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Tex85
Well-Known Member
Eh, I have always lived in a state where helmets are optional so this is a non-issue. I personally think anyone riding without a helmet has a death wish and won't do it myself but I do think all riders should be able to make that choice for themselves.
Traumahawk
Well-Known Member
The thing that I find funny about the article.....the article has incorrect facts.
Tougher standards will help authorities prosecute sellers of noncompliant helmets in states where helmets are mandatory, regulators said. Just three of the 50 U.S. states - Illinois, Iowa and New Hampshire - do not require motorcycle riders to wear helmets, according to the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety, a nonprofit research group.
The part that She left out, was that there are a LOT of states that have partial laws. If you are 17-18...etc, then you have to wear one. Above that age.....you dont have to. The article is slanted to the authors point of view.
http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/laws/helmetuse/mapmotorcyclehelmets
State Motorcycle law
Alabama All riders
Alaska 17 and younger
Arizona 17 and younger
Arkansas 20 and younger
California All riders
Colorado 17 and younger riders and passengers
Connecticut 17 and younger
Delaware 18 and younger
District of Columbia All riders
Florida 20 and younger
Georgia All riders
Hawaii 17 and younger
Idaho 17 and younger
Illinois No law
Indiana 17 and younger
Iowa No law
Kansas 17 and younger
Kentucky 20 and younger
Louisiana All riders
Maine 17 and younger
Maryland All riders
Massachusetts All riders
Michigan 20 and younger
Minnesota 17 and younger
Mississippi All riders
Missouri All riders
Montana 17 and younger
Nebraska All riders
Nevada All riders
New Hampshire No law
New Jersey All riders
New Mexico 17 and younger
New York All riders
North Carolina All riders
North Dakota 17 and younger
Ohio 17 and younger
Oklahoma 17 and younger
Oregon All riders
Pennsylvania 20 and younger
Rhode Island 20 and younger
South Carolina 20 and younger
South Dakota 17 and younger
Tennessee All riders
Texas 20 and younger
Utah 17 and younger
Vermont All riders
Virginia All riders
Washington All riders
West Virginia All riders
Wisconsin 17 and younger
Wyoming 17 and younger
Tougher standards will help authorities prosecute sellers of noncompliant helmets in states where helmets are mandatory, regulators said. Just three of the 50 U.S. states - Illinois, Iowa and New Hampshire - do not require motorcycle riders to wear helmets, according to the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety, a nonprofit research group.
The part that She left out, was that there are a LOT of states that have partial laws. If you are 17-18...etc, then you have to wear one. Above that age.....you dont have to. The article is slanted to the authors point of view.
http://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/laws/helmetuse/mapmotorcyclehelmets
State Motorcycle law
Alabama All riders
Alaska 17 and younger
Arizona 17 and younger
Arkansas 20 and younger
California All riders
Colorado 17 and younger riders and passengers
Connecticut 17 and younger
Delaware 18 and younger
District of Columbia All riders
Florida 20 and younger
Georgia All riders
Hawaii 17 and younger
Idaho 17 and younger
Illinois No law
Indiana 17 and younger
Iowa No law
Kansas 17 and younger
Kentucky 20 and younger
Louisiana All riders
Maine 17 and younger
Maryland All riders
Massachusetts All riders
Michigan 20 and younger
Minnesota 17 and younger
Mississippi All riders
Missouri All riders
Montana 17 and younger
Nebraska All riders
Nevada All riders
New Hampshire No law
New Jersey All riders
New Mexico 17 and younger
New York All riders
North Carolina All riders
North Dakota 17 and younger
Ohio 17 and younger
Oklahoma 17 and younger
Oregon All riders
Pennsylvania 20 and younger
Rhode Island 20 and younger
South Carolina 20 and younger
South Dakota 17 and younger
Tennessee All riders
Texas 20 and younger
Utah 17 and younger
Vermont All riders
Virginia All riders
Washington All riders
West Virginia All riders
Wisconsin 17 and younger
Wyoming 17 and younger
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I grew up in Wyo, no helmet law once you were over 18. I have to agree, it should be up the the person on the bike. Uncle sam gave us tougher standards if we were in the service, I did enjoy the 1st time I had to take the Advanced course, minus having to pay for it.. I like both my full face and half hemet. But at times I don't want to have to go grab it when I am testing out the bike....
Biker Dash
Well-Known Member
Actually, in Maine, if you are on your 1st year of your license, you are required to wear one as well.
If you have had your motorcycle endorsement for more than a year and are 18 years of age or older, then you are no longer required to wear a helmet.
Yes it may be your choice not to wear helmets, but what about your children losing their father, or being in a bedridden, incapacitated state for the rest of your life?
FL doesn't require adults to wear helmets if they have certain insurance, but I won't ride my bike around the block w/o one. I won't ride my bicycle w/o one either. That said, I've scrapped two of each in riding accidents which probably would have left me very hurt or worse than that w/o one.
And since I was required to wear a helmet on the job, I had many incidents where a helmet saved my bacon. Once fighting a restaurant fire, I was in the porte cochere (the open-sided roofed car queueing restaurant entrance) when a 4 x 8' sheet of plywood dislodged from the ceiling while I was directly under it. It fell flat onto me (my helmeted head) and knocked me to the ground. It sure surprised the *(&%^%! out of me, but no injuries, thanks to my Cairns Philadelphia (not mine but similar). Made of leather w/a suspension system.
FL doesn't require adults to wear helmets if they have certain insurance, but I won't ride my bike around the block w/o one. I won't ride my bicycle w/o one either. That said, I've scrapped two of each in riding accidents which probably would have left me very hurt or worse than that w/o one.
And since I was required to wear a helmet on the job, I had many incidents where a helmet saved my bacon. Once fighting a restaurant fire, I was in the porte cochere (the open-sided roofed car queueing restaurant entrance) when a 4 x 8' sheet of plywood dislodged from the ceiling while I was directly under it. It fell flat onto me (my helmeted head) and knocked me to the ground. It sure surprised the *(&%^%! out of me, but no injuries, thanks to my Cairns Philadelphia (not mine but similar). Made of leather w/a suspension system.
invalidsession
Well-Known Member
If the law requires a helmet to be worn in your particular state then at the very least wear an approved one. People wearing "party hats" are asking for trouble imho.
Chris
Chris
PATMAX
Well-Known Member
Don't I look cool with my WW1 German Spike helmet?
Captain Kyle's helmet is a # 64 rubber band the keeps his flowing locks cold from getting in his way.
Captain Kyle's helmet is a # 64 rubber band the keeps his flowing locks cold from getting in his way.
Tex85
Well-Known Member
Lmao!
LOL Well it works ! I wore my helmet most of the time in Florida but not all the time. Although I am not a religious person I do believe everyone has a number & when your numbers up your gone don't matter if your sitting on the couch or jumping out of a plane or riding your bike. That is just my belief so if you want to wear a helmet ok & if not ok.
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brad bruggeman
Well-Known Member
That's a cop out!So I guess if your sick,why go to the Dr?If it's your time,it's your time.I agree it is not the government's place to tell us we have to wear helmets but it is only common sense to try to protect yourself from harm .Common sense is not so common these days!!
Well I am not going to argue you have your beliefs and I have mine I don't call it a cop out but if you see it that way it's fine. By the way I am not a keyboard warrior feel free to call me and discuss it 813 270 0000 but like I said you have your beliefs and I have mine and I am not trying to change anyone's simple as that.
Hellboy
Well-Known Member
Firstly, I don't have children so that is no concern of mine. Secondly, if someone is that worried of leaving there children without a father, maybe they shouldn't ride a motorcycle at all? There are many things that are more dangerous than motorcycle riding and many of them you have NO control over the situation. Having to wear a helmet is just taking away a little bit more of the control that I do have.Yes it may be your choice not to wear helmets, but what about your children losing their father, or being in a bedridden, incapacitated state for the rest of your life?
FL doesn't require adults to wear helmets if they have certain insurance, but I won't ride my bike around the block w/o one. I won't ride my bicycle w/o one either. That said, I've scrapped two of each in riding accidents which probably would have left me very hurt or worse than that w/o one.
And since I was required to wear a helmet on the job, I had many incidents where a helmet saved my bacon. Once fighting a restaurant fire, I was in the porte cochere (the open-sided roofed car queueing restaurant entrance) when a 4 x 8' sheet of plywood dislodged from the ceiling while I was directly under it. It fell flat onto me (my helmeted head) and knocked me to the ground. It sure surprised the *(&%^%! out of me, but no injuries, thanks to my Cairns Philadelphia (not mine but similar). Made of leather w/a suspension system.
I never wore a helmet in the states even when I was a 6 year old on my first bike. Since moving to Australia where there is a helmet law, unfortunately, I do now. I've never had so many close calls as I've had since living here and I blame the helmet on many of them. The sweat and extreme heat when riding on a 100+ degree day is very distracting all by itself. The lack of peripheral vision is the biggest concern. People say with a good helmet it's not bad, Bullshit it isn't! they must have never ridden without one obviously. You have to turn your whole head away from the front to be sure of what's next to you, no glancing. Hearing is also very diminished. Once again, people tell me it's not that bad, my point is any less aware, IS that bad, horns honking, tires screeching, sirens, or just hearing the engine noise of a car on your quarter.
I have no problem with anyone wanting to wear a helmet, why the hell do the care if I don't? Sure I'd rather have a helmet on if I got in an accident, but I can tell you that I'm much more likely to get in an accident because I have a helmet on.
Matt
98Redlne
Well-Known Member
My thought on helmet laws: There should be none for those above some age. Call it 18 or 20 whatever, pick a number. Once you are of age to legally make your own decisions, it should be your decision alone.
It comes down to personal responsibility. I live in a state where I don't have to wear a helmet, yet every time I throw a leg over the Max, I strap my helmet on my head. That is just my thing. Those that wish to ride, sans helmet, that is your decision and those that do are taking responsibility for their own well being. It is the same issue as those who choose to ride a motorcycle and those that don't. It comes down to how much risk you are willing to assume.
You will never find me in a wingsuit base jumping off of mountains and cliffs, but if someone is willing to take that risk and assume responsibility for their actions, then they should be free to do so. Personal freedom over government control whenever possible
It comes down to personal responsibility. I live in a state where I don't have to wear a helmet, yet every time I throw a leg over the Max, I strap my helmet on my head. That is just my thing. Those that wish to ride, sans helmet, that is your decision and those that do are taking responsibility for their own well being. It is the same issue as those who choose to ride a motorcycle and those that don't. It comes down to how much risk you are willing to assume.
You will never find me in a wingsuit base jumping off of mountains and cliffs, but if someone is willing to take that risk and assume responsibility for their actions, then they should be free to do so. Personal freedom over government control whenever possible
First, this is not an attempt to make you change your mind. Your point of view is just as legitimate as mine.
You probably would enjoy the benefits of fatherhood. Children usually cause people to behave more-maturely, which can be a good thing, given the behavior of many young adults.
There are many things which can leave one's children fatherless. Some just take longer, like cirrhosis, diabetes, atherosclerosis, arteriosclerosis, lung cancer, prostate cancer, emphysema, cancer of the throat, tongue, esophagus; Agent Orange, drinking alcohol and driving or riding, you get the idea.
Fortunately, in many of the above, you do have control over it. Exercise, a good diet, reducing stress in your life, avoiding toxic environments (using an appropriate respirator for whatever material you're using), not smoking or chewing tobacco, don't drink and drive/ride, these are choices you can make. If you choose to do the opposite, don't come trying to sue when you become symptomatic for a life-threatening illness due to your personal choices.
If you choose to not wear a helmet and are legally allowed to do so, 'good on-ya,' if that's your choice. But the 'it's hot, and reduces my peripheral vision' argument is a weak one when any legitimate study of the use of approved helmets shows they can save the user from much-more serious injury than without one (below). Studies which confirm the motorcycle fatality victim suffered more than one potentially-fatal injury are what bear-out the dangers in the first place. Wouldn't you want to give yourself every available possibility of survival with lessened level of injuries? Some riders don't because almost every Harley rider I see in FL isn't wearing a helmet. And the girlfriend or spouse on the back has on sandals and a spaghetti-strap blouse, and no helmet. You might be the safest, most cautious non-helmeted rider around, but when the drunk , the texting teenager, the bipolar driver not on their psychoactive Rx, the nodding-off driver or whoever hits you going 55 mph (about 94 kmh for you antipodeans) while you're stopped for a traffic light then you better have CE armor in your upper & lower riding gear, good boots, propose-constructed riding gloves (no, fingerless gloves don't count) and a rated helmet instead of your Sydney Harley dealer t-shirt, Levi's and kicks.
Sure, do what you want, I'll continue to do what I want, which is to protect myself. We all have choices.
Here is a meta analysis on the issue of helmets, if you care to see what the research of fifty-three different reports had to say:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15106247
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8594214
This one studies CA riders who crashed during a three year period and who survived, and the results speak for themselves: Both the severity and the number of head injuries per individual rider decreased after the mandatory helmet use law led to increased helmet use. Riders wearing helmets suffered fewer skull fractures, fewer intracranial injuries, had less frequent and shorter periods of loss of consciousness, more favorable GCS scores,(Glasgow Coma Scores, a method of EMS and hospital personnel evaluating the injured rider for neuro injuries) and shorter hospital stays. There was a one-third reduction in serious head injuries after the helmet law. Good odds, I would take them.
Wear a Cool-Max do-rag, and buy better mirrors, and adjust them, that should help.
As for me, forty years as a firefighter/paramedic and as an EMS educator teaching first responders emergency trauma care, and transporting and treating motorcycle accident victims, and consoling family members has lead me to avail myself of any advantages I can implement, short of stopping riding. The discomforts of wearing a helmet are minimal, and I can't say I ever sustained injuries because the helmet limited my audible input to any degree.
You probably would enjoy the benefits of fatherhood. Children usually cause people to behave more-maturely, which can be a good thing, given the behavior of many young adults.
There are many things which can leave one's children fatherless. Some just take longer, like cirrhosis, diabetes, atherosclerosis, arteriosclerosis, lung cancer, prostate cancer, emphysema, cancer of the throat, tongue, esophagus; Agent Orange, drinking alcohol and driving or riding, you get the idea.
Fortunately, in many of the above, you do have control over it. Exercise, a good diet, reducing stress in your life, avoiding toxic environments (using an appropriate respirator for whatever material you're using), not smoking or chewing tobacco, don't drink and drive/ride, these are choices you can make. If you choose to do the opposite, don't come trying to sue when you become symptomatic for a life-threatening illness due to your personal choices.
If you choose to not wear a helmet and are legally allowed to do so, 'good on-ya,' if that's your choice. But the 'it's hot, and reduces my peripheral vision' argument is a weak one when any legitimate study of the use of approved helmets shows they can save the user from much-more serious injury than without one (below). Studies which confirm the motorcycle fatality victim suffered more than one potentially-fatal injury are what bear-out the dangers in the first place. Wouldn't you want to give yourself every available possibility of survival with lessened level of injuries? Some riders don't because almost every Harley rider I see in FL isn't wearing a helmet. And the girlfriend or spouse on the back has on sandals and a spaghetti-strap blouse, and no helmet. You might be the safest, most cautious non-helmeted rider around, but when the drunk , the texting teenager, the bipolar driver not on their psychoactive Rx, the nodding-off driver or whoever hits you going 55 mph (about 94 kmh for you antipodeans) while you're stopped for a traffic light then you better have CE armor in your upper & lower riding gear, good boots, propose-constructed riding gloves (no, fingerless gloves don't count) and a rated helmet instead of your Sydney Harley dealer t-shirt, Levi's and kicks.
Sure, do what you want, I'll continue to do what I want, which is to protect myself. We all have choices.
Here is a meta analysis on the issue of helmets, if you care to see what the research of fifty-three different reports had to say:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15106247
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8594214
This one studies CA riders who crashed during a three year period and who survived, and the results speak for themselves: Both the severity and the number of head injuries per individual rider decreased after the mandatory helmet use law led to increased helmet use. Riders wearing helmets suffered fewer skull fractures, fewer intracranial injuries, had less frequent and shorter periods of loss of consciousness, more favorable GCS scores,(Glasgow Coma Scores, a method of EMS and hospital personnel evaluating the injured rider for neuro injuries) and shorter hospital stays. There was a one-third reduction in serious head injuries after the helmet law. Good odds, I would take them.
Wear a Cool-Max do-rag, and buy better mirrors, and adjust them, that should help.
As for me, forty years as a firefighter/paramedic and as an EMS educator teaching first responders emergency trauma care, and transporting and treating motorcycle accident victims, and consoling family members has lead me to avail myself of any advantages I can implement, short of stopping riding. The discomforts of wearing a helmet are minimal, and I can't say I ever sustained injuries because the helmet limited my audible input to any degree.
Hellboy
Well-Known Member
I actually probably wouldn't enjoy the benefits of fatherhood, that's why I choose not to have children. If I did and was relying on a helmet to make the difference, I'd quit riding.
The discomfort thing is a very small part of it but my point was that any and all negatives add up to a bigger effect. Peripheral vision reduction is not a weak argument at all, several of my close calls that would have been my fault were due to exactly that. It would never happen without a helmet on. I would rather be less likely to get into an accident in the first place than to know I might not get hurt as bad when I do get in one. That is if you call being a quadriplegic or in a coma having to burden someone else to care for you the rest of your life with very little to look forward too for them or for you,being better than just being killed. There is a man in town here who crashed riding around the neighbourhood looking for his dog after a thunderstorm a few months ago. He is a Quadriplegic that requires 24 hour care, he was going 40 K.P.H. (25mph) and had a helmet on. The town has a fundraising campaign going to try and help his family out with the never ending care, I wouldn't wish that on anyone. Traffic wasn't a factor, heat wasn't, vision wasn't, hearing wasn't, just slipping on some gravel on a gentle bend and a whole lotta bad luck.
Once again, Good on ya! for wearing a helmet. I don't have any problem with other peoples choices about it either and I'm not trying to convince anyone that they shouldn't wear one. I'm just pointing out my reasons.It does seem though that Quoting statistics and studies and such, that people do try to convince others that they should wear them. Don't worry, the Government has already taken care of that.
Matt
The discomfort thing is a very small part of it but my point was that any and all negatives add up to a bigger effect. Peripheral vision reduction is not a weak argument at all, several of my close calls that would have been my fault were due to exactly that. It would never happen without a helmet on. I would rather be less likely to get into an accident in the first place than to know I might not get hurt as bad when I do get in one. That is if you call being a quadriplegic or in a coma having to burden someone else to care for you the rest of your life with very little to look forward too for them or for you,being better than just being killed. There is a man in town here who crashed riding around the neighbourhood looking for his dog after a thunderstorm a few months ago. He is a Quadriplegic that requires 24 hour care, he was going 40 K.P.H. (25mph) and had a helmet on. The town has a fundraising campaign going to try and help his family out with the never ending care, I wouldn't wish that on anyone. Traffic wasn't a factor, heat wasn't, vision wasn't, hearing wasn't, just slipping on some gravel on a gentle bend and a whole lotta bad luck.
Once again, Good on ya! for wearing a helmet. I don't have any problem with other peoples choices about it either and I'm not trying to convince anyone that they shouldn't wear one. I'm just pointing out my reasons.It does seem though that Quoting statistics and studies and such, that people do try to convince others that they should wear them. Don't worry, the Government has already taken care of that.
Matt
So a few degrees less peripheral vision can 'hide' a vehicle which could kill you? Ever hear of what the military fliers say about 'situational awareness?' 'Know your six.' In other words, what is behind you or outside your field of vision. Scanning constantly is a basic MSF taught skill. Be aware of your surroundings.
I've tried to ride without a face shield before, and I can't get above about 30 mph before my eyes begin to water and to interfere w/my ability to recognize what is close to me. Not because I wanted to, but my 'competition shield' on my Bell RT helmet split while trail riding, and I didn't have glasses or goggles as a backup. That was a long time ago.
Forty six years ago, one of my best friends was killing time before high school tennis practice, we were both on the team. You had to walk across the school track to get to the tennis courts. He stopped at the high jump pit, and tried something we had done in gym class dozens of times. This time, he broke his cervical vertebra. It left him a quadriplegic.
He finished school, went to college, and earned a BA in business administration. Eventually he became less independent. Last month, he died, and I had spent nearly all of the time since his accident living close to him. At times, I helped care for him. He was not a complainer. His friends from high school were very loyal to him, and he did 'have something to live for.' They visited him, and a steady stream of friends came, went, and came again, for 46 years. Even with his limitations, I bet he would tell you he would rather live than have died at the time of his spinal trauma.
As to the studies and statistics, that is how decisions are made in business, government, and sports, at all levels. Being an academic, I constantly compile and evaluate program issues using statistics. It's what I do, it's what controls decision making and it's what my bosses expect of me. It's how my program success is measured in different parameters and how the state and national accrediting bodies evaluate my program, and how a prospective college student can determine if our program and the field of study is worth spending his or her time and tuition money on. It gives him or her an idea of job pay, the likelihood of finding employment after college, and career growth over time. Statistics and reports or studies have a place in our lives without the narrow goal of being used to persuade someone to believe differently from what they once did.
I've tried to ride without a face shield before, and I can't get above about 30 mph before my eyes begin to water and to interfere w/my ability to recognize what is close to me. Not because I wanted to, but my 'competition shield' on my Bell RT helmet split while trail riding, and I didn't have glasses or goggles as a backup. That was a long time ago.
Forty six years ago, one of my best friends was killing time before high school tennis practice, we were both on the team. You had to walk across the school track to get to the tennis courts. He stopped at the high jump pit, and tried something we had done in gym class dozens of times. This time, he broke his cervical vertebra. It left him a quadriplegic.
He finished school, went to college, and earned a BA in business administration. Eventually he became less independent. Last month, he died, and I had spent nearly all of the time since his accident living close to him. At times, I helped care for him. He was not a complainer. His friends from high school were very loyal to him, and he did 'have something to live for.' They visited him, and a steady stream of friends came, went, and came again, for 46 years. Even with his limitations, I bet he would tell you he would rather live than have died at the time of his spinal trauma.
As to the studies and statistics, that is how decisions are made in business, government, and sports, at all levels. Being an academic, I constantly compile and evaluate program issues using statistics. It's what I do, it's what controls decision making and it's what my bosses expect of me. It's how my program success is measured in different parameters and how the state and national accrediting bodies evaluate my program, and how a prospective college student can determine if our program and the field of study is worth spending his or her time and tuition money on. It gives him or her an idea of job pay, the likelihood of finding employment after college, and career growth over time. Statistics and reports or studies have a place in our lives without the narrow goal of being used to persuade someone to believe differently from what they once did.
Hellboy
Well-Known Member
Actually, I do know the term "watch your six". I'm an Air Force brat of a 30 year fighter pilot and have both my fixed wing and Heli licenses which I got at age 18 and 27. Have you ever seen how far around a pilot with a helmet on has to turn to see what's going on behind him? Almost completely, with no forward vision which in an airplane doesn't matter like it does on a bike, Bad analogy.
As for your friend, I'm sorry to hear about your lose. I'm sure he had a great life and wonderful friends.
About statistics, I'd honestly like to know the percentage of deaths of people that don't wear helmets to the percentage of deaths of those that do wear helmets. Not that there are less deaths after a change of law to where everyone is wearing or not wearing but an actual direct comparison. I have never heard anyone quote this fact. I'm not sure it could be done because I doubt anyone knows how many riders wear and don't wear. That is the only statistic that would mean anything to me. Even then, like we've all said, it's all a personal risk assessment not a statistics and numbers game. If that was how we all made life choices we would all do the same safest things in the same safe way, drive the same safest cars, live in the same safest neighbourhood, not have a pool probably, because the data shows that if you don't have a pool you're less likely to drown in it. etc...
Matt
It's been a fun and interesting exchange fire-medic and if you'd like the last word, feel free. I think neither of us is right or wrong, just different views, I'm going to leave it here.
As for your friend, I'm sorry to hear about your lose. I'm sure he had a great life and wonderful friends.
About statistics, I'd honestly like to know the percentage of deaths of people that don't wear helmets to the percentage of deaths of those that do wear helmets. Not that there are less deaths after a change of law to where everyone is wearing or not wearing but an actual direct comparison. I have never heard anyone quote this fact. I'm not sure it could be done because I doubt anyone knows how many riders wear and don't wear. That is the only statistic that would mean anything to me. Even then, like we've all said, it's all a personal risk assessment not a statistics and numbers game. If that was how we all made life choices we would all do the same safest things in the same safe way, drive the same safest cars, live in the same safest neighbourhood, not have a pool probably, because the data shows that if you don't have a pool you're less likely to drown in it. etc...
Matt
It's been a fun and interesting exchange fire-medic and if you'd like the last word, feel free. I think neither of us is right or wrong, just different views, I'm going to leave it here.
Bill Seward
Well-Known Member
Don't like being TOLD to wear a helmet, and occasionally at Thunder, I go for a ride to Jim & Jimmies bar without one.. Then I start thinking of the time I totalled a 1960 Chevy with my head. It was a rustbucket, and I smacked into it on my Honda S-65.. This was in 1968, 3 days after graduation from High School. I went over the bars, and smacked the rear window with my head, hard enough to break it. The car was in such bad shape, they totalled it.
I also had the front fender on a CB160 vibrate loose and jam the front wheel at 60 mph. I ground a hole the size of a silver dollar clean through a fiberglass helmet. That was July 4th, 1970.
Both of these crashes would have been much more serious had I not been wearing a helmet.
Then, I think about our brother VMax rider who was severely injured at Thunder a couple of years ago after a seemingly minor spill. Helmetless..
I agree totally with those who do not like to be told they have to wear a helmet. Government intrusion in our lives has gone way too far, but consider this... Joe Harleyboy just bought his new 883 Sportster, and thinking he is the coolest guy on the planet, decides not to wear a helmet. He's 20 years old, works a job flipping burgers, and has no health insurance worth the paper the policy is printed on. Smacks a tree on a country road.but manages to come to stop with no physical injuries, just a good whack to the head.. $20,000 Mercy Flight later, he makes it to the hospital with a traumatic brain injury. Runs up oh, lets say another $200.000 in bills for the month he spends in intensive care. Now he gets home, needing 24/7 care for the rest of his life because his brain capacity has been reduced to that of an earthworm.... Who's gonna pay for that? We are. The state will have to care for Joe the rest of his life. Joe didn't crash on purpose, but he didn't wear the simplest safety equipment and this choice cost him his intellect, and all the rest of us perhaps millions of dollars in health care costs.
I can understand government wanting to protect society in general from these costs. Maybe the solution is to allow a rider to go helmetless only if he carries sufficent insurance to cover the results of riding without one. But that opens another can of worms... How about other high risk activities? Skydiving? BASE jumping? Riding WITH a helmet??
I have no answer for that. Not meaning to start a flame war here, just speakin' my mind..
I also had the front fender on a CB160 vibrate loose and jam the front wheel at 60 mph. I ground a hole the size of a silver dollar clean through a fiberglass helmet. That was July 4th, 1970.
Both of these crashes would have been much more serious had I not been wearing a helmet.
Then, I think about our brother VMax rider who was severely injured at Thunder a couple of years ago after a seemingly minor spill. Helmetless..
I agree totally with those who do not like to be told they have to wear a helmet. Government intrusion in our lives has gone way too far, but consider this... Joe Harleyboy just bought his new 883 Sportster, and thinking he is the coolest guy on the planet, decides not to wear a helmet. He's 20 years old, works a job flipping burgers, and has no health insurance worth the paper the policy is printed on. Smacks a tree on a country road.but manages to come to stop with no physical injuries, just a good whack to the head.. $20,000 Mercy Flight later, he makes it to the hospital with a traumatic brain injury. Runs up oh, lets say another $200.000 in bills for the month he spends in intensive care. Now he gets home, needing 24/7 care for the rest of his life because his brain capacity has been reduced to that of an earthworm.... Who's gonna pay for that? We are. The state will have to care for Joe the rest of his life. Joe didn't crash on purpose, but he didn't wear the simplest safety equipment and this choice cost him his intellect, and all the rest of us perhaps millions of dollars in health care costs.
I can understand government wanting to protect society in general from these costs. Maybe the solution is to allow a rider to go helmetless only if he carries sufficent insurance to cover the results of riding without one. But that opens another can of worms... How about other high risk activities? Skydiving? BASE jumping? Riding WITH a helmet??
I have no answer for that. Not meaning to start a flame war here, just speakin' my mind..
I purposefully didn't mention 'societal costs,' how much caring for a severely injured rider totals to for the cost of healthcare. There are people in government and the business of healthcare administration who do consider these things. Besides the cost of coverage of medical bills, there is the loss of income to the wage earner, the effects economically on the family involved, from not being able to afford to pay rent or a mortgage, buy food, pay utilities, go to college for the offspring of the injured, etc.
When we are told to post a cash bond to do hazardous things in anticipation of possible monetary outlays, we all are affected if that activity is one we wish to do. Try to buy life insurance when you scuba dive, smoke, do mountain climbing, skydiving, or ride a motorcycle, and compare rates with someone who does none of these things. Actuarials will provide the data to set your rates.
Because I've made use of the protection of a helmet in different activities I will continue to use one, even though I can ride a motorcycle without one in the state of Florida.
Your criticism of 'know your six' to be a bad analogy, how so? If you don't know where your enemy is the results can be catastrophic, same for being aware of an erratically-behaving motor vehicle operator who puts you in danger, and is proximal to you and your loved ones.
I was in my truck on I-95 in Miami FL, and it was daylight. I had been scanning my mirrors as is my habit, and noticed a white car changing lanes frequently behind me. They were running faster than surrounding traffic and never signalled lane changes. I figured it to be a young male driver with an aggressive behavior.
Eventually the driver came up behind me, changed lanes to my right, and accellerated, approaching my right side. Now I was looking to my left to see where traffic was, if I needed to perform an evasive maneuver, and how close the traffic was behind me, if I had to brake hard. As we proceeded on the interstate, I was surprised to see the driver was a very young female, clutching a cellphone in her right hand, yakking away, and steering w/the other hand. Suddenly she made an attempted lane change into my lane, but she didn't turn her head to see if there was anyone there. She just started across the lane divider stripe.
I have a FIAMM airhorn set, and as I moved to the left to avoid her (because of situational awareness, I knew I had the room) I sounded the horn, constantly. The female finally became aware of my location, and tried to return to her lane. Unfortunately, she jerked the wheel too-hard, and the car skidded to the right as she began to fall behind me on the interstate. Now she over-corrected, trying to regain her lane and control of the car, by turning to the left, and the car snapped sideways pointed to the left, and shot across several lanes behind my truck, and into the divided highway center median, which she struck. When I looked into my rear view mirrors, all I saw was a big cloud of dust, and cars scattering to avoid her. My wife called 911, and I said a prayer of thanks for avoiding a reckless driver. The whole attempted lane change and accident took maybe four seconds.
When I ride, I constantly evaluate my position in traffic, and will change lanes or use the dynamic capabilities of my ride to avoid possible confrontations. The analogy of being aware of what occurs around you is pertinent whether you're in flight, riding a motorcycle, driving a car, or using an ATM. The alert person is less likely to be a victim or an unfortunate statistic.
On this weekend, and for every weekend, and the days in between, please inform your father I thank him for his time protecting our freedoms. I have a couple of cousins who are graduates of CO Springs and Annapolis, and I pray for their safety and that of all our uniformed services.
When we are told to post a cash bond to do hazardous things in anticipation of possible monetary outlays, we all are affected if that activity is one we wish to do. Try to buy life insurance when you scuba dive, smoke, do mountain climbing, skydiving, or ride a motorcycle, and compare rates with someone who does none of these things. Actuarials will provide the data to set your rates.
Because I've made use of the protection of a helmet in different activities I will continue to use one, even though I can ride a motorcycle without one in the state of Florida.
Your criticism of 'know your six' to be a bad analogy, how so? If you don't know where your enemy is the results can be catastrophic, same for being aware of an erratically-behaving motor vehicle operator who puts you in danger, and is proximal to you and your loved ones.
I was in my truck on I-95 in Miami FL, and it was daylight. I had been scanning my mirrors as is my habit, and noticed a white car changing lanes frequently behind me. They were running faster than surrounding traffic and never signalled lane changes. I figured it to be a young male driver with an aggressive behavior.
Eventually the driver came up behind me, changed lanes to my right, and accellerated, approaching my right side. Now I was looking to my left to see where traffic was, if I needed to perform an evasive maneuver, and how close the traffic was behind me, if I had to brake hard. As we proceeded on the interstate, I was surprised to see the driver was a very young female, clutching a cellphone in her right hand, yakking away, and steering w/the other hand. Suddenly she made an attempted lane change into my lane, but she didn't turn her head to see if there was anyone there. She just started across the lane divider stripe.
I have a FIAMM airhorn set, and as I moved to the left to avoid her (because of situational awareness, I knew I had the room) I sounded the horn, constantly. The female finally became aware of my location, and tried to return to her lane. Unfortunately, she jerked the wheel too-hard, and the car skidded to the right as she began to fall behind me on the interstate. Now she over-corrected, trying to regain her lane and control of the car, by turning to the left, and the car snapped sideways pointed to the left, and shot across several lanes behind my truck, and into the divided highway center median, which she struck. When I looked into my rear view mirrors, all I saw was a big cloud of dust, and cars scattering to avoid her. My wife called 911, and I said a prayer of thanks for avoiding a reckless driver. The whole attempted lane change and accident took maybe four seconds.
When I ride, I constantly evaluate my position in traffic, and will change lanes or use the dynamic capabilities of my ride to avoid possible confrontations. The analogy of being aware of what occurs around you is pertinent whether you're in flight, riding a motorcycle, driving a car, or using an ATM. The alert person is less likely to be a victim or an unfortunate statistic.
On this weekend, and for every weekend, and the days in between, please inform your father I thank him for his time protecting our freedoms. I have a couple of cousins who are graduates of CO Springs and Annapolis, and I pray for their safety and that of all our uniformed services.
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