Can't put into neutral

Discussion in 'Clutch' started by Radman, Jun 15, 2019.

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  1. Jun 15, 2019 #1

    Radman

    Radman

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    Hi,
    I have a problem with my clutch. Doesn't slip or anything but I can't put it in neutral without little rev. Bleed and that didn't help. Is it the plates, spring?
     
  2. Jun 15, 2019 #2

    Fire-medic

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    Your master cyl could be leaking, your slave cyl could be leaking.

    You can add your location to your avatar area, click-on the little person in the upper right corner, and you can add it. That helps if you are looking at parts, or services. You can also put your year of your bike.

    How-much free-play do you have from a lever before you meet resistance? If your lever is coming back halfway to the handlebar before you have resistance, you have low brake fluid, air in the line, or either a worn-out master cyl or a worn-out slave cyl.

    Friction plates wear-out, diaphragm springs that the bike uses rarely-do.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2019
  3. Jun 16, 2019 #3

    MaxMidnight

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    Is this a new problem?
    Getting neutral on the Max can be difficult so yours may be par for the course.
    Try reducing the tick-over is set on the low side of the spec and see if that helps.

    Agree with Mr Medic that it could be a slightly dragging clutch.
    Try tying the lever back over night which will often release any trapped air.
     
  4. Jun 16, 2019 #4

    Radman

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    The problem started few months ago. 9 out of 10 times it's not gonna jump into neutral. Simply jams. Little rev and it jumps in. Went to garage and got the fluid changed, bleed. Slightly better but didn't eliminate the problem. Guy said that to fix it he needs to order a part for the clutch. Now I need to change the oil, replace a seal so I'm gonna be working on the bike anyways hence my question. The lever is operating fine, catches quite "early" and that didn't change before or after the issue started.
     
  5. Jun 16, 2019 #5

    Fire-medic

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    What year is your bike?

    Did you ask him, "what part for the clutch?" That diagnosis could help you to understand what's happening, or it would help us to understand.
     
  6. Jun 16, 2019 #6

    Radman

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    1997; he did mention it, thing is I don't remember that's why I'm here. Worst case scenario I'll just take the bike to him again
     
  7. Jun 16, 2019 #7

    MaxMidnight

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    Mr Medic asks a very pertinent question; I would want to know what the part was and ask if he is prepared to guarantee that it will fix the issue.
    If he isn't then I would be skeptical about his diagnosis.

    Assuming that the system is free of air then there are three things that can cause the clutch not to fully disengage.
    Issues with the master would be that it isn't getting full movement due to a worn lever pivot or the push-rod being a about f or it is loosing pressure. If the latter then I would expect this to get progressively worse to the stage where all gears are affected.
    The slave cylinders could (but IMO unlikely) be that it can't give full movement due to a build up of corrosion. Any leaking from the seals would cause the same problems the the m/c would give.
    Are you loosing fluid?
    The last part of the system would be the hose and in particular the rubber portion. If it is the original fitment it is now some 22 years old and it may be that the rubber is swelling as you pressurise the system which prevents full dis-engagement.
     
  8. Jun 17, 2019 #8

    Pighuntingpuppy

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    Huh...And here I was thinking it was just a normal part of Vmax life, LOL. Mine does the same thing but only when hot. I have no leaks, fluid is clean and clear, and mine has maybe an 1/8" of movement before "grabbing". This has been evident ever since I got mine. Thats why I thought it was a "normal" issue.
     
  9. Jun 17, 2019 #9

    Edward

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    These transmissions CAN be a trick to get into neutral. This is a well documented trait. The way I read your question is that when you try to put the transmission into neutral from 1st gear, the transmission shifts into 2nd. The routine you describe is the most successful "work around." It takes a feel. Apply a small amount of pressure and then blip the throttle. Sometimes it shifts into 2nd but you will develop a feel that becomes second nature.
     
  10. Jun 17, 2019 #10

    Julian Tomkins

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    I raise the revs by a couple of hundred and it goes in easy on my bike
     
    sdt354 likes this.
  11. Jun 17, 2019 #11

    Radman

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    I know what you mean and I agree that when it works it's very smooth to the point you can sometimes flip 1st to 2nd missing the neutral. My issue is that 9 out of 10 times and only when standing still (example traffic lights) it will jam as if there was no gears. Push, pull but you only feel resistance.
     
  12. Jun 17, 2019 #12

    Radman

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    True, if I up the revs it works fine but it wasn't always like that and it's annoying in some circumstances. I'll take it apart on Monday to see the discs and let you know
     
  13. Jun 18, 2019 #13

    El Canadiense

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    I had experimented with different engine oils while travelling through Mexico. Even tried some coloured engine oils that looked cool seen through my see-through side covers. I found that a lot of the oils I used caused trouble engaging neutral and when I switched back to Yamalube, it worked fine again. Also had some clutch basket issues that I fixed with a small handfile another time. Smoothed out the grooved areas and haven't had a problem since. Have heard Rotella works fine also but haven't tried it. Yamalube was easier for me to find in other countries than any other specific brand.
     
  14. Jun 18, 2019 #14

    Edward

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    In this case, you need to briefly release the clutch handle to move the gears out of alignment Immediately depress the clutch handle, then slowly lift the shift lever until the transmission drops into neutral. It's just a quick partial release and subsequent grab.
     
  15. Jun 24, 2019 #15

    Radman

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    Hi again,
    So for everyone interested in the topic, after replacing the clutch plates the problem disappeared. Thank you for your help guys.
     
  16. Jun 24, 2019 #16

    Pighuntingpuppy

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    Glad to hear you got it sorted out. What did you find in the old plates? Anything stand out?
     
  17. Jun 24, 2019 #17

    Fire-medic

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    Still interested in "a part" your mechanic thought needed to be replaced, can you ask him what part it is, maybe show you on the clutch fiche (drawing)?

    Who replaced the clutch plates, you or a mechanic? What did the steelies look like, any bluing or warping? What oil are you using? Did you change it when the friction discs were changed? Always ask for your parts back, so you can see what was up with them.
     
  18. Jun 24, 2019 #18

    Edward

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    I don't see that clutch plates are NECESSARILY the cause of the problem here.

    Friction discs that are only worn, would not manifest as the problem you describe. A released clutch is a released clutch. They are either driving or... they are not! With these monsters, you would DEFINITELY experience clutch slippage under acceleration with worn friction discs.

    Swelled friction material or warped discs may cause the transmission to shift THROUGH neutral and that WAS your complaint. They would also manifest as a loud "clunk" when shifting OUT of neutral. This problem would also make shifting into other gears, while under way, rough; sometimes even causing incomplete engagement (and subsequent popping out of gear) or clashing. An adjustment of the clutch lever free-play would likely correct this IF the discs were within specs.

    Please post back and let us know what the discs looked like. A grooved clutch basket can interfere with clutch operation as well. Ditto, the incorrect oil.

    Since you DID clear the problem, it's likely when you replaced the clutch discs, you also took time to properly adjust the shift linkage and the clutch and bleed the master. It may have been incorrectly assembled by a previous mechanic. It doesn't hurt to PM the clutch and your discs may have been bad.

    One further point. When a hot engine is shut down and the discs cool in a compressed state, they tend to stick when the engine is subsequently started. I like to shift the transmission into a higher gear (2nd or 3rd) and rock the bike with the clutch engaged. This frees up the plates and makes starting less of a strain on the starter and lessens the "clunk" when first shifting into gear.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2019
  19. Jun 24, 2019 #19

    Edward

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    Yup!
     

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