exhaust design question

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so kerker collects cylinder 1 and 2 together and 3 and 4 together, hmf and ufo collect 1 and 4 together and 2 and 3 together, my question is can you colect the rear 1 and 3 together and the front 2 and 4 together on v-max? seems like thats how honda, ducati and aprilia do their v4's
 
so kerker collects cylinder 1 and 2 together and 3 and 4 together, hmf and ufo collect 1 and 4 together and 2 and 3 together, my question is can you colect the rear 1 and 3 together and the front 2 and 4 together on v-max? seems like thats how honda, ducati and aprilia do their v4's

I think that the degress of rotation between cylinder firing (All cylinders on the Vmax aren't firing the same degrees apart, that's why Vmaxes and Harleys have such nasty idles) and the order of cylinder firing is what matters most in regards to proper exhaust scavenging.

Different V4's don't all have the same firing pattern, degrees between, crankshaft configuration, and order of cylinder firing.
I've even heard the Ventures are different too but only cause of how the cams are degreed in, TDC compression one cylinder 1, used to set up the rear cams, and the degrees you rotate the motor to time in the front cams isn't the same for the two motors or so I was told by Damon F.
You can actually time the Vmax cams the same as the venture and it'll run but not well past 6000rpms. I think the only reason this works is that it's a waste spark system and fires at TDC on both compression and exhaust.

Made me wonder if the ventures could be re-timed like the Vmax for "free" horsepower?

The manual has chart somewhere in there that shows all the above, where each cylinder is in it's four stroke cycle in degrees compared to the others.
I've glanced at it a few times but never really tried to understand it.

Even knowing all that I'm not sure what the proper order of scavenging would be since rpm's and speed of gas flow etc would all come into play. But essentially the goal is for the cylinder that just fired exhaust gases should help to "suck" the gases out of the cylinder that came just before that one??
I think...

I think Marks also does 1 & 2 together and 3 & 4 together, along with the crossover after the two colection points. That was on the older systems he's built. I've heard he'll build anything you ask for tho'
 
well i live a few minutes from hmf and they will make me anything also, i ask them why they connect 1 and 4 and 2 and 3? he said because of the firing order, but like you just said marks dont do it like that. so wtf?
 
well i live a few minutes from hmf and they will make me anything also, i ask them why they connect 1 and 4 and 2 and 3? he said because of the firing order, but like you just said marks dont do it like that. so wtf?

Here's chart.

I think there's an error below the chart where it states the firing sequence.
It says it 1-3-4-2

The chart looks like 1-3--2-4, unless I'm an idiot and don't understand the chart. which is possible.

This could be verfied when doing valve clearances by turning the engine and observing TDC's and Exhaust and Intake valve config at that time. TDC with both valves closed being the TDC for firing that cyclinder

Whether that means 1-3, and 2-4 should go together isn't that clear tho'
Couldn't it also have something to do with individual cylinder pipe lengths, and the time for the different cyliniders gases to travel to the collection point and "assist" in scavenging.......could it turn out that firing order of cylinders isn't the same sequence as the cylinders gases arrival at the collection point due to the front pipes being longer?:ummm:

I had a set of Herb Adams 180 degree headers on my old '70 Trans Am. Talk about a spaghetti bowl, the cylinders came together in firing order without regards to which side of the engine they came from. Hell to fit and shit for ground clearance, took me about two months to destroy them.

You tube clip is an example of how different that ends up sounding, nothing like an American V8 usually sounds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSZTbR6C6Lw
 

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Just in case you don't know....

When the exhaust valve opens the gasses exit at high pressure and speed. As the valve shuts there is a drop in pressure behind the high pressure pulse. This happens every cycle of the exhaust valve.

When the high pressure pulse exits the exhaust it sends a negative pressure wave back down the pipe.

In an ideal world this negative pressure wave will arrive at the exhaust valve just as it is starting to open and thus help suck out the gasses.

The same happens when the negative wave exits except that it sends back a positive wave.

In our rose tinted world, our first negative return wave would also have sucked out some of the fresh mixture and the positive wave would push it back into the cylinder just before the valve shuts.

When this happens will be decided by the length and diameter of the primary pipes and the secondaries (where the two pipes have been joined).

The idea behind the Siamese pipes is to try and take advantage of this effect.

The is one teeny little problem - this 'ideal' effect will happen over a very limited rev range. Bugger!

Back in our rose tinted world, we would have a system that would be able to change the diameter and length of the tubes so that the 'ram' effect could happen throughout the rev range.

So far all we have is the EXUP valve and the like.

For any (tube) benders out there, you may like to play around with this calculator and construct your own system.

I have no idea how much you gain or loose with one system or another and if Mark's is better than Kerker, Walker or Fred Bloggs' pipes.

What you gain on the roundabouts with one system will probably be lost on the swings with another.

Bottom line is: would you notice the loss or gain of a few GG's somewhere within the rev range?

No, neither would I.
 
i thought maybe i could just blow the 2 front cylinders out one side and the rears out the other, i just wanna change the sound. termignoni makes a system that way for the ducati desmosedici v4 and it sounds sick. but if it cant be done on a vmax? then maybe i'll just do 4 into 1 like hindle.
 
i thought maybe i could just blow the 2 front cylinders out one side and the rears out the other, i just wanna change the sound. termignoni makes a system that way for the ducati desmosedici v4 and it sounds sick. but if it cant be done on a vmax? then maybe i'll just do 4 into 1 like hindle.

If you are building your own, take a look at these guys for parts:

http://www.coneeng.com/

-Mark-
 
You can put them out anyway you want but the power won't necessarily be what you could have had.
 
well i have hmf 4 into 2 now, hmf is just up the street from me and they can make me anything i want, im just trying to come up with something differant
 
well i have hmf 4 into 2 now, hmf is just up the street from me and they can make me anything i want, im just trying to come up with something differant

That's sweet, you are lucky. It took me several months going back and forth with Hindle in Canada to get what I wanted for my Gen 2. Lot's of fitting, sending photos, making phone calls, waiting...etc. Very slow and frustrating process.
 
yeah cool guys at hmf, they did me a one off full system for my kawasaki, just dropped it off and less than a week later i had it back. jon cornell is just up the street from me too. did hindle build you a 4 into 1?
 
yeah cool guys at hmf, they did me a one off full system for my kawasaki, just dropped it off and less than a week later i had it back. jon cornell is just up the street from me too. did hindle build you a 4 into 1?

No...they already had a 4-2-1 that they make that is sold through Brocks. I wanted a 4-2 so mine was the first one that they built and sold.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wbl9Hye4gnM
 
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