Birdoprey's COP (Coils Over Plugs) Mod
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Birdoprey
Well-Known Member
So you are running a Dyna3000 with 1.8Ohm coil sticks with no issues? Good to know!
How may miles have you logged with that setup?
ssnsltd
Well-Known Member
yah, I have a set of "short" and "tall" sticks. I have the short ones in right now I didn't have any more problems after I replaced the fuse with a breaker, but I figured it couldn't hurt o up the resistance.
As for miles, not allot- only a few hundred so far, taking her out again this weekend. first I am going to change the stock clutch lever out for XJR one. hope it does for the clutch what it did for the brakes. :confused2:
ggrrr
New Member
Does anybody have the cops setup for sale? Or do I need to get them on ebay? I have a 96 vmax that I'm wanting to the mod on.
Thx Tony
Thx Tony
twistedmax
Well-Known Member
looks like this" cop" up grade could be the anwser to my prayers,whats the best" cop"to use? and does anyone have this upgrrade with wild bros EFI,should I also replace tci unit with a dyna 3000 for best results.and lastly will this hotter spark lean out my current a\f mixture enough to have to remapp?
naughtyG
Well-Known Member
DON'T use a dyna 3000 with cops on the Max - they've been know to fry (can't cope with added current load).
95spfldmax
Well-Known Member
OHHHH!!!!!....That's good to know.......I was planning to do this mod myself this winter...but I've got a Dyna3000 installed.......Has this happened enough to KNOW as a fact??
twistedmax
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the heads up, but now what to try first,dyna without cops,or the less exspensive cop only.:hmmm:
naughtyG
Well-Known Member
Well we had one guy here fry two Dyna 3000 units after doing the cop mod. I don't think any of the other Dyna users fancied trying to fry theirs..
Dyna should let you feel *some* improvement, or at least a difference in how the Max runs. The cops won't - bike starts a little easier but other than that it's no different, just a little weight loss if you remove all the original coils and a stronger spark.
twistedmax
Well-Known Member
which mod will best compliment EFI, cop or dyna 3000, thats my dilema.:ummm:
naughtyG
Well-Known Member
But, how does your EFI run? You already have a box doing the fuel mapping, right?
twistedmax
Well-Known Member
running ok I think it should be better. Has ecu controls pulse time,percententage of pulse time through three different rpm ranges( throttle responce) and percentage of extra fuel for cold start(correction table) all to be mapped then locked does not think on the run so to speak.
bbadwheels
Well-Known Member
How do you tell if the COP's are tall or short on e-bay? which ones are the 1.8 ohm?
not sure which are the 1.8 ohm, but no one has problems with denso's so far (there are some mitsu's in this list) you could ask first before buying or just contact birdoprey, as he was (probably still is) selling kits with wiring harnesses too.
satariel666
Well-Known Member
Continuing Fargo and Mark work i've started to work with make Dyna 3000 use the stick coils. First my idea was bulid the Current Regulator and limit only the TCI current and leave coils with no change.
So i've used PWM regulator, for those who dont know what is PWM - Pulse Width Modulation and for those who want to know more about this - just google it.
Ayway its not that dificult for person who use to make those things at school and i've had one regulator on hand.
The unit i use was bulid to work with 60A max current, constant. Peak even 80A. Fail!
PWM will affect on suply frequency and TCI goes nuts. Advance curve goes totaly freak out. Same with stock TCI and Dyna TCI. Also with dyna rpm limiter goes nuts.
Anyway dont to this at home.
Second idea was to use Linear Current regulator.
This type will not affect on suply frequancy and its works very fine.
But...thers always one "but"
Linear regulator works with big power transistor and makes much much heat
and using BIG, i mean very BIG radiator is required and even fan on this radiator.
No, i didnt ride with this device on my bike couse its big, hot and ugly.
Basicly coils still takes about 6A from suply but TCI is limited lets say to 4-5A
and evrything works fine.
Evrybody knows how TCI trigger the ignition coils?
Yes its switching the GND signal. Coils are permanently connected to +12V.
So i must say again: FAIL!
So lets get back to first idea. Using the resistors in series with coils.
What i've read here mostly typed by Fargo its correct but with one
exeption. VOLTAGE DROP AT RESISTOR CANT BE CALCULATED perfectly.
It must be mesured.
So i've had box of resistors on hand(i used to build many amplifiers those days) so found 4 resistors with bulit in radiator. 1 Ohm, 1% and rated on 50W constant power, peak even 80W.
Mesured them with very high quality LCR meter(paid about 500$ for it couple years ago) and its shows 1,08 to 1,16 Ohm. Mesured also two sets of COP coils. One was Mitsubishi and one Denso.
Here the results were quite the same. Typicaly 1,8 to 2 Ohm.
So after some testing i have Denso coil with 1 Ohm resistor with series i have 4,8 A max current and 11,6V when engine is running. About 2V lees when engine is not running, current the same.
Resistors are not even warm so 25-30W power can be used with good results.
And today i ride about 150 miles and personaly i see no diffrence.
Starting the cold engine with DYNA and COP with resistors is exactly the same like with stock TCI and cops without the resistors.
I ride with curve 4 and noticed little slower acceleration but im gonna change it to curve 5 and try curve 3 also. Will try some ride tomorrow couse its already dark and cold here. But playng with bike on the centralstand and switching to curve 5 i can hear that engine revs better.
IMO its a matter of selection correct curve and eventualy carb ajustment.
RPM limiter works properly.
At the end question "Can i use COP's and DYNA 3000" the answer is YES.
Heres the little theory with COP.
Now i can answer the question why Mitsubishi coils not working properly in this setup. Becouse they're overloaded.
Why i know this.
When running with Mitsu coils and stock TCI i noticed spark jumping from coil
to cylinder head. WTF? Are they damaged?
No. Checked them with LCR meter. No crack on case, absolutly any damage on them.
Then i add resistors with series and sprak jumping no more.
Some conclusions.
Densos are much much stronger coils, they can take much more overload then Mitsu. All modern motorcycle stick coils where designed to work with 3-4A of current and when they get 6A some of them may fail.
More current with tahe same voltage gives more peak power and spark energy is more stronger but propably Mitsu coils where not designed to work with that kind of load.
Im very sceptic with theory that COP on v-max will give you better cold start and any other benefits. Air and fuel mixture needs specific voltage to explode
and its typicaly 15kV to 25kV. IMO more voltage or power on spark=better explosion is WRONG theory.
25kV and no more is needed.
Modern TCI's that useing COP's are designed to trigger the coil with little less voltage. Typicaly 10V.
So when they're connected to 14V and even little more they start to give more then 25kV and thats the voltage Mitsu cant handle.
Basicly ignition coil work like high voltage transforer. When its supouse to work with lets say 10V and when we suply him woth lets say 14V
then we changing the transformer input and output values.
So i've used PWM regulator, for those who dont know what is PWM - Pulse Width Modulation and for those who want to know more about this - just google it.
Ayway its not that dificult for person who use to make those things at school and i've had one regulator on hand.
The unit i use was bulid to work with 60A max current, constant. Peak even 80A. Fail!
PWM will affect on suply frequency and TCI goes nuts. Advance curve goes totaly freak out. Same with stock TCI and Dyna TCI. Also with dyna rpm limiter goes nuts.
Anyway dont to this at home.
Second idea was to use Linear Current regulator.
This type will not affect on suply frequancy and its works very fine.
But...thers always one "but"
Linear regulator works with big power transistor and makes much much heat
and using BIG, i mean very BIG radiator is required and even fan on this radiator.
No, i didnt ride with this device on my bike couse its big, hot and ugly.
Basicly coils still takes about 6A from suply but TCI is limited lets say to 4-5A
and evrything works fine.
Evrybody knows how TCI trigger the ignition coils?
Yes its switching the GND signal. Coils are permanently connected to +12V.
So i must say again: FAIL!
So lets get back to first idea. Using the resistors in series with coils.
What i've read here mostly typed by Fargo its correct but with one
exeption. VOLTAGE DROP AT RESISTOR CANT BE CALCULATED perfectly.
It must be mesured.
So i've had box of resistors on hand(i used to build many amplifiers those days) so found 4 resistors with bulit in radiator. 1 Ohm, 1% and rated on 50W constant power, peak even 80W.
Mesured them with very high quality LCR meter(paid about 500$ for it couple years ago) and its shows 1,08 to 1,16 Ohm. Mesured also two sets of COP coils. One was Mitsubishi and one Denso.
Here the results were quite the same. Typicaly 1,8 to 2 Ohm.
So after some testing i have Denso coil with 1 Ohm resistor with series i have 4,8 A max current and 11,6V when engine is running. About 2V lees when engine is not running, current the same.
Resistors are not even warm so 25-30W power can be used with good results.
And today i ride about 150 miles and personaly i see no diffrence.
Starting the cold engine with DYNA and COP with resistors is exactly the same like with stock TCI and cops without the resistors.
I ride with curve 4 and noticed little slower acceleration but im gonna change it to curve 5 and try curve 3 also. Will try some ride tomorrow couse its already dark and cold here. But playng with bike on the centralstand and switching to curve 5 i can hear that engine revs better.
IMO its a matter of selection correct curve and eventualy carb ajustment.
RPM limiter works properly.
At the end question "Can i use COP's and DYNA 3000" the answer is YES.
Heres the little theory with COP.
Now i can answer the question why Mitsubishi coils not working properly in this setup. Becouse they're overloaded.
Why i know this.
When running with Mitsu coils and stock TCI i noticed spark jumping from coil
to cylinder head. WTF? Are they damaged?
No. Checked them with LCR meter. No crack on case, absolutly any damage on them.
Then i add resistors with series and sprak jumping no more.
Some conclusions.
Densos are much much stronger coils, they can take much more overload then Mitsu. All modern motorcycle stick coils where designed to work with 3-4A of current and when they get 6A some of them may fail.
More current with tahe same voltage gives more peak power and spark energy is more stronger but propably Mitsu coils where not designed to work with that kind of load.
Im very sceptic with theory that COP on v-max will give you better cold start and any other benefits. Air and fuel mixture needs specific voltage to explode
and its typicaly 15kV to 25kV. IMO more voltage or power on spark=better explosion is WRONG theory.
25kV and no more is needed.
Modern TCI's that useing COP's are designed to trigger the coil with little less voltage. Typicaly 10V.
So when they're connected to 14V and even little more they start to give more then 25kV and thats the voltage Mitsu cant handle.
Basicly ignition coil work like high voltage transforer. When its supouse to work with lets say 10V and when we suply him woth lets say 14V
then we changing the transformer input and output values.
RagingMain
Well-Known Member
Continuing Fargo and Mark work i've started to work with make Dyna 3000 use the stick coils. First my idea was bulid the Current Regulator and limit only the TCI current and leave coils with no change.
So i've used PWM regulator, for those who dont know what is PWM - Pulse Width Modulation and for those who want to know more about this - just google it.
Ayway its not that dificult for person who use to make those things at school and i've had one regulator on hand.
The unit i use was bulid to work with 60A max current, constant. Peak even 80A. Fail!
PWM will affect on suply frequency and TCI goes nuts. Advance curve goes totaly freak out. Same with stock TCI and Dyna TCI. Also with dyna rpm limiter goes nuts.
Anyway dont to this at home.
Second idea was to use Linear Current regulator.
This type will not affect on suply frequancy and its works very fine.
But...thers always one "but"
Linear regulator works with big power transistor and makes much much heat
and using BIG, i mean very BIG radiator is required and even fan on this radiator.
No, i didnt ride with this device on my bike couse its big, hot and ugly.
Basicly coils still takes about 6A from suply but TCI is limited lets say to 4-5A
and evrything works fine.
Evrybody knows how TCI trigger the ignition coils?
Yes its switching the GND signal. Coils are permanently connected to +12V.
So i must say again: FAIL!
So lets get back to first idea. Using the resistors in series with coils.
What i've read here mostly typed by Fargo its correct but with one
exeption. VOLTAGE DROP AT RESISTOR CANT BE CALCULATED perfectly.
It must be mesured.
So i've had box of resistors on hand(i used to build many amplifiers those days) so found 4 resistors with bulit in radiator. 1 Ohm, 1% and rated on 50W constant power, peak even 80W.
Mesured them with very high quality LCR meter(paid about 500$ for it couple years ago) and its shows 1,08 to 1,16 Ohm. Mesured also two sets of COP coils. One was Mitsubishi and one Denso.
Here the results were quite the same. Typicaly 1,8 to 2 Ohm.
So after some testing i have Denso coil with 1 Ohm resistor with series i have 4,8 A max current and 11,6V when engine is running. About 2V lees when engine is not running, current the same.
Resistors are not even warm so 25-30W power can be used with good results.
And today i ride about 150 miles and personaly i see no diffrence.
Starting the cold engine with DYNA and COP with resistors is exactly the same like with stock TCI and cops without the resistors.
I ride with curve 4 and noticed little slower acceleration but im gonna change it to curve 5 and try curve 3 also. Will try some ride tomorrow couse its already dark and cold here. But playng with bike on the centralstand and switching to curve 5 i can hear that engine revs better.
IMO its a matter of selection correct curve and eventualy carb ajustment.
RPM limiter works properly.
At the end question "Can i use COP's and DYNA 3000" the answer is YES.
Heres the little theory with COP.
Now i can answer the question why Mitsubishi coils not working properly in this setup. Becouse they're overloaded.
Why i know this.
When running with Mitsu coils and stock TCI i noticed spark jumping from coil
to cylinder head. WTF? Are they damaged?
No. Checked them with LCR meter. No crack on case, absolutly any damage on them.
Then i add resistors with series and sprak jumping no more.
Some conclusions.
Densos are much much stronger coils, they can take much more overload then Mitsu. All modern motorcycle stick coils where designed to work with 3-4A of current and when they get 6A some of them may fail.
More current with tahe same voltage gives more peak power and spark energy is more stronger but propably Mitsu coils where not designed to work with that kind of load.
Im very sceptic with theory that COP on v-max will give you better cold start and any other benefits. Air and fuel mixture needs specific voltage to explode
and its typicaly 15kV to 25kV. IMO more voltage or power on spark=better explosion is WRONG theory.
25kV and no more is needed.
Modern TCI's that useing COP's are designed to trigger the coil with little less voltage. Typicaly 10V.
So when they're connected to 14V and even little more they start to give more then 25kV and thats the voltage Mitsu cant handle.
Basicly ignition coil work like high voltage transforer. When its supouse to work with lets say 10V and when we suply him woth lets say 14V
then we changing the transformer input and output values.
Yo this is awesome.
I was never able to get around to using resistors due to my Dyna frying before I got to it. Never done it with the stock TCI but from the sounds of your write up it seems it would be beneficial to the life of the COP to add resistors as well.
If you do the power calculations with the resistors in series the current flow through both of them will be the same assuming 2.8 ohms resistance, then the current (calculated) will be 4.3 amps. Less amps means less heat and like you said also means less chance of misfire through jumping to the head.
Then to find the voltage drop across the first resistor, 1 ohm in this case, it would be 4.3 volt drop. So the power rating of the resistor, P=I*V or 4.3ax4.3v would have to be 20 watts or higher.
It is cool you were able to verify what I was never able to get around to doing.
satariel666
Well-Known Member
Thanks.
Why i've done this exodus is im sick with stock cracking coils, stock cracking wires, stock cracking caps....i really not wanted to get "bigger" spark as some folks mentioned. IMO its like i've wrote above.
Fargo, before i've started those things i've done many calculations.
Evrything looked like your calcs, but reality is little diffrent.
Why?
I've asked myself about this many times :ummm:
First thing is HEAT in resistor. Our cals may be 100% correct only when
we get IDEAL/PERFECT resistor. We all know that something like this simply do not exist. In resistor we have not only resistance but inductance and capacity as well. And really we cant get Ohm and Kirchoff laws literally.
You're using wrong formula for power in RESISTOR.
Its should be like this: P=U2/R
So lets say: 14V*14V/2,8Ohm(total resistance)
So its give as even 70W.
You will ask: So why your 50W its only little warm?
Couse current in ignition coil is not constant but impulse.
If we want do know the peak power exatlcy we must connect it to osciloscope.
It can be calculated but, its extreme dificult.
Its not important anyway.
I think 4,8A its safe value for DYNA3000.
I've also changed ignition fuse to 7,5A.
Tomorrow ill try to make some serious ride.
This is the resistor i've used but 1 Ohm and 1%.
satariel666
Well-Known Member
Ok so i've ride some today, switching first to curve 5 and then curve 3.
Hmm maybe im seeing things but i think its revs much smother but a little slower :ummm:
I dunno...long time has past since my last ride with dyna TCI...:confused2:
I mean this thig is a screamer with Marks 4-2-1, maybe im really seiing thins?
Met lots of bikers today, is was really sunny today.
Mostly sportbikes.
Beat some 600cc preatty badly, about 2-3 bike lenghts.
Met one guy on liter gixer. I was lucky to lunuch from light almost like rocket, he also have a good start and i've beat him about one lenth bike up to 100 mph but once he get his bike revs he passed away :rofl_200:
Also made some ride on highway testing max speed with venture pumpkin.
Man, i need a cowl...:rofl_200:
Max what i've get able was 253kmh, i think it can be little more but i didnit wanna fly like superman :rofl_200:
Really, i need a cowl...
Athe the end im about 400miles total with COP's and DYNA3000 and with 7,5A ignition fuse and i have no any slightes problem.
Yyyyy once i couldt start the bike, but turn off and again turn on the ignition key and she fired in half second. Why? :ummm:
Dunno. That happen to me only once :confused2:
Hmm maybe im seeing things but i think its revs much smother but a little slower :ummm:
I dunno...long time has past since my last ride with dyna TCI...:confused2:
I mean this thig is a screamer with Marks 4-2-1, maybe im really seiing thins?
Met lots of bikers today, is was really sunny today.
Mostly sportbikes.
Beat some 600cc preatty badly, about 2-3 bike lenghts.
Met one guy on liter gixer. I was lucky to lunuch from light almost like rocket, he also have a good start and i've beat him about one lenth bike up to 100 mph but once he get his bike revs he passed away :rofl_200:
Also made some ride on highway testing max speed with venture pumpkin.
Man, i need a cowl...:rofl_200:
Max what i've get able was 253kmh, i think it can be little more but i didnit wanna fly like superman :rofl_200:
Really, i need a cowl...
Athe the end im about 400miles total with COP's and DYNA3000 and with 7,5A ignition fuse and i have no any slightes problem.
Yyyyy once i couldt start the bike, but turn off and again turn on the ignition key and she fired in half second. Why? :ummm:
Dunno. That happen to me only once :confused2:
Thanks for doing all this research. I'm sure a lot of members here appreciate all the info that you're providing.
One thing I want to mention though,,,,,,,,,,,, when I found out that my Mitsubishi COP's where causing the problems I was experiencing (intermittent shutoff), I switched to the Denso units. Have not had one problem at all, since the swap. I understand that you think the Mitsubishi's were getting too much voltage, but if you look at the Yamaha R1 electrical schematic (I had COP's from an R1), you'll see that it's almost like the Vmax with the COP's being fed with the full 12volts supply. So I don't think that the problem was that I was overloading it with my Vmax electrical system.
What I did find out later on, was that there was actually a recall on the COP's from some bikes. Yamaha, and I believe Suzuki both had a recall on the COP's for certain model sport bikes and I think also for both the Denso and Mitsubishi's for certain models. I think that there was probably manufacturing defects or design faults on certain model's COP's. I'm trying to find the recall notice that I found on the web, but it stated that the bikes would intermittently 'turn off' and could cause an accicent. Just like what I experienced with my Mitsubishi COP's on my bike.
The fix was to bring the bike in and have the COP's replaced on the affected models.
For me, the fix was to switch to the Denso COP's.
Vinnie
One thing I want to mention though,,,,,,,,,,,, when I found out that my Mitsubishi COP's where causing the problems I was experiencing (intermittent shutoff), I switched to the Denso units. Have not had one problem at all, since the swap. I understand that you think the Mitsubishi's were getting too much voltage, but if you look at the Yamaha R1 electrical schematic (I had COP's from an R1), you'll see that it's almost like the Vmax with the COP's being fed with the full 12volts supply. So I don't think that the problem was that I was overloading it with my Vmax electrical system.
What I did find out later on, was that there was actually a recall on the COP's from some bikes. Yamaha, and I believe Suzuki both had a recall on the COP's for certain model sport bikes and I think also for both the Denso and Mitsubishi's for certain models. I think that there was probably manufacturing defects or design faults on certain model's COP's. I'm trying to find the recall notice that I found on the web, but it stated that the bikes would intermittently 'turn off' and could cause an accicent. Just like what I experienced with my Mitsubishi COP's on my bike.
The fix was to bring the bike in and have the COP's replaced on the affected models.
For me, the fix was to switch to the Denso COP's.
Vinnie
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