Clutch plates total width specification

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kingmel

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In service manual for Vmax gen2 2009 it stand that total width specification for clutch are 45,5 to 46,1mm. Out of specification - adjust.
On my bike I measure 10 pieces both old and new friction plates as 30,4mm. (So old friction plates are still ok)
I measure 9 pieces old clutch plates to 18,5mm. (there are 8 plates with 2mm and 1 plate 2,6mm)
Total width are 48,9mm.

If you use 7 clutch plate as 2mm and 2 plates as 1,6mm, you will get total of clutch plates as 17,2mm.
That will be a total width 47,6mm when you measure clutch plates and frictions plates together.
Still out of specification.

Service manual only tell you to change clutch plate 1 and clutch plate 2 so you can reach specification, but I can`t see it is possible to do it if you just change plate 1 and 2.
Can it be wrong number for total width specification in manual.?

So what do you do when you change your clutch?

How important are this specification and what happens when total width are bigger than specification?

I download service manual for Vmax 2018 this evening and there is the total width specification 47,4 - 48,0mm.
I check at partzilla.com and can't find any parts that are different on clutch for 2009 or 2018.
Anybody know why service manual for 2009 says 45,5 to 46,1mm?
 
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kingmel

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I talk to my dealer today and he check workshop repair manual for Vmax 1700 2009 and specification for total width is 47,4 - 48,0mm.

My Service Manual for 2009 with number : LIT-11616-22-64 2S3-28197-10 have wrong numbers for this specification.

I order new plates and hopefully it will measure 47,9 - 48,0mm as total.
Change plate 1 from 2,6mm to 1,6mm.
 

kingmel

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What made you decide to inspect...clutch slipping?

No, clutch don`t slipping.

I bought this 2009 model in Netherland in February 2020 with 2207 km on it and import it to Norway.
I still run on tires from end of 2008, so I belive km are correct.
Everything I check look like new.
But there was 2 owners.
First one own it for 9 years and only drive it 1077 km. It has to much power fro him, but he was a car shop owner, so keep it inside his office so he can look at it every day;-)
Second owner own it for 2 years.
When I get it to Norway I didn't like this clutch. I was to hard and has to much noise.
I send an email to dealer who has service on it in Netherland and they tell me they check break fluid, but not clutch fluid. They change engine oil and coolant.
I inspect and clutch fluid was very black, so I change both brakes and clutch fluid.
It was better but still not how I like it.
I decide to change both master cylinder and slave cylinder and reverse bleed fluid.
(It was cheaper to change this part than have a dealer inspect clutch system.)
Now it was much better, but still think it is possible to get it better.
I order from partzilla: master cylinder, slave cylinder, clutch friction plates, clutch cover because of a very small scratches under the brake pedal and gaskets.
This week I change clutch cover and because I already open, I decide to change the friction plates, just to be sure they are ok.
I decide to measure the clutch pack and then I see it was 2,8mm more than specification.
Dealer find out that my repair manual was wrong and it is 0,9mm more than specification.

After I install new friction plates, I put bike in first gear, pull in lever and try to move bike.
It was more heavy to move and don't feel ok.
I start it and drive it maximum 1km before I was back in garage. I feel it was worse than before.
I decide to pull the lever and hold it in with cable ties for 1,5 hours, then start engine in N and warm it up with the lever pulled in. Stop motor and let it stand 1 hours more with lever pulled in. But do not take a test drive.

Go to dealer yesterday and ask about specification of clutch pack width.
He didn't know that it has to be measured.
He also tell me it was normal that clutch was like I describe just after I change friction plates.
Also tell me to do a test drive and check how it is after some miles.

I take a test-drive this evening and clutch feel ok just after some hundred meters.
It was more smooth. Also when downshifting from 5 to 4 and 4 to 3 gear on highway in 90km/h.
Today this bike has about 6500km, and it is first time I feel downshift has been smooth and ok.

I order new steel plates from my dealer and will get them next week, but not sure if there is a reason to change it and reduce the clutch pack from 48,9mm to 48,0mm and have it inside specification 47,4 to 48,0mm.
But if I change them, all clutch plates are new and master and slave cylinder is new, so think I have done all I can do to get the clutch as smooth as possible.

I don`t know if it will be more smooth if I get it inside specification. Only know it is bigger than specification now.

I measure the old friction plates today with a new digital measure tool. It is 30,3mm, so it is only 0,1mm different from the new friction plates that are 30,4mm.
 

ShawnD

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The clutch was too hard when you first rode it? Did you find it had 2 diaphragm springs in it when you took the plates out? That is a common upgrade & would explain a harder lever pull. Dark clutch fluid is common...engine heat would be my guess but every time I've changed the fluid it's dark. I really wish you hadn't done so much trying to resolve this. Unless the previous owners were abusing the bike badly, it's doubtful the clutch plates needed changing...the mileage just isn't nearly enough to warrant it. When you put new plates in, did you soak them in engine oil prior to install? Were the steel plates discolored, blue? That would indicate overheating from abuse so I wouldn't change them if they weren't.
 

kingmel

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Clutch lever are ok, but I mean it was too much noise at downshifts, also sometimes on upshifts, like hydraulic system don't open the gap between the clutch plates enough.
It was only one diaphragm springs installed, but I also change that one;-)
If I want to do DD, I can use both of them later;-)
After I buy this bike, I sold my old Suzuki Madura 1200 I have been a happy owner for 27years to my brother. We change clutch fluid on that bike and it was not black. On that bike it has not been changed clutch fluid for the last 15-20 years, so don't think engine heat can make it black. Fluid was brown, but not black on this bike. Madura has the same hydraulic system with master and slave cylinder.
When I inspect master cylinder on my Vmax, fluid level was low and had some crystallized particles around reservoir diaphragm and in the fluid. There was no leakage. This hard particles was big enough to block the tiny hole in master cylinder.
I decide to change both master and slave cylinder because I don't want to open and check and then order parts. I want to change to be sure there was no more crystallized particles in the hydraulic system.
All old friction and steel plates look fine. No discolored.
So previous owner was very careful with this bike;-)

Yeah, I soak the new friction plates with new engine oil.

I only know that my clutch is much better now. I also read on this forum it was a person who change clutch 3 times before it was ok on a 2018 - 2019 model. I don't remember what was the problem...
 
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ShawnD

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well I'm happy your clutch is working better for you. I had an older gen 2 a few years ago & the clutch fluid was very dark every time I changed it & that was with a yearly fluid change. I've had other bikes that didn't turn as dark as it does on the Vmax too...engine heat was just a guess. I understand about replacing parts instead of inspecting...a lot less down time. I'd hang on to those parts as spares.
 

Parminio

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My mechanic said that dark colour comes from rubber hose, don’t know if its true or not.
If we're talking about the clutch hydraulic fluid going dark it's typically down to heat, moister oxidation and age. Same thing happens to brake fluid. In fact, they are both the same thing.

It is usually more pronounced on rubber hoses though as brake fluid is so hygroscopic that it can draw water through the pores in the rubber hoses much better than it can steel lines.
 

kingmel

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"The clutch hydraulic fluid going dark it's typically down to heat, moister oxidation and age".

Yeah, it's a combination of this 3 things.
I think, if you get moister in clutch/brake fluid, then age and heat will make fluid be darker.
I never do service on hydraulic clutch or brakes in my garage if it is raining outside and I never drive if it is possible it will start raining.
My bikes only be wet when I wash them. Always park inside garage.
Previous owner also tell me he never drive if it is wet outside.

I have only done one 50km test drive. On that trip I feel the clutch is better after change friction plates. Now, when I come to a roundabout and need downshift to 3 or 2 gear, I feel it is like my old Suzuki, but when I get this bike and I have to do the same downshift I feel it was too much noice from clutch and gearbox and I was afraid to destroy my gearbox.

It's a much better feeling to drive when you feel everything is ok with your bike.

If I inspect before I order parts, down time will be around one week, because Norwegian dealers don't have parts in store, so they order it from a big store in Netherland.
Before it takes up to 3 weeks before you get parts from dealer. That's why I order parts from Bikebandit and Partzilla. From Bikebandit it takes only 4-5 days.

I talk to workshop boss today and he is the man to talk with about Vmax in my city. He tell me if he buy a bike that only drive 1077km for 9 years he also will change friction plates because, when bike stand for a long time, friction plates will dry out. When you start engine, clutch will be dry until engine oil can go between clutch plates.
Manual also tell you to use engine oil on friction plates before install. It is a reason for doing that.....

Master and slave cylinder cost in total the same as 2 hour in Yamaha workshop, so for me it was a easy choice;-)
 

DreamV4

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Usually (most bikes) only clutch spring(s) needs replacement, because it is always compressed (ride or not). People keep replacing clutch discs, which are in perfects condition. Motorcycle clutch discs are identical to car automatic transmission clutches and they last about 150k miles.
When you check discs, measuring freeplay (lever pulled) is more important than discs thickness.
 

desert_max

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Usually (most bikes) only clutch spring(s) needs replacement, because it is always compressed (ride or not). People keep replacing clutch discs, which are in perfects condition. Motorcycle clutch discs are identical to car automatic transmission clutches and they last about 150k miles.
When you check discs, measuring freeplay (lever pulled) is more important than discs thickness.

That may be true on "most" motorcycles, but fiber disks on Mr. Max do, in fact, go away on occasion. Not as quickly as my CBX (which can roast a clutch in a season if I'm a bad boy), but the Vmax is rough on clutches. There are a few tricks out to prolong them, but it is what it is...
 

ShawnD

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That may be true on "most" motorcycles, but fiber disks on Mr. Max do, in fact, go away on occasion. Not as quickly as my CBX (which can roast a clutch in a season if I'm a bad boy), but the Vmax is rough on clutches. There are a few tricks out to prolong them, but it is what it is...

One 'trick' would be the DD mod...and he's got the 2nd spring to do it now. Kingmel, is there anybody else where you are with a Vmax? Are you sure some of this stuff isn't your imagination? I'm not trying to insult but wondering if a second opinion would help.
 

DreamV4

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That may be true on "most" motorcycles, but fiber disks on Mr. Max do, in fact, go away on occasion. Not as quickly as my CBX (which can roast a clutch in a season if I'm a bad boy), but the Vmax is rough on clutches. There are a few tricks out to prolong them, but it is what it is...
too bad for you, you mentioned it, now you have to show us picture of your CBX!!!!!!!!!!!
 

kingmel

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One 'trick' would be the DD mod...and he's got the 2nd spring to do it now. Kingmel, is there anybody else where you are with a Vmax? Are you sure some of this stuff isn't your imagination? I'm not trying to insult but wondering if a second opinion would help.

No, I have only seen Vmax 1700 in my city 2 times. I think it was the same person and he lives 5 hours away from my city. The reason he was in my city, was service on his bike. ....
He has a 2016 and bought it new.

If I find someone, of course it help to get a second opinion.

When I change master and slave cylinder I also change engine oil from Semi synthetic 10W 40 to Fully synthetic 10W 40.
Maybe this oil is better for wet clutch and therefor i feel clutch / gearbox is better;-)

There is no doubt, clutch is better now then it was when I get this bike;-)
 

desert_max

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One 'trick' would be the DD mod...and he's got the 2nd spring to do it now. Kingmel, is there anybody else where you are with a Vmax? Are you sure some of this stuff isn't your imagination? I'm not trying to insult but wondering if a second opinion would help.

Yep. Stronger spring, full rear disk and a little luck. All in my '86 and so far, so good. But, I try not to slip a clutch too much. I treat it a bit more digitally.
 

kingmel

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I received new clutch plates yesterday from my dealer.

Old plates: 8 x 2,0mm + 1 x 2,6mm measured to 18,5mm
I think this is how they was delivered new, not wear.

New plates: 8 x 2,0mm + 1 x 2,6mm measured to 18,8mm

New plates and new friction plates will be 49,2mm. This is 1,2mm more than specification in manual.

Because OEM plates from Yamaha has accuracy +/ - 0,1mm. One plate can be from 1,90mm to 2,10mm. This is the reason it has to be measured if you change them.

I dont decide yet if I will change them.

My dealer tell me he think it is strange my old friction plates was not installed correct according to manual.
Manual says install 9 plates on left side of mark and offset plate on mark.

Mine was installed: 9 plate on right side of mark and offset plate was moved one more to right side.
Previous owner show me a spring. Maybe he had DD on this bike and he has done something in clutch or that was a spring he used in his previous Vmax. He had a gen 2 that was driven about 16000km before he buy this bike and sell it when he buy this bike.
 

DreamV4

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I received new clutch plates yesterday from my dealer.

Old plates: 8 x 2,0mm + 1 x 2,6mm measured to 18,5mm
I think this is how they was delivered new, not wear.

New plates: 8 x 2,0mm + 1 x 2,6mm measured to 18,8mm

New plates and new friction plates will be 49,2mm. This is 1,2mm more than specification in manual.

Because OEM plates from Yamaha has accuracy +/ - 0,1mm. One plate can be from 1,90mm to 2,10mm. This is the reason it has to be measured if you change them.

I dont decide yet if I will change them.

My dealer tell me he think it is strange my old friction plates was not installed correct according to manual.
Manual says install 9 plates on left side of mark and offset plate on mark.

Mine was installed: 9 plate on right side of mark and offset plate was moved one more to right side.
Previous owner show me a spring. Maybe he had DD on this bike and he has done something in clutch or that was a spring he used in his previous Vmax. He had a gen 2 that was driven about 16000km before he buy this bike and sell it when he buy this bike.
You need to combine new/old plates to get right thickness. I installed extra steel plate for one of my bikes to get everything right (all plates were new)
 

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kingmel

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You need to combine new/old plates to get right thickness. I installed extra steel plate for one of my bikes to get everything right (all plates were new)
There should be clearance freeplay check.

I have 2 new 1,6mm clutch plates available, and will get one more 2,0mm next week, so I have enough new plates to change plate 1 or change plate 1 and 2 according to manual.
But how important is it to get in inside specification 47,4 -48,0mm?

When I open this clutch it was 48,9mm. That means it will be less freeplay between plates when you pull lever when thickness of clutch package is more then specified in manual.
 
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