Inherited Stage 1 Needles with Stock exhaust

[Threebeards]

Hi all
My 88 is running just fine, I've rebuilt and repainted it, and I'm down to final tweaks now. I was having low end issues but I discovered the PAJ2 were the non stock sizes, that's all taken care of. Which also took me from 25 to 30MPG, still low of course so I've been doing everything suggested here and eventually concluded maybe the Needles were also not stock as whoever had it before me may have had a non stock exhaust to match the PAJ2, also the A/F screws did nothing until the bottom half turn.
So what I have is stock exhaust stock Carbs EXCEPT for what looks like Stage 1 Needles, with the clip on the 3rd groove out of 5 (no shims)
will I be wasting my time moving the clip towards the blunt end to increase MPG?
or should I just buy the Stock needles?
Or has this not cropped up, and I'll post my findings?
Cheers for now
Threebeards.

 

[davesax36]

I'd talk to Sean (One2dmax) or dannymax and see if you can get some stock needles. That's the fastest fix.

 

[Threebeards]

Thanks Davesax
I will do that.
Though I'm not only after a "fix" I would appreciate the chance to educate myself in this matter, But I wouldn't waste time and effort if anybody out there knew already it was fruitless.
Thanks for the link to the map by the way That's a fantastic idea!

 

[blaxmax]

You can make the needles you have work to your advantage as they are tapered in a way the stock are not.
I have stock exhaust and i put stock canadian needles that can adjust and making them lift quicker allows for a quicker response throughout midrange.They do have the same taper as stock needles so the only advantage i get is lifting quicker for quicker response. You have a different taper so you Top end is my main jet and mine is 157.5.- i am in the mojave below sea level though.
I used to live in vegas and at 2600 ft altitude you are better off with a smaller than stock main. I would keep the needles you have and work with them to your advantage. Use your carb sync tool to get your a/f mixture screws set as high as you can get them. Keep turning them out until they reach their highest vacuum and afterwards sync the carbs-- that will help your bottom end.The taper works the transition between the midrange and full throttle/main jet (¾ throttle position). The taper is the least sensitive function of the needle. Changes in the taper have very mild subtle changes in the jetting. The taper also affects the main jet size your carburetor requires. A leaner needle taper will use a richer main jet than a comparable engine/carburetor combo with a richer needle taper.

 

[Threebeards]

Thanks Blaxmax,
Hugely Informative, I've not yet tried adjusting the A/F with my Carbtune attached, and I shall.
Just turning A/F and judging by ear I noticed no change whatsoever until the last 0.5 or even 0.25 of a turn remaining until fully seated, I'm at work until Wednesday but will try with the gauges upon return. From the information given are you able to form an opinion on whether or not I should expect to move the clip?

 

[DMAN999]

Actually if you read through some more threads here you find that the Stage 1 Needles are really NOT worth using and will cause your Max to run too rich.
The Canadian and Stock Needles are much less aggressively shaped.
I can't even guess at how many guys here have tried them Only to find that they don't work well and going back to Stock needles got their Max running like it should again.

If you are going to keep the stage 1 Needles, I'd suggest you try the clip on the notch closest to the blunt end.

 

[sdt354]

Actually if you read through some more threads here you find that the Stage 1 Needles are really NOT worth using and will cause your Max to run too rich.
The Canadian and Stock Needles are much less aggressively shaped.
I can't even guess at how many guys here have tried them Only to find that they don't work well and going back to Stock needles got their Max running like it should again.

If you are going to keep the stage 1 Needles, I'd suggest you try the clip on the notch closest to the blunt end.

found out.


+1, The stage 1 needles, make decent top end with a good exhaust. But, mileage is bad as you've found. 150 possibly 147 mains and stock needles will be your best bet for decent mileage and performance. Full exhaust is the best first engine mod for all around performance tuning and weight savings.

 

[blaxmax]

Thanks Blaxmax,
Hugely Informative, I've not yet tried adjusting the A/F with my Carbtune attached, and I shall.
Just turning A/F and judging by ear I noticed no change whatsoever until the last 0.5 or even 0.25 of a turn remaining until fully seated, I'm at work until Wednesday but will try with the gauges upon return. From the information given are you able to form an opinion on whether or not I should expect to move the clip?

If low end is your problem it is not your needles and they would not need changing the clip or shim. If it is running ok from mid to top end leave it there.
Low end problems will be a/f mixture screw backing out and if it does not back out enough the pilot jet needs to go up in number.

 

[scuff]

Actually if you read through some more threads here you find that the Stage 1 Needles are really NOT worth using and will cause your Max to run too rich.
The Canadian and Stock Needles are much less aggressively shaped.
I can't even guess at how many guys here have tried them Only to find that they don't work well and going back to Stock needles got their Max running like it should again.

If you are going to keep the stage 1 Needles, I'd suggest you try the clip on the notch closest to the blunt end.

+1 on this, f'ed with mine all last summer still don't like them if I hadn't had to fix my trans this winter they would have been changed already, it's on the list to fix asap, don't bother keeping Stage 1 needles and check your slide springs they prob are not stock either.

 

[Threebeards]

Ok, all useful info guys thanks.
by the way what does +1 mean?
So far the bike is running really well IMHO, although I've not ridden another Vmax as a comparison.
No flat spots whatsoever, solid acceleration throughout the rev range, I'm very happy with the performance speed and acceleration wise.
I was just trying to get to the bottom of the 30MPG mystery to increase my usable range a bit. Of course once I start achieving better MPG, if its at the cost of a LOT of power I'll choose that over the milage, but if it's barely noticeable I'll take the range.
my train of thought was, that if the A/F screws do nothing until the final half turn and all it does is kill that cylinder (this is from ear, I'm going to try Blaxmax method upon getting home) then the needle must be shimmed or aftermarket. which is when i opened it up to find the stage 1's

 

[DMAN999]

The A/F Screws should be some where around 2 to 2-3/4 turns out (from all the way in lightly seated).
They A/F screws affect the entire carb range from Idle to Full Throttle:

 

[Traumahawk]

The needle does NOTHING at idle. It doesnt even start kicking in until 4000 rpm with stock springs....etc.

The A/F screws cover from idle to roughly 4000 rpm.

If the A/F screws dont do anything till the last half turn......how many turns out is that?

 

[blaxmax]

a/f adjustment is mostly used for idle to 1/4 throttle

 

[DMAN999]

You should read this also.

 

[Threebeards]

Traumahawk That would be .5 of a turn out, thanks for seeking clarification, this stuff is easy to get headed in the wrong direction.

 

[blaxmax]

Great advice but let the carb tool do the work if possible.
It is better than the ear.

 

[blaxmax]

I also believe your tapered needles are the major reason for your poor mileage.
Mine are canadian with less of a taper but still needle height adjusters.

 

[scuff]

I'm no expert like some of the guys on here but I can tell you I feel like my bike runs well no sooty exhaust plugs look ok from the seat of the pants it feels strong no hesitation idles well starts well, BUT with all that being said i'm the first one in my group to have my fuel light come on and at the drag strip last year I am/was the slowest guy in my group p.s. +1 means I agree

 

[blaxmax]

Helpful advice
http://www.sudco.com/Carburetor02.html

You can see here that the jet needle is using the majority of the gas.

 

[adambweird]

I had stage 1 needles that came with my bike from the P.O. and i could never get it to not run rich.