96 sitting for 4 + years.

[Parminio]

no not 'betting on it' but he said it fired straight up but ran rough so it might be alright with the cams in correct position, if any damage was going to happen as a result of running it would have had a good chance to happen with that first fire up, why is is not worth trying to fire it up with things in correct positions

That's true.

But the idea is that if he "fixed that the wrong way" what else did he do that was wrong? What if he degrees the cam back in, fires it up, it seems to be running great, gets 20 miles down the road and something else he "fixed" comes undone because it wasn't done right?

Both points of view are correct, but I think the difference is that Fire Medic and I are assuming a worst case scenario based on the condition the bike is in right now where Max Midnight and you are taking the path of least resistance.

Again, even if he did just fix the cam and put it back together and it fired up and ran smoothly, there's no telling what else he went through in the engine and didn't put back right that might let go 30 minutes later. While it's down, tear it all down and make sure.

 

[user 16790]

we could be like that with all of our bikes when someone else has worked on them, you can never tell when something someone else has done will fail just because it goes ok 'now'

 

[Parminio]

Again, true.

But in this case we KNOW the person that worked on it had no idea what he was doing and we also don't know what else he touched.

That's the problem, and ultimately that's what makes me nervous.

 

[sdt354]

A conversation with the P.O. on how he checked valve clearance, would be prudent. If he's not aware of the cam tool needed, I'd be suspicious and think the P.O. might have removed the cams to access shims. There are cam post in the archives , with instructions on setting up the cams, with easy to follow instructions . I'd verify cam position for sure. Clearance check, yes.

 

[sdt354]

we could be like that with all of our bikes when someone else has worked on them, you can never tell when something someone else has done will fail just because it goes ok 'now'
True, for sure. There's a short list of people I'd let touch my ride.

 

[Fire-medic]

Sure, if you trust this numbskull's work, just re-set the cam that's out, and bet your health that he didn't screw-up some other component, or more-likely, components/systems. I bet there are some surprises awaiting discovery in the braking systems, once he gets-into the bike. Given the nature of what the current owner has discovered, and based upon the information that was readily-admitted by the family member, and possibly by the seller, when the prospective purchaser was doing the 'pre-purchase verbal dance' with the seller, no-way would I want to trust my life to what that owner did, didn't do, or omitted doing properly. I bet in his other mechanical repairs, he always ended-up with a plie of parts: I don't know where these go, but it's back-together, so I'll just throw these out!"

I think I just bought the dial indicator to find TDC he used to set the valve clearances.

 

[desert_max]

That’s what I’d do. (Re-time the cam and do an assessment then.)

 

[Fire-medic]

There are so-many things this clown could-have bodged in his pathetic attempt at 'repairs,' you're betting-big on his skills. This is one time I wouldn't follow Jeopardy's James Holzhauer's ideal of "all-in, Alex!" in assuming that this engine and the other systems were properly-fixed, because they weren't. The cams and the clutch inoperability are I fear just what's been found to this point.

If you went to a physician, and he/she made two serious missed-diagnoses, or failed to identify serious conditions, would you continue to allow them to treat you? I sure as-hell wouldn't!

 

[MaxMidnight]

There are so-many things this clown could-have bodged in his pathetic attempt at 'repairs,' you're betting-big on his skills.

Could have bodged is the operative word here.

I suspect that there is not one of us who hasn't ever re-assembled something incorrectly?
Just because the PO has made one mistake it doesn't automatically follow that he may have put the pistons in upside down.
Is there any evidence that the crank cases have been split? If not then I see very little benefit in doing so unless you are desperate to look at the inner workings of the motor.

Of course it is prudent to check all aspects of the bike over and if you start by doing a full service then you will start to see those rounded nuts, hammer marks etc. (or not) which will help you decide what should be on your 'must do' list.

Bottom line though is that it matters not one jot what we would do,
Mr Mjsinil should follow what his head tells him and what he is comfortable with.

 

[desert_max]

Bingo! Max has hit the nail right on the head. I am of the opinion that unless a particular supposed condition has manifest itself and can be supported with empirical evidence, I’m going to assume that that condition does not exist. Speculation rather than determination can lead one on a wild goose chase and waste lots of time and money.

Given the demonstrated lack of skill that the PO might’ve had, it is unlikely an individual like that would’ve split the cases. Retime it, dial in the carburetors, fire it up and then see what you’ve got. Might still be ugly, but you’ll have another data point and nothing will have been wasted.

Not every situation reported here should be treated as a soapbox for pontification. Sometimes, a guy just wants to get his motorcycle runnng. Sometimes, that guy doesn’t want to spend a gazillion dollars unnecessarily.

 

[robmac]

Has the sky fallen yet??

 

[Fire-medic]

I hope he gets lucky.

From my desert_max identified soapbox, I'm going to use saponification techniques to state my suggestion of a tear-down and try to clean this-up.

As I also mentioned, looking for new gaskets is one-way to determine how-far he got into-it. Usually when you remove the side case covers, they rip-apart. A truly ham-fisted, parsimonious (I'll call your use of pontification and raise you) owner would probably just try and piece the torn gaskets back-on, and "silicone gasket sealant is your friend." The excess travels into oil passages, and plugs the oil galley, starving the crankshaft or top-end; now you've got a problem!

I agree with MaxMidnight, it's not likely that he removed the engine and split the cases. I thought about that before I decided to-post about a case-splitting. However, given the nature of major systems he's already 'touched' if you find anything else awry, I would spend the time to tear it down. For example, during your investigation into the top-end, try to-see what types of torque values you need to exert to disassemble things like the cam caps. That would start with the valve cover itself, and proceed as-far as you choose to examine things. Any loose fasteners? Stripped ones? Excessively-torqued ones? Missing ones? Missing dowels? Missing o-rings? Picture him industriously working-away on the engine, he drops a fastener, the valve covers are off. He cannot locate that pesky errant fastener. Why? It's hiding down the cam chain cavity. He doesn't bother to try to fish it out, using a magnet, or a borescope, to see if it's peering-up at him. He just grabs another fastener, and installs it, perhaps he's expecting it to "come-out at the next oil change." Ya gotta love that type of optimism, just don't allow yourself to be victimized by such neglect.

When the current owner gets the cams sleuthed, and the clutch (I'm waiting to hear what that one's about) repaired, and now it at-least can be made to run for tuning, you can compare me to-what the criminal Spiro Agnew called POTUS Nixon's critics: "nattering nabobs of negativism."

 

[desert_max]

I will give you credit for one thing FM, you roll with the punches. I like that.

While I didn’t have to look up parsimonious, I actually did have to reference saponification. Sheesh. It actually fits. And soap box or not, I also have to give credit where credit is due. You are free and easy with advice and reference material for folks who need it. Sometimes it comes at a price though.

But about this Motorcycle. He really is into it pretty cheaply - heck as he points out, that Grazia table… from which design, by the way, the harbor freight lift table was made... was worth the price of entry. HF unit is literally an exact copy. Anyway, If I had obtained a bike that cheap, I would keep everything about it on the cheap.

I have a sneaking suspicion that things won’t be as bad as we’ve painted here. So far, the only real smoking gun is an upside down camshaft. The nonworking clutch could be almost anything. No smoking gun there yet.

Either way, it’ll be interesting to see how this one turns out. I hope the OP continues to fill us in on what’s going on. For sure, he will get lots of help here… or maybe I should say he’ll get lots of opinions on what he oughta do. Choices. Life is full of them.

 

[MaxMidnight]

For example, during your investigation into the top-end, try to-see what types of torque values you need to exert to disassemble things like the cam caps.

That won't tell what the on (fastening) torque was as the off (unfastening) torque takes more effort to remove a fastener.
The correct way to establish this would be to mark the position of the nut slacken and then re-torque to the same position.
Even that would only be an indication because a) you will be using a different wrench and b) the ambient condition may (will?) be different (although I'm not sure how much difference the temperature, humidity and thread lubrication will affect the value) c) different torquing technique.

Anyone who has owned and run bikes for any length of time should have a feel for how their new acquisition has been looked after and if it looks like a dead dog would walk away.
I think we should trust Mr Mjsinil's judgement in parting with his hard earned that if the bike looks in reasonable fettle for it's age it probably is.

 

[Fire-medic]

That won't tell what the on (fastening) torque was as the off (unfastening) torque takes more effort to remove a fastener.
The correct way to establish this would be to mark the position of the nut slacken and then re-torque to the same position.
Even that would only be an indication because a) you will be using a different wrench and b) the ambient condition may (will?) be different (although I'm not sure how much difference the temperature, humidity and thread lubrication will affect the value) c) different torquing technique.

Anyone who has owned and run bikes for any length of time should have a feel for how their new acquisition has been looked after and if it looks like a dead dog would walk away.
I think we should trust Mr Mjsinil's judgement in parting with his hard earned that if the bike looks in reasonable fettle for it's age it probably is.

I was suggesting that in-terms of loose fasteners vs. ones being properly torqued.

I like 'dead-dog' bikes, they're cheaper, and if you're going through the entire bike, it doesn't really-matter, as-long as it's capable of being refurbished. I've bought parts bikes for the sum-total of its parts, what cannot be re-used is recycled. I'm acting as a 'breaker,' I believe is the term on your side of the pond. One I got from a wrecking yard, the counter guy I dealt-with on the purchase, told me, "we had another one just-like that, which came-in but we just sold it last-week, it was in a lot-better shape." He was intimating like I 'missed-out,' but I bet he got a lot-more for the one of-which he was speaking, compared to the unloved mongrel I took-home for 'change the tires' money.

 

[desert_max]

As I have gotten older, I have begun to shy away from the dead dog bikes. Now I pick my battles. There are exceptions - like my most recent acquisition - a CX500 Turbo. Not exactly they dead dog, but an ailing one for sure.

To the fellow with the 4 year sleeper Vmax. Apologies for derailing your topic. We will be happy to work through this project with you.

 

[MaxMidnight]

I was suggesting that in-terms of loose fasteners vs. ones being properly torqued.

Fair enough, but with such a low torque item (10 Nm or 7.3 ft/lbs) unless it was just over finger tight would you be able to establish how loose, if anything, it was?

 

[82ndCowboy]

What if the guy pulled the valve covers to adjust the valves. Realized he didnt know how or what he was doing. Then slapped em back on.
Then all this worry, time and expense is for nothing.
Which Is why getting the exact answer of what he touched and did, is a damn good path to follow.
Often times we get focused on one vision and our mechanical sense wont let it go.
Here's a personal case.
Few days before I went to Deals gap I changed my oil, filters, lubed my Chevy dually. I had a brake caliper sticking from time to time after long drives. So I stopped by the local stealer and bought the two brake hoses for the front. Do one, do the other, match set. Figured go the cheap fix first and then the calipers second if problem still exists.
Keep in mind I have never had starting issues what so ever with my dually.
After doing the brake line on the right and bleeding it, took all of 30 minutes.
Went to start the truck, nothing but clicking and message on DIC telling me to "service traction control."
WTF? How does changing and bleeding a brake hose kill traction control.
Answer, it doesn't. But I wasted 2 hours trying to figure out what the fuck was going on. Finally figured out Both my batteries went bad and chose this point in time to die.
My point...
You just may be mentally focused on something that has no bearing on the problem.
Just food for thought.

 

[Fire-medic]

82ndC., I can appreciate your personal history about things mechanical. True-dat, sometimes one thing has no-relation to another, it was just 'the stars aligned, or collided, or something.' You do whatever you can, to deal with what you're faced with overcoming, and hopefully, you're on your way again, in the Game of Life.

Robert Prsig, in Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, wrote about gumption traps, where you become needlessly-bound-to something which calcifies your capacity for rational thought, and you end-up unable to effectively sort-out whatever issues you are facing. Your frustration rises, things aren't solved, and unhappiness results.

In the case of the cheap bike, fundamental issues of operation have been bolloxed by the prior owner. Solve 'em as you find 'em, and hope that your investigative skills sleuth all the issues, leaving you with an operable vehicle/ride.

Avoid the gumption traps.

 

[mjsinil]

I will keep you all updated on what I find when I remove the cam shaft tomorrow and replace and set valves. It will be interesting to see what has been ’ touched‘ by the PO.