Dreaded "0" ring facts

[mikemax04]

I, like many others, would like to put this to rest once and for all. Speculation, hear-say and 21 years of hearing this supposedly problem over and over, it's time to deal with the facts and reality.

I'll start out by saying there never was or is an oiling problem, period. I want to be proven wrong so please join in and contribute your knowledge.

:confused2: :confused2: :confused2: :confused2: :confused2:

 

[Robbarrie]

Don't know anyone personally, but I have read a bit on the topic. I hope it never happens to me ! If there is such a problem, or ever was. We need to talk or debate about it. As I said, I read there were some suspected attributes to the cause it to happen which I won't list right now. At one time many were buying the Kawi's O ring and replacing the Yami one. Saying that it was a better fit. In a few cases they posted pics of the O ring being pinched out and stated that it could have been a total failure if they hadn't of caught it in time. This goes back a few years, when I used to follow a forum and never had a Max but I knew someday I would get one and I wanted to learn as much as I could before I bought one. Were talking 5-10 years ago. I remember one guy used to have a web site with angel-fire and it was a great site I might add. The link doesn't work anymore and I was sad to see it go.

Anyway, post your thoughts.....what do think may / could cause something like this to happen if at all.

thick oil, cold start and too heavy on the throttle when cold, bad o rings, sludge build up, oil filtering - too efficient causing too much pressure, spin ons vrs. OEM filters, to mention a few.

I remember many guys would post - worried about the oil light flicker, thinking that it was going to happen to them at any time. I think its more of a panic thing than anything else. However, if your jumping on the throttle before the bike has a chance to warm up properly - you may be asking for something like that to happen. Common sense should tell ya that. Prevention is the best fix, not rebuilding your engine. Hey, throw it gear and ride like you stole it. It's not my bike.....thats my 2 cents. :smileystooges:

 

[shawn kloker]

Last spring I mechanics wire tied mine up to a cross member above it and twisted it tight with pliers.Tucked it all in real nice.This fall it was still right where I left it.Mine had bulged out even with a new oring from the rebuild a year before that.This is also after many drag runs and plenty of street fighting.I am not worried about it coming out ever again.Cheap fix too.

 

[one2dmax]

Well, for most riders the o-ring even bulged out will not be a problem. But for those few who push the bike to its design limits there is an issue with the oil valving system and oiling to the crankshaft.

We have started drilling oiling holes in the crankshaft thrust area in the block to improve bearing life there. We also have special gears for the oil pump to allow for 25% more oil volume with increased bypass pressure for a bit more oil pressure throughout the entire rpm range. Now, you can actually plug off the bypass completely but that requires a 20 minute warm up to get the oil thinned otherwise it will blow the filter off.

Some of our oil tubing has extra bolt tabs welded onto it to keep the valving system from allowing the o-ring to pop out. If you examine the way they have set the system up the oil is pressurized then flowed into the filter, from there it travels back through the tubing past the "O-ring" to be distributed to the engine. Anytime the o-ring is displaced there is some of the intended pressure not getting to where it needs to be. Of course most don't run thier engines to the limits where it becomes critical.

Virtually EVERY engine we have taken apart with issues like spun bearings or even trans issues has had the o-ring displaced. In fact only one so far was in place. Of course these are mostly engines that see heavier duty useage then the average rider subjects them to so there will be more issues anyway.

 

[khuenefeldt]

What O ring are you all talking about? :confused2:

 

[clintard]

If you havnt heard of the Dreaded O-Ring problem, have a look here:

http://www.angelfire.com/ia/z/vmaxoilring.htm




Clint

 

[shawn kloker]

Holy Shit! Someone couldn't sleep at night.I also ripped the anti-foaming cup out of there.

 

[Buster Hymen]

Now THAT was a technical article! :thumbs up:

 

[mikemax04]

I've seen and read quite a few articles on this subject and everybody has a cow because the ring bulges in one place. I've yet to see any real proof of this actually causing a spun rod or seized motor. Bet most Max bikes have this bulging ring and the owner isn't even aware of it and rides the hell out of it, year after year. The Max was built to be a dragster and will take that kind of punishment.

Yamaha produced this bike every year for the last 21 and could have very easily altered this so called problem if they really thought it was one. It just doesn't make any sense for them to put their reputation on the line for a nickle and dime fix. Sure there are seized engines out there in one form or another, but changing oil and forgetting to refill or not checking the oil level and running it low will definitely seize a motor.

This isn't a matter of who's right and who's wrong, it's a matter of not having any convincing evidence that this is really a problem. There are tens of thousands of Maxes out there, so where are all the dead bodies, so to speak?

 

[khuenefeldt]

:clapping: Mike has a point. If it was an issue Yamaha would have fixed this a long time ago. Sounds like many have ran their bikes thousands and thousands of miles w/o a problem..and their vmax is still ticking :thumbs up:

 

[one2dmax]

I am here to tell you that 90+ % of the Vmax (or any other rider) out there do not push their machine to its limits.

The vmax engine will not withstand constant abuse like an inline 4 bike will and constant dragstrip use will have you looking for another engine.

try running your engine at 11,300 rpms for 25+ laps in a mini-sprint chassis and you WILL find the weak links. The oiling issues are the first thing you will find.

Yamaha will not make changes to the bike that most owners will never have an issue with. Don't go out and make the changes or do anything because you have heard of the problem. BUT, if you ride the bike to the extreme level I and a few others do I suggest you do some work to it.

There are hardly 10's of thousands of these bikes out there. There are a few and counting the Ventures and Royal Stars there is a much larger number.

Just because they haven't changed the design doesn't mean they don't know there is a weak link. The trans was changed in 85/86 because the issue was much broader. The engine cases were even changed and not just to add the spin on filter. There is considerably more webbing internally in 96 and newer cases which no one sees but was done for one reason or another,

Sean

 

[clintard]

I wonder,

If yamaha knew there is an oiling problem and didnt fix it for 20 years, could it be because of how much money it would cost them in recalls? If theres an oiling problem that could possibly lock the motor up and cause a crash id imagine they would have a recall and the stealers would be making a killing?

 

[Robbarrie]

As I have said before, Yamaha Japan has standards - ( didn't want to refer them as Japs ) but I guess I just did. I work for them in the auto industry, they test and test and If something passes the test - it is a pass. They must have felt that the tech and design was sufficient. It will and has passed for the masses for the most and for better than 20 years. They did a great job. They were building a bike not the fuk'n space shuttle. We all remember what happened there with a O ring.

If you treat your bike with respect in riding and maintenance this should never happen and I bet it never has with these kind of owners. I'm not saying never let 'r rip but abuse is abuse and that will differ from owner to owner.

That was IOWAS site I was talking about in my earlier post! For some reason it wasn't working for me.....:confused2:

 

[mikemax04]

I am here to tell you that 90+ % of the Vmax (or any other rider) out there do not push their machine to its limits.

The vmax engine will not withstand constant abuse like an inline 4 bike will and constant dragstrip use will have you looking for another engine.

try running your engine at 11,300 rpms for 25+ laps in a mini-sprint chassis and you WILL find the weak links. The oiling issues are the first thing you will find.

Yamaha will not make changes to the bike that most owners will never have an issue with. Don't go out and make the changes or do anything because you have heard of the problem. BUT, if you ride the bike to the extreme level I and a few others do I suggest you do some work to it.

There are hardly 10's of thousands of these bikes out there. There are a few and counting the Ventures and Royal Stars there is a much larger number.

Just because they haven't changed the design doesn't mean they don't know there is a weak link. The trans was changed in 85/86 because the issue was much broader. The engine cases were even changed and not just to add the spin on filter. There is considerably more webbing internally in 96 and newer cases which no one sees but was done for one reason or another,

Sean

I respect your opinion Sean and you're one of the very few Yahoo wrenchers that deals with his experience and not fears. Any engine that is placed in such a position over and above for which it was intended, will fail. High RPM's will shorten any engine's life span and the Max has a redline of 9.5, after that , it's not only abuse but a deliberate act of destruction. What gain can be obtained at running the Max engine at 11300? The power band and torque have long given up so what's the sense in it?

People that do burnouts for kicks are having fun without realizing the wear they are subjecting their Max to. Running high revolutions without hardly any load is also detrimental to the engine just like running without an air filter, which some do. Anything can be destroyed if taken beyond it's intended use. Most bike riders are users and not abusers and for the masses, the Max is a fine piece of work just like it comes from the factory. There are several in the VMOA that have this unfounded need to instill fear in all that own this bike. It can scare the sh-t out of those that are non mechanical, wondering when their motor will seize. It's a little like hollering FIRE in an auditorium where there is no fire.

 

[khuenefeldt]

Just my 2 cents...


If yamaha figured that vmax owners shouldn't run their bikes in the high rpms...why would they have a vboost valve that starts to open at 6K and is fully open at 8K rpms? The bike is advertised as a drag bike...not a scooter

I agree with Mike. Riding a vmax @ 11.5K rpms for 25 laps is stupid and deliberate abuse to the machine. This would be classified as running the machine beyond it's intended use & limitations. :cheers:

 

[maleko89]

Remember, the Vmax engine is basically a Venture engine....which is a touring engine that wasn't built to even go past 8500 rpms.

 

[khuenefeldt]

http://en.allexperts.com/e/y/ya/yamaha_vmax.htm

 

[one2dmax]

Actually, they make great power when setup correctly and can live just fine at rpm's over 11,000 when the weak links are taken care of.

I have said it once and here it is again, for 90% of most riders out there don't worry about it as even partial pressure loss from a blown o-ring will still allow for enough lubrication for your riding.

If you like to race the bike regularly and like to ride very aggressively then you may want to consider inspecting and or upgrading the o-ring. A very good warm up will help things considerably since the oil thins up enough to go where it is supposed to.

When you build an engine for maximup performance you also maximize everything in the engine possible to get maximum life. When we can get 150HP out of a 1200cc engine that others need 1500cc's to do that then you know there is more then a simple bore job going on.

By the way, If Yamaha engineers are so infaliable then why did they LOWER the factory redline. It is not 9500 rpm anymore and has not been for a few years. It is only 9000 now. 500 may not seem like much but it is quite a bit when they wait nearly 20 years to change it. There is another issue that many don't realize with these engines too and that is the pin end on the rod tends to wear out and add to the already noisy engine. Again, most will never have an issue with it but every single engine we have opened up have had the small end out of tolerance for out of round. This includes so called babied engines with less then 1000 miles on them. Probably 95% of most will never have an issue with them either even though they are looser then they are supposed to be. Of course there are fixes for that too but much more involved then the o-ring swap.

Sean Morley

 

[mikemax04]

I think partly we are talking apples and watermelons. At least 97% of Max owners never go into the engine itself. Look at the Harley Destroyer at $30+K. It's just for racing on the strip and life expectancy is one season. Expensive 9 second runs. Wonder what a rebuild runs or do you just get a new one? All this dreaded "0" ring issue, coming mainly from some VMOA members that swear up and down that a stock Max will bite the big one, sooner or later. Bullshit!

If we look at the reputation of the Yamaha engineers over the years, they might not be perfect but just look at their products. It's one of the biggest motorcycle companies in the world and they didn't get there by having stupid engineers or inferior products. When a person buys a bike, any bike, and starts messing with it, especially the engine, all bets are off and any problems encountered are directly caused by said messer-upper (that a word?:whistlin: ).

The bike was originally built for street drag racing and to be the fastest for that time. People that take it to the strip weekly and grind the guts out of it can expect to do a lot of wrenching. Kicking some ass on the streets occasionally, is all within the manufacturer's expectations and will hold up for a long time.

One of our members some time ago said that he beat the hell out of his Max for the first 45K miles and now takes it a bit easier on the old girl, but it still runs strong. If you crank it to 9K or 9.5K, it's still a long way from 11+K. Look at the dino runs and see where it runs out of gas. Why go beyond those RPM's. Sure you can soup it up to get more power and more R's, but it's life will be shortened and NOT by what the factory goofed on. Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[Robbarrie]

Your right Mike, and I don't think anyone will strongly disagree. However you still must consider that all the max's ever made are not made exactly the same. In the manufacturing process, they get different steel coils, different blocks, different pistons, different employees making the parts and putting the bike together. For a company like Yamaha to be successfully in the industry they have to be quality intensive. The bike is well engineered and if it wasn't they would have made big changes or stopped producing the max and re engineer and start over with another model all together.

If Ford, Honda, Chevy, Dodge could build every car exactly the same with every single thing, parts, machines to build the cars and the manpower that were perfect on the job every single day - I'm 100% POSITIVE they would. There would be no need for competition because everyone would soon know what the best car to buy.

I know you feel very strongly about the quality of a Max and if it says Yamaha on it, it must be great. Every manufacturer has it's problems. Yamaha is no exception. They don't warranty the bike for life, just long enough to ensure if you bought a good one and if something does goes kaboom - your covered. If nothing happens and your bike run great for over that year. Yamaha has done their job as a company and done it well. To stand the test of time, that it has, there is allot to say about the Vmax model. If you ask the millions of people who have ever bought one from Yamaha and still have it, if they would buy another one, I'd bet 99% of them wouldn't hesitate.

They certainly wouldn't have introduced a new Vmax model.