Gen 2 Engine Development begins

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one2dmax

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The gen 2 trans is far more durable then the gen 1's. AND, they almost never "break" the dogs or teeth. They usually are rounded off at the leading edges. We improve this by a better indexing on the machining and by increasing the slot lengths so that there is more "time" to get it into gear during the shift. This does increase drivetrain "slop" but well worth the change.
 

Lunatic

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We are talking about gen 2 development here.
I havent heard of a 2nd gear issue like the common 2nd gear poblem with the gen 1.
 

Mikhail.F

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We are talking about gen 2 development here.
I havent heard of a 2nd gear issue like the common 2nd gear poblem with the gen 1.
Yes, we are talking about the second generation. if drive like a maniac, then on the second generation it also breaks first and second gears.
 

02GF74

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Looks like the few weeks have turned into 5 months, I'm curious as to how it going.
 

mngforce

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Looks like the few weeks have turned into 5 months, I'm curious as to how it going.
Yeah, we got flooded with roadrace work. The racing season is now over so we hope to be pulling this out of the corner. The biggest issue is money, to be honest. I was doing this as a fun project because I love the V-Max. If I had a commitment for pistons, cams, headwork, etc. the job would move much faster. Are there any serious guys interested in the products I will be designing?
 

OKCVmax

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Yeah, we got flooded with roadrace work. The racing season is now over so we hope to be pulling this out of the corner. The biggest issue is money, to be honest. I was doing this as a fun project because I love the V-Max. If I had a commitment for pistons, cams, headwork, etc. the job would move much faster. Are there any serious guys interested in the products I will be designing?
Do you have am estimate on parts cost for something like what you're doing? That might help me and others judge whether it's even in the realm of possibility or not
 

mngforce

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Do you have am estimate on parts cost for something like what you're doing? That might help me and others judge whether it's even in the realm of possibility or not
An engine like what I want to build to achieve 300hp N/A will be in the realm of $15k. A lot of "moving" parts. A ton of R&D, etc. Parts and outside services (boring, plating, crank work, cams, etc.) for that would be $8k-$10k of that. I'm currently doing a V-Rod in the same manner. It's $18k.

I hope that didn't give everyone a coronary. I know it's not cheap. But, you guys have seen the level of detail we go through to build an engine at this level.

-Mike
 

SpareHimps

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An engine like what I want to build to achieve 300hp N/A will be in the realm of $15k. A lot of "moving" parts. A ton of R&D, etc. Parts and outside services (boring, plating, crank work, cams, etc.) for that would be $8k-$10k of that. I'm currently doing a V-Rod in the same manner. It's $18k.

I hope that didn't give everyone a coronary. I know it's not cheap. But, you guys have seen the level of detail we go through to build an engine at this level.

-Mike
It's a big number but it's also a reasonable number. Adding 100hp is no small feat. Combine that with no new vmax on the horizon and you have a pretty reasonable price point.
 

mngforce

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It's a big number but it's also a reasonable number. Adding 100hp is no small feat. Combine that with no new vmax on the horizon and you have a pretty reasonable price point.
Well, I appreciate that you can understand that logic. That's exactly how I see it.
 

mngforce

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It's a big number but it's also a reasonable number. Adding 100hp is no small feat. Combine that with no new vmax on the horizon and you have a pretty reasonable price point.
Curious...how many people are willing to spend that? It will help me determine where in the line of engines I have I will place it.
 

SpareHimps

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Curious...how many people are willing to spend that? It will help me determine where in the line of engines I have I will place it.
I think your real test would be delivering proof of concept on the 300hp engine. I understand the business side of expense and priorities but, it's pretty early in the development cycle to start pre selling as well. All that said, I'd be willing to pay for the final product if it's as promised.
 

mngforce

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I would have to agree that, for the V-Max crowd I’m new. But, to the Roadracing crowd, I’ve been around for 35 years. The engines I build are all routinely in the 175-225+hp/l range and are in the 30-50% power bump range. The V-Max engine I am proposing is around 1800cc. Even at the lower end of my power to capacity range of 175hp/l that’s 315hp. I also use engine simulation software like PipeMax, Engine Expert and Dynomation. I can’t recall the actual estimates. But all 3 were right in that 300hp range.

Using all that, I just built a Ninja400 that made 70hp. That 175hp/l. I’ve also spent years perfecting my process to make a 93hp 400cc V4. That’s 232hp/l
You can see the painstaking development here.

But, yes, I do get your point. In order for people to start cutting checks, they need to know I’m not blowing sunshine up their kazoos. That’s only going to happen with money I currently don’t have. So, I need “investors”.
 

Bertrand

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I totally agree with "SpareHimps". I run myself for twelve years and a lot of money. for a much more efficient Vmax. How much time (approximately) do you need for the development of such a kit?
 

mngforce

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I totally agree with "SpareHimps". I run myself for twelve years and a lot of money. for a much more efficient Vmax. How much time (approximately) do you need for the development of such a kit?
I guess I replied to him off-line in a “conversation”. 20 to 30 weeks is our standard development time. Most of that time is waiting for pistons to be made after we spec them out. The rest is waiting for valves and cams to be made after spec’ing them out.

There’s a tremendous amount of time that goes into the valve shape testing and valve job testing on the flow bench. Usually 2 weeks of solid 8hr days standing at the bench, designing new shapes based on previous flow runs, printing those shapes, rinse and repeat.

Cams can’t be designed until all the flow work is done. So, once we are ready to design a cam, that’s usually another week. Once we have the cam and valve data, we design a Ti spring retainer, get the valve train projected weights, and start looking for a spring. Once we get a spring, we can finalize the retainer design and get that manufactured.

It’s quite the process as you can see. So, the sooner we start, the sooner we can get done.
 

Bertrand

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I guess I replied to him off-line in a “conversation”. 20 to 30 weeks is our standard development time. Most of that time is waiting for pistons to be made after we spec them out. The rest is waiting for valves and cams to be made after spec’ing them out.

There’s a tremendous amount of time that goes into the valve shape testing and valve job testing on the flow bench. Usually 2 weeks of solid 8hr days standing at the bench, designing new shapes based on previous flow runs, printing those shapes, rinse and repeat.

Cams can’t be designed until all the flow work is done. So, once we are ready to design a cam, that’s usually another week. Once we have the cam and valve data, we design a Ti spring retainer, get the valve train projected weights, and start looking for a spring. Once we get a spring, we can finalize the retainer design and get that manufactured.

It’s quite the process as you can see. So, the sooner we start, the sooner we can get done.
Thank you for your quick reply.
I suppose, that the modifications of the A.A.C and the cylinder heads are done on our own parts
. I understand that you are considering a slight increase in displacement: 1800cc.
From 1679cc you need 3mm more bore for 1790cc. I have even opened this engine several times over the past twelve years, and I don't think there is enough material for rigidity.
Increasing the stroke may be good for the couple. I think that for the Vmax, favoring a large torque at a rotation speed that is not too fast will be a good option.
You are the expert (I am only an amateur) when do you think?
 

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