Awful Noise Starting Warm Engine

[Mightymouse]

Hey everyone, couldn't find a thread on this one. Feel free to link if I missed it.

I have a 97' with about 63,000 miles on it.

The bike makes an awful noise when I try to start the engine after it has warmed up (after filling it up at a gas station for example). This never happens when the engine is cold. What's going on here?

I attached a video below to show you what I mean. Thanks for any help.

 

[one2dmax]

Time for starter clutch repair. I have some options available if you want some pricing. Email me at [email protected]
You MIGHT get lucky and just replace the bolts but likely it has cracked the body of the clutch. This does require taking the stator cover off (and mid gear) to access the flywheel since it's bolted to the backside of it. The flywheel can be difficult to get off and we have a youtube video showing how we do it.

 

[Mightymouse]

Ah, yeah. That's it. I'll disassemble and check out the damage. I'll let ya know.

 

[Pighuntingpuppy]

Ah.....I remember that noise from my Virago. Starter clutch noise. Looks like the Max is a more long term fix over the Virago. The Virago, it was a noise you just learned to live with.

 

[Wirenut]

My ‘97 has 30k and it started making that noise this year.

 

[Bill Seward]

Actually, the starter noise in the Virago was more like a bad Bendix spring in an old car. The Virago starter gear rode up a spiral ramp to engage the flywheel. There was a wire doohickey that kinda looked like a Juice Harp ( look it up). This doohickey went round the hub of the starter gear, and ran up a slot in the case. The idea was to put some drag on the gear, and it would run right up the ramp to engage the flywheel gear before it got rotating too fast. Nice, till the wire doohickey got loose and the drag on the gear lessened. Then the gear would not run up the ramp quickly and got up to a high RPM, and wouldn't engage, just bounce off the gear and make noise.

I figured out a way to fix this defect. I removed the gear, and spun the wire doohickey around it with my finger. There was almost NO drag. I then squeezed the extended part of the doohickey in a vice, till there was a pretty good drag. Reassembling the assembly, I never had a problem again. I've fixed a number of these engines this way, and it really works. Takes an hour, and a side cover gasket. I won a bet with the head mechanic at my Yamaha dealer. He said it wouldn't work. It did, and I won the bet. He's also used this technique to fix them. Unfortunately, the Max system is completely different and this won't work.

 

[Pighuntingpuppy]

Actually, the starter noise in the Virago was more like a bad Bendix spring in an old car. The Virago starter gear rode up a spiral ramp to engage the flywheel. There was a wire doohickey that kinda looked like a Juice Harp ( look it up). This doohickey went round the hub of the starter gear, and ran up a slot in the case. The idea was to put some drag on the gear, and it would run right up the ramp to engage the flywheel gear before it got rotating too fast. Nice, till the wire doohickey got loose and the drag on the gear lessened. Then the gear would not run up the ramp quickly and got up to a high RPM, and wouldn't engage, just bounce off the gear and make noise.

I figured out a way to fix this defect. I removed the gear, and spun the wire doohickey around it with my finger. There was almost NO drag. I then squeezed the extended part of the doohickey in a vice, till there was a pretty good drag. Reassembling the assembly, I never had a problem again. I've fixed a number of these engines this way, and it really works. Takes an hour, and a side cover gasket. I won a bet with the head mechanic at my Yamaha dealer. He said it wouldn't work. It did, and I won the bet. He's also used this technique to fix them. Unfortunately, the Max system is completely different and this won't work.

Oh I know what you are talking about. Believe me, I still got my Virago. I put 100K on it. I repaired that starter issue over and over with every documented trick out there. They would work for a few months then box of rocks sound. The noise the OP had in his video made me take a trip down memory lane with that noise and the fixes. Beveling gears, shortening springs, tightening springs, different starters, ground repairs, positive wires.....ah, those were the days, LOL.

 

[Fire-medic]

Ah, the infamous "box-of-rocks" sound.

I know a fix for the early Viragos, you adapt the later starter mechanism to it and you have to fabricate a simple spacer to make it work. I had an VV920, the one w/the LCD instruments in a single rectangular pod. It was a friend's at work on fire-rescue. His son took it w/o permission & wrecked it, he gave it to me to keep it out of his son's hands. I fixed it & gifted it to a friend who worked at a Yamaha dealership, who had the rare European chain-drive model, which featured a totally-enclosed chain final drive, like a 1960's Bultaco Metralla 250 two-stroke single road bike. He bought that European version Virago new, when he was working at a Yamaha dealer. Very-few of those made it stateside.

 

[Pighuntingpuppy]

Ah, the infamous "box-of-rocks" sound.

I know a fix for the early Viragos, you adapt the later starter mechanism to it and you have to fabricate a simple spacer to make it work. I had an VV920, the one w/the LCD instruments in a single rectangular pod. It was a friend's at work on fire-rescue. His son took it w/o permission & wrecked it, he gave it to me to keep it out of his son's hands. I fixed it & gifted it to a friend who worked at a Yamaha dealership, who had the rare European chain-drive model, which featured a totally-enclosed chain final drive, like a 1960's Bultaco Metralla 250 two-stroke single road bike. He bought that European version Virago new, when he was working at a Yamaha dealer. Very-few of those made it stateside.

That fix did work but expensive sourcing parts. Side cover, the stator, flywheel and everything in that side pretty much. About 10 years ago, I started pricing that out and ended up almost $1000 for the parts. Was easier just to pull the cover and tweak things every year.

 

[Edward]

Hey everyone, couldn't find a thread on this one. Feel free to link if I missed it.

I have a 97' with about 63,000 miles on it.

The bike makes an awful noise when I try to start the engine after it has warmed up (after filling it up at a gas station for example). This never happens when the engine is cold. What's going on here?

I attached a video below to show you what I mean. Thanks for any help.

This MAY be a broken starter clutch ring but my bet is on a weak battery. VMAXs EAT batteries. When the battery is weak your video is illustrative of what it sounds like. Your battery lacks the reserve power required to turn the high compression, 4 cylinder engine.

Your video doesn't have the characteristic metal to metal sound of a broken ring as the metal clutch cylinders slam around without being able to lock up.

Check the battery first before moving to the starter.

 

[Edward]

Ah, the infamous "box-of-rocks" sound.

I know a fix for the early Viragos, you adapt the later starter mechanism to it and you have to fabricate a simple spacer to make it work. ...

I have moved my response to a new thread here: https://www.vmaxforum.net/threads/viragos-box-o-rocks.47909/#post-477355

 

[Mightymouse]

This MAY be a broken starter clutch ring but my bet is on a weak battery. VMAXs EAT batteries. When the battery is weak your video is illustrative of what it sounds like. Your battery lacks the reserve power required to turn the high compression, 4 cylinder engine.

Your video doesn't have the characteristic metal to metal sound of a broken ring as the metal clutch cylinders slam around without being able to lock up.

Check the battery first before moving to the starter.

Hey Edward, I replaced my old lead acid with a new Odyssey PC680. Battery is good to go! I thought that could have been an issue as well.

It fires right up when the engines cold. It only makes this sound when its warm. I can get it started if I roll on the throttle a little while pushing the starter button. No choke.

 

[Edward]

Hey Edward, I replaced my old lead acid with a new Odyssey PC680. Battery is good to go! I thought that could have been an issue as well.


It fires right up when the engines cold. It only makes this sound when its warm. I can get it started if I roll on the throttle a little while pushing the starter button. No choke.

Increasing induction of mixture can mask a lot of problems unrelated to carburation. So, the problem may, or may not be, related to fuel.


We still have the sound and it sounds like a weak battery IMHO. Since you have effectively eliminated the battery as the proximal cause, it is probably something else. Also, it seems to be related to heat. Put the two together and what do we have? A heat related problem that causes an excessive drain on the battery when the starter is energized. This may indicate high resistance in some part of the starting circuit.


One question I have at this point is this. How does the engine run after it gets up to operating temperature? Is it rough? This may indicate a failing pickup coil or some other component in the ignition circuit.


You may be able to diagnose this by checking the draw on the battery when you are trying to start. I'm not sure what the baseline should be but there is probably someone on this list who has that info.


I would begin by checking resistance in the wiring. It never hurts to unplug and re-plug connectors. Check resistance in the starter motor when it’s cold and when its warm These tests don't require any parts and they don't require disassembly.


Testing resistance of the pickup when cold and when hot (using a hair dryer) will require removal of the right-side case cover. You can check the starter clutch at this time.

 

[Mightymouse]

Increasing induction of mixture can mask a lot of problems unrelated to carburation. So, the problem may, or may not be, related to fuel.


We still have the sound and it sounds like a weak battery IMHO. Since you have effectively eliminated the battery as the proximal cause, it is probably something else. Also, it seems to be related to heat. Put the two together and what do we have? A heat related problem that causes an excessive drain on the battery when the starter is energized. This may indicate high resistance in some part of the starting circuit.


One question I have at this point is this. How does the engine run after it gets up to operating temperature? Is it rough? This may indicate a failing pickup coil or some other component in the ignition circuit.


You may be able to diagnose this by checking the draw on the battery when you are trying to start. I'm not sure what the baseline should be but there is probably someone on this list who has that info.


I would begin by checking resistance in the wiring. It never hurts to unplug and re-plug connectors. Check resistance in the starter motor when it’s cold and when its warm These tests don't require any parts and they don't require disassembly.


Testing resistance of the pickup when cold and when hot (using a hair dryer) will require removal of the right-side case cover. You can check the starter clutch at this time.

Hey Edward,

Finally got around to the bike today. I'm not sure if the engine is running rough or not. It sounds the same as when I bought it last year.

I tested the pickup coil as you suggested but I don't know how to interpret the results. Maybe you could help me with that. I attached a few photos below.

I measured the resistance according to the Clymer manual procedure and got a reading of 438 when the ohm dial was set to 2000k. I'm pretty sure I measured the right terminals. The ambient air temperature at the time of the measurement was 71 degrees F.

Is this reading out of spec?

Thanks for any help you can give.

 

[Edward]

Hey Edward,

Finally got around to the bike today. I'm not sure if the engine is running rough or not. It sounds the same as when I bought it last year.

I tested the pickup coil as you suggested but I don't know how to interpret the results. Maybe you could help me with that. I attached a few photos below.

I measured the resistance according to the Clymer manual procedure and got a reading of 438 when the ohm dial was set to 2000k. I'm pretty sure I measured the right terminals. The ambient air temperature at the time of the measurement was 71 degrees F.

Is this reading out of spec?

Thanks for any help you can give.

It doesn't look like you are testing the pickup. That plug has space for 6 terminals but only 5 are filled. The colors are B, W/R, O, W, G, Gy. The resistance should be 110Ω +-10%. Yamaha says O and each of the other colors but I think Clymer is correct and the common is B (Black)

Normally, a failing pickup will result in a no start. To test it for failing at high temp, it needs to be removed from its location at the flywheel/generator. If heating with a hair dryer causes any resistance to become infinite, it is bad. Yamaha doesn't give any resistances other than at 68F. This part operates in the hellish environment of the inner engine and I don't know what the resistance should be at operating temperature. Yamaha should say but their manuals are so poorly proofed as to be unreliable at times.

Notice that you don't need to remove the pickup to check it at room temperature. Set your 0hmmeter to 200Ω. The reason it needs to be removed to check it at high temperatures is that the engine won't start at all.

 

[Mightymouse]

It doesn't look like you are testing the pickup. That plug has space for 6 terminals but only 5 are filled. The colors are B, W/R, O, W, G, Gy. The resistance should be 110Ω +-10%. Yamaha says O and each of the other colors but I think Clymer is correct and the common is B (Black)

Normally, a failing pickup will result in a no start. To test it for failing at high temp, it needs to be removed from its location at the flywheel/generator. If heating with a hair dryer causes any resistance to become infinite, it is bad. Yamaha doesn't give any resistances other than at 68F. This part operates in the hellish environment of the inner engine and I don't know what the resistance should be at operating temperature. Yamaha should say but their manuals are so poorly proofed as to be unreliable at times.

Notice that you don't need to remove the pickup to check it at room temperature. Set your 0hmmeter to 200Ω. The reason it needs to be removed to check it at high temperatures is that the engine won't start at all.

Hey Edward, you're right. That was the wrong plug. I found the one you were talking about.

I opened the alternator cover and inspected the starter clutch bolts. They were loose. Not as loose as the ones in Sean's video () but I could turn 2 of them with a pair of needle nose pliers.

A loose starter clutch seems to be the problem.

 

[Edward]

I opened the alternator cover and inspected the starter clutch bolts. They were loose. Not as loose as the ones in Sean's video () but I could turn 2 of them with a pair of needle nose pliers.

A loose starter clutch seems to be the problem.

I agree. While you're in there, it would be wise to go remove and check components of the the starter clutch itself. Loose bolts cause the ring to break. If all is well, spay bolts with electrical parts cleaner; hose the bolt holes out as well. Then use Locktite and torque to specs 17 ft. lbs. Electrical parts cleaner evaporates rapidly without leaving a residue. Oil on the threads defeats the purpose of Locktite.

 

[one2dmax]

If they are loose as Edward noted the clutch is very suspect and likely damaged

 

[Wirenut]

Swapped mine out last weekend. Might as well change the 76 tooth idler gear as well (26H-15517-00-00) while ur in there. Mine was lightly scuffed on the brass part. I peen as well as lock tite the bolts that hold the clutch to the rotor.

 

[Mightymouse]

Swapped mine out last weekend. Might as well change the 76 tooth idler gear as well (26H-15517-00-00) while ur in there. Mine was lightly scuffed on the brass part. I peen as well as lock tite the bolts that hold the clutch to the rotor.

Hey Wirenut, I may have gotten lucky. All my gears look pretty good.