifestyle' was as-important as the mode of transportation. Look at your local craigslist, and see how-many slightly-used H-D's there are, you'd have to be crazy to want to pay full list price for a new one, the choices for a cash buyer mean you can get a <10K miles nearly-new Twin Cam for 2/3 of what it cost new. And that's for something 5 years old, or less. Only the (relatively) rich will be buying a $40,000 CVO specialty Harley, new, I think. Any self-respecting potential Harley customer who is financially-observant will be scooping the cream off the top of the used low-mileage Harley's there are available now.

A new MI Harley dealership opens, 106,000 sq.ft.: http://www.mlive.com/business/detroit/index.ssf/2016/08/see_inside_the_huge_new_harley.html#0

It's notable this store complex is on the site of a shuttered "largest retailer in the USA" Walton family business. They had to close it, but Harley thinks they can make their business plan for the parcel make money, where the Walton family struggled to. That doesn't sound like H-D is a company 'on the ropes' to me.

My best Harleys were my sportsters 1985 to 1997 and my best big twin was a 1999 softail with the EVO engine. It was bullet proof and could be Hopped up to run Hard ! The twin cam was a joke & very expensive to service the Chain tensioners that wore out prematurely. I sold my last twin cam at a loss just to get rid of it. And yes....Indian is kicking the hell out of the big Decker sales. Its funny to see all the Harley trade-inns at the indian dealership, as well, ..there are a "trade-in" Harleys at Honda & Triumph dealerships. You Never use to see this.! Now the Harley Plant In bawl india is going to make All the Harley Models. Not good for us, but Harley is going to make Millions selling these 2nd rate bikes all over the world in record numbers.!