Is it just me, or...
- Thread starter Bill Seward
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forestdaledave, I'm sorry to hear about your wife's ongoing health issues. When that type of situation occurs, I'd expect pretty-much everything-else takes a back-seat. I hope that you have some assistance along the way, as that makes it easier to do things that are necessary, like food shopping, getting your vehicle serviced, or whatever else needs to be accomplished. I didn't even mention work, as I suspect you may be retired.
A friend of the shop came-by with a new Kawasaki H1, the streetbike, not the track bike. He had some-sort of a tune done and I think an exhaust, and after a break-in, he got 240 RWHP on the dyno a lot of guys around here use. I'd have to think that with the purchase price, tax, and the mods, he's got $30,000 or close-to it, invested. It has a warranty, though I don't know if a re-flash of the CPU and a different exhaust make that void. I think I'd run it the way it was, stock, until the warranty expired, and then do any mods.
A Hyabusa with a turbo should be able to make that HP, without much additional work to allow it to-live. Of course, you can make something that doubles that figure, or more, but it won't be a good streetbike.
A used Hyabusa and a turbo should be about $10K, leaving you a lot of additional cash to keep earning you interest.
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VEEMAX1998
Well-Known Member
Just had to chime in on ct,briefly..Since they are not engineered for mc of course there will be endless debate.I have 200-55-17 ct on my Stratoliner and have ridden 2 up(over 450lbs) 1 up also,and have seen videos,youtube,which de-bunk the 3 images in this thread..the sidewall on a ct is not rigid,it conforms I.E.,left turn left = left sidewall compresses.So much so that my buddy went to hot in a decreasing radius turn two up he dragged the floorboard then the floorboard mount to avoid a head on,and his ct never did anything but stick like glue! That's enough testament for me..Personally,I wouldn't use them on a edgy bike like max just cruiser or touring..Btw,if someone wants to look into this just search for "riding the darkside", happy trails!
Do you think there's "something to-consider," when multiple manufacturers "just-say, no,'" or is it a tire industry-wide plot to get your money? Let's don our colander thinking-caps and think on this.
If you want-to use a car tire, it's your choice, just-like it's your choice to play Russian roulette, eat fatty foods, smoke (whatever), consume alcohol to excess, especially-before driving or riding; hang-glide, BASE jump, wear a squirrel suit and jump-off a precipice, engage in unprotected sex, or any-other activity which has the potential to harm you, and possibly, others.
Basing your decision to use a part not designed for the use to-which you're subjecting it, after viewing a youtube video is just a bad life's decision. Why would someone want to ignore multiple industries' engineering staffs (that would be at a minimum, the motorcycling industry and the motorcycle and automobile tire industries) because someone with a Go-Pro said, "lookit me! I didn't die! I did-it!" is truly a Darwin Award event.
One of the tactics to overcome the sidewall issues of car tire use on a motorcycle is to run the tire grossly-underinflated, so the designed tire pressure won't allow the sidewalls to function in the fashion to-which they were designed for use on a car. Excess sidewall flexing causes excess heat, and the tire bead is not going to be kept in-place as-well, nonwithstanding the fact the car tire bead isn't designed for the types of radial loads imposed upon it by being mounted to a motorcycle rim. Movement of the tire carcass against the parameters for which it was designed will subject the highly-engineered product to kinetic forces not planned-for in its design and manufacture, but I guess if some homeboy shot a Go-Pro of himself doing it, you bet your life! Because you are doing just-that.
You want to be a "darkside" rider, you should disclose to anyone to-whom you offer a ride pillon that your choice of tire isn't approved-of by either the motorcycle manufacturer nor the tire manufacturer, and let them be fully-informed, and to understand what you have chosen to-do. Think of it being in the same context as, "I just drank six beers, and now I want you to ride home with me on my motorcycle," or "my car has all-four tires showing cord, they're bald, and it just rained, but come accept a ride with me."
There is no reason to explain-away why a practice every motorcycle manufacturer would never admit-to on-record is a safe way to operate their product, is OK to-do; nor would you ever find a car tire manufacturer willing to say, "hey, it's OK to put that car tire onto a motorcycle!"
If you choose-to be that "darkside rider," and someone gets-hurt riding with you, the equipment you chose may be a contributing factor. Why take that chance to save a few dollars? That is a poor value judgement.
If you want-to use a car tire, it's your choice, just-like it's your choice to play Russian roulette, eat fatty foods, smoke (whatever), consume alcohol to excess, especially-before driving or riding; hang-glide, BASE jump, wear a squirrel suit and jump-off a precipice, engage in unprotected sex, or any-other activity which has the potential to harm you, and possibly, others.
Basing your decision to use a part not designed for the use to-which you're subjecting it, after viewing a youtube video is just a bad life's decision. Why would someone want to ignore multiple industries' engineering staffs (that would be at a minimum, the motorcycling industry and the motorcycle and automobile tire industries) because someone with a Go-Pro said, "lookit me! I didn't die! I did-it!" is truly a Darwin Award event.
One of the tactics to overcome the sidewall issues of car tire use on a motorcycle is to run the tire grossly-underinflated, so the designed tire pressure won't allow the sidewalls to function in the fashion to-which they were designed for use on a car. Excess sidewall flexing causes excess heat, and the tire bead is not going to be kept in-place as-well, nonwithstanding the fact the car tire bead isn't designed for the types of radial loads imposed upon it by being mounted to a motorcycle rim. Movement of the tire carcass against the parameters for which it was designed will subject the highly-engineered product to kinetic forces not planned-for in its design and manufacture, but I guess if some homeboy shot a Go-Pro of himself doing it, you bet your life! Because you are doing just-that.
You want to be a "darkside" rider, you should disclose to anyone to-whom you offer a ride pillon that your choice of tire isn't approved-of by either the motorcycle manufacturer nor the tire manufacturer, and let them be fully-informed, and to understand what you have chosen to-do. Think of it being in the same context as, "I just drank six beers, and now I want you to ride home with me on my motorcycle," or "my car has all-four tires showing cord, they're bald, and it just rained, but come accept a ride with me."
There is no reason to explain-away why a practice every motorcycle manufacturer would never admit-to on-record is a safe way to operate their product, is OK to-do; nor would you ever find a car tire manufacturer willing to say, "hey, it's OK to put that car tire onto a motorcycle!"
If you choose-to be that "darkside rider," and someone gets-hurt riding with you, the equipment you chose may be a contributing factor. Why take that chance to save a few dollars? That is a poor value judgement.
thank you are exactly right and the one i have is a 145 55 and it lowered the bike so i wasn't tip toeing and i put another radial on the front with no center tread running down the middle cause our front rims are so narrow it makes it walk in the road .So I put it on the front and all my high speed wandering was gone that was bothering me a lot more than havang to be careful on hard turns on wet pavement but it has been so stable after putting the matching radial on the front it falls into corners now man so much better thanks for the reply to that issue cause my whole reason for posting it was an alternative for a person that couldn't afford the rims and still wanted to feel comfotable and safer than the oem bias stuff just tryin to help thanks again man
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VEEMAX1998
Well-Known Member
VEEMAX1998
Well-Known Member
Of course no dealer would install a ct on a mc.It hasn't got the blessings of their development,engineering,legal dept etc,wouldn't expect them to..Besides,most people can't think out of the box just the thought of it is uncomfortable,and that's ok..And I get it that some guys have to make someone else "wrong" or assanign to prop up their flaccid ego's,and that's o k. This proud car tire rider is riding into the sunset on this topic.Smoke a fattie!
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yea and there was also a posting about the mich tires (radials) that i put up that no one was aware of,that I'm sure in some form don't meet you and all the manuf other than mich approval may you and your bias ply tires go on pleasing the world with your winning pers
The two people who continue to insult and malign me, and their personal attacks, are demonstrating their lack of tolerance for differing views which are solidly-supported by the tire manufacturers and the motorcycle manufacturers. Why is engineering a bad thing? Why do you feel a need to personalize the attack on someone expressing their support for the prevailing engineering research on using something not-designed for your choice of your individual use? If you want-to use a car tire, and you do, that's on you. If something happens because of that behavior, that too, is on-you.
Compare it to using a hot load in a handgun where the frame and construction isn't designed to withstand the pressures generated by the use of the propellant in the hot load. Maybe you are able to use it X number of times, until the metallurgy and design of the gun fails to withstand the loads to-which it's repeatedly been subjected-to by your use of powder beyond the parameters of design the gun manufacturer used. It explodes, maybe you lose your eye(s) because of the shrapnel. Maybe you're lucky-enough to just have to take a trip to the E.R. to have the embedded hot metal removed from your epidermis, and debridement of the charred skin from the flash-burns you sustained. Hopefully, no one else was victim to your catastrophically-failing firearm and your negligent use of it.
Radial tires are designed for a different bead size, the width of the tire and the spread of the carcass on the rim to-which it's mounted. Our rims aren't designed to allow a radial tire to sit properly upon it/them. Squeezing a tire designed for a certain minimum mounted width onto a narrower rim will cause the tire to adopt a profile which causes the surface contact area to be less than the tire engineers designed it to do. It will also cause the construction of the tire to not function as it was designed to, resulting in the plies moving against each other in a fashion for-which they were not designed. This causes excess heat, flexing of the tire carcass in a fashion for-which it wasn't designed, and an inability to function for traction and longevity according to the design parameters of a team of engineers. But hey, if your youtube video you found says "lookit what i did!" and you're OK with that, go for it!
The materials in tires are carefully-determined for durability (that would be wear), performance (stickiness), and cost. In your instance it seems saving a few dollars takes precedence over every other design parameter. We all have values, and yours are obviously on the side of sheckel-saving. When a tire manufacturer tasks its design team with construction of a new tire, they have product goals, and price is one of them. The mass market would be very-small for a $800 single tire, even-if it was superior in roadholding grip to everything-else in the same size, unless it's to be installed on a MotoGP racebike or some-other narrowly-defined use where grip and the ability to last for an entire MotoGP race while still providing predictable handling is the #1 consideration. The friction modifiers and the amount of lampblack included in the design are just one-part of the equation. The carcass construction is another. Tires designed to withstand huge rotational forces like a land-speed record tire (where growth in diameter and longevity during use) are much-different from a road-racing tire where cornering and the ability to provide consistent feel while used over the duration of the race are much-different. Tires are designed so they heat-up to a point where the rubber compounds activate to provide the type of performance designed into-them. If that heat range is exceeded or if it isn't reached, then the compound won't perform at its engineered operational point of use. Similarly, motorcycle manufacturers work with the tire manufacturers to develop tire designs complimentary to their motorcycles. In the "good old days," it was common for bigger-engined motorcycles to run a bias-ply 19" tire with a narrow width (designed for a WM-2 1.85" rim), compared to today's bikes' widths (set-aside the radial construction often used today for the moment). When the 16" tires for mid-1980's sportbikes came-out they steered much-quicker, and tire construction changed from what was used on the old 19" size. Thirty-two years ago, Yamaha released their big sportbikes (FZR750/FZR750R; FZR1000) with radial tires, and tire design in motorcycling entered another age. In some limited instances, manufacturers have even mixed radial and bias-ply tires, Harley-Davidson did that. The same way tire manufacturers warn-against car tires on motorcycles, they also warn-against mixing different designs of tires, i.e., radial and bias-ply, unless the motorcycle manufacturer specifically designed the motorcycle in that fashion. Even-then, differences in design of radial tires means that you need to pay attention to the construction to prevent you from mixing incompatible designs. Some radial tires have an oblique angle between successive layers of cords, while others use a "zero-angle," where the successive layers are at right-angles to each other. This affects the way the tire flexes in-use. Using an oblique-angle radial tire with a "zero-angle" radial tire will make you the very unhappy rider of a motorcycle which has weird and unsafe handling. There's much-more to choosing a particular tire than to base your choice solely upon pricing.
The two champions of car tires on motorcycles aren't going to care about the engineering of motorcycle tires, they have already voted with their pocketbooks that price is their overriding concern. This information is directed to the rider who may be considering trying a car tire on their motorcycle but who hasn't been exposed to information from the motorcycle manufacturer or from the tire manufacturers.
Something that makes me curious, cwkerr007 talks about bygones being bygones, yet reverts to insults, including remarks about my family. As I mentioned, the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. Have you no shame? Do what you say, agree to disagree, and stop your personal assault.
Your report on the mich tires (radials) (sic) you posted-about, I think you aren't aware that mich (radials) (sic) isn't the only manufacturer of 15" radials that will fit onto a 15" motorcycle rim. I submit proof from my personal inventory of new tires (attach.) This tire is designed with an H speed rating, while the VMax was designed to require a V speed rating. The difference is 130 mph vs. 149 mph (H to V ratings). If you don't run your bike over 130 mph, the Bridgestone radial may meet your needs but if you do then out of consideration for your personal safety, use of a V-rated tire will be the tire designed to allow safe operation, closed-course use only, of course. You also need to consider that the Bridgestone 15" tire is designed for a 5 inch rim where the VMax rear rim is much-narrower.
https://www.bridgestone.com/products/motorcycle_tires/products/battlax/th01.html
This will pinch the tire carcass inwards distorting the designed footprint, something that an unsuspecting user should know, hopefully before purchase.
Another consideration about the radial tire is the aspect ratio of radials used in motorcycle tires is a much-lower number than that of the OEM VMax bias-ply tires. What this means is that the measured tire height will be much-less, effectively resulting in a 'lower gear ratio' compared to a stock bias-ply VMax rear tire. How-much of a difference? My measurement of a new Shinko bias-ply tire sized to a VMax rim is 25" where the Bridgestone pictured in the attachment is only 22.5" Effectively, that's a 10% difference in height, meaning your rpm's will be that-much higher, and with a corresponding lowering of your fuel economy and your top-speed. People who use 17" radial tires on aftermarket wheels or modded wheels (which I have supplied to members) are fully-aware of this. As-mentioned, it does lower the stance of the bike, and if you're "vertically-challenged," this may allow being able to put both feet flat on the pavement at a stop. For someone like a petite woman, this may allow them to ride a VMax where in the stock 90-series 150 x 15" tire would have her on her toes at a stop, not a secure feeling when trying to support a 600 lb motorcycle on a crowned roadway, at an intersection where cars and trucks have deposited oil, coolant, transmission fluid, grease, construction debris, hot tar, and whatever-else finds its way onto the roads. Then, add a recent rainfall to make a slippery soup of all of this, and you can understand why for some, lowering the bike via a tire/wheel change is a very practical thing to do.
How-long until the next personal assault? I suspect we won't have long to-wait. The popcorn's popping, now.
Compare it to using a hot load in a handgun where the frame and construction isn't designed to withstand the pressures generated by the use of the propellant in the hot load. Maybe you are able to use it X number of times, until the metallurgy and design of the gun fails to withstand the loads to-which it's repeatedly been subjected-to by your use of powder beyond the parameters of design the gun manufacturer used. It explodes, maybe you lose your eye(s) because of the shrapnel. Maybe you're lucky-enough to just have to take a trip to the E.R. to have the embedded hot metal removed from your epidermis, and debridement of the charred skin from the flash-burns you sustained. Hopefully, no one else was victim to your catastrophically-failing firearm and your negligent use of it.
Radial tires are designed for a different bead size, the width of the tire and the spread of the carcass on the rim to-which it's mounted. Our rims aren't designed to allow a radial tire to sit properly upon it/them. Squeezing a tire designed for a certain minimum mounted width onto a narrower rim will cause the tire to adopt a profile which causes the surface contact area to be less than the tire engineers designed it to do. It will also cause the construction of the tire to not function as it was designed to, resulting in the plies moving against each other in a fashion for-which they were not designed. This causes excess heat, flexing of the tire carcass in a fashion for-which it wasn't designed, and an inability to function for traction and longevity according to the design parameters of a team of engineers. But hey, if your youtube video you found says "lookit what i did!" and you're OK with that, go for it!
The materials in tires are carefully-determined for durability (that would be wear), performance (stickiness), and cost. In your instance it seems saving a few dollars takes precedence over every other design parameter. We all have values, and yours are obviously on the side of sheckel-saving. When a tire manufacturer tasks its design team with construction of a new tire, they have product goals, and price is one of them. The mass market would be very-small for a $800 single tire, even-if it was superior in roadholding grip to everything-else in the same size, unless it's to be installed on a MotoGP racebike or some-other narrowly-defined use where grip and the ability to last for an entire MotoGP race while still providing predictable handling is the #1 consideration. The friction modifiers and the amount of lampblack included in the design are just one-part of the equation. The carcass construction is another. Tires designed to withstand huge rotational forces like a land-speed record tire (where growth in diameter and longevity during use) are much-different from a road-racing tire where cornering and the ability to provide consistent feel while used over the duration of the race are much-different. Tires are designed so they heat-up to a point where the rubber compounds activate to provide the type of performance designed into-them. If that heat range is exceeded or if it isn't reached, then the compound won't perform at its engineered operational point of use. Similarly, motorcycle manufacturers work with the tire manufacturers to develop tire designs complimentary to their motorcycles. In the "good old days," it was common for bigger-engined motorcycles to run a bias-ply 19" tire with a narrow width (designed for a WM-2 1.85" rim), compared to today's bikes' widths (set-aside the radial construction often used today for the moment). When the 16" tires for mid-1980's sportbikes came-out they steered much-quicker, and tire construction changed from what was used on the old 19" size. Thirty-two years ago, Yamaha released their big sportbikes (FZR750/FZR750R; FZR1000) with radial tires, and tire design in motorcycling entered another age. In some limited instances, manufacturers have even mixed radial and bias-ply tires, Harley-Davidson did that. The same way tire manufacturers warn-against car tires on motorcycles, they also warn-against mixing different designs of tires, i.e., radial and bias-ply, unless the motorcycle manufacturer specifically designed the motorcycle in that fashion. Even-then, differences in design of radial tires means that you need to pay attention to the construction to prevent you from mixing incompatible designs. Some radial tires have an oblique angle between successive layers of cords, while others use a "zero-angle," where the successive layers are at right-angles to each other. This affects the way the tire flexes in-use. Using an oblique-angle radial tire with a "zero-angle" radial tire will make you the very unhappy rider of a motorcycle which has weird and unsafe handling. There's much-more to choosing a particular tire than to base your choice solely upon pricing.
The two champions of car tires on motorcycles aren't going to care about the engineering of motorcycle tires, they have already voted with their pocketbooks that price is their overriding concern. This information is directed to the rider who may be considering trying a car tire on their motorcycle but who hasn't been exposed to information from the motorcycle manufacturer or from the tire manufacturers.
Something that makes me curious, cwkerr007 talks about bygones being bygones, yet reverts to insults, including remarks about my family. As I mentioned, the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. Have you no shame? Do what you say, agree to disagree, and stop your personal assault.
Your report on the mich tires (radials) (sic) you posted-about, I think you aren't aware that mich (radials) (sic) isn't the only manufacturer of 15" radials that will fit onto a 15" motorcycle rim. I submit proof from my personal inventory of new tires (attach.) This tire is designed with an H speed rating, while the VMax was designed to require a V speed rating. The difference is 130 mph vs. 149 mph (H to V ratings). If you don't run your bike over 130 mph, the Bridgestone radial may meet your needs but if you do then out of consideration for your personal safety, use of a V-rated tire will be the tire designed to allow safe operation, closed-course use only, of course. You also need to consider that the Bridgestone 15" tire is designed for a 5 inch rim where the VMax rear rim is much-narrower.
https://www.bridgestone.com/products/motorcycle_tires/products/battlax/th01.html
This will pinch the tire carcass inwards distorting the designed footprint, something that an unsuspecting user should know, hopefully before purchase.
Another consideration about the radial tire is the aspect ratio of radials used in motorcycle tires is a much-lower number than that of the OEM VMax bias-ply tires. What this means is that the measured tire height will be much-less, effectively resulting in a 'lower gear ratio' compared to a stock bias-ply VMax rear tire. How-much of a difference? My measurement of a new Shinko bias-ply tire sized to a VMax rim is 25" where the Bridgestone pictured in the attachment is only 22.5" Effectively, that's a 10% difference in height, meaning your rpm's will be that-much higher, and with a corresponding lowering of your fuel economy and your top-speed. People who use 17" radial tires on aftermarket wheels or modded wheels (which I have supplied to members) are fully-aware of this. As-mentioned, it does lower the stance of the bike, and if you're "vertically-challenged," this may allow being able to put both feet flat on the pavement at a stop. For someone like a petite woman, this may allow them to ride a VMax where in the stock 90-series 150 x 15" tire would have her on her toes at a stop, not a secure feeling when trying to support a 600 lb motorcycle on a crowned roadway, at an intersection where cars and trucks have deposited oil, coolant, transmission fluid, grease, construction debris, hot tar, and whatever-else finds its way onto the roads. Then, add a recent rainfall to make a slippery soup of all of this, and you can understand why for some, lowering the bike via a tire/wheel change is a very practical thing to do.
How-long until the next personal assault? I suspect we won't have long to-wait. The popcorn's popping, now.
Attachments
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HyperPete
Well-Known Member
Don't you two have anything better to do than argue on a motorcycle forum? If I want to listen to petty juvenile bullshit I can call my ex-wife.
I stop in from time to time but do not read much & I really hate the change
HyperPete
Well-Known Member
BTW - I agree completely. Running a car tire on a motorcycle is idiotic. A lot of people do it, but a lot of people do heroin, too. I won't do either.
OUT.
- A car tire is not compatible with a motorcycle rim. It may, or may not seat properly.
- A car tire has a foolishly small contact patch when cornering.
- Car tire sidewalls are not designed to be side-loaded. Ask ANYONE in the tire business.
- Car tires look STUPID on motorcycles.
OUT.
I have stripped a ton of these bikes some were scrap some nice riders. I have watched the price of these bikes decline a ton over the last 5 years. Let's face it Yamaha made a ton of them & they are a dime a dozen. If you watch the market like I do you can find them for 2500 bucks or less all the time now. I hate taking them apart sometimes but I also need to make a living & a lot of times they are just worth more in parts & it helps keep other peoples bikes on the road.
sdt354
Well-Known Member
Sorry to hear about Bunny Dave. Prayers her way and for you both.
Bill Seward
Well-Known Member
Prayers sent, Dave. Hang in there, my friend..
Tex85
Well-Known Member
Received the first spam message ever from this forum in my inbox this morning. I see a lot has changed since my last visit, sorry to see Buster sold the site and that unsolicited spam became acceptable. For those wondering where I went, I am still alive and kicking just been living life and devoting all of my spare time to caring for my kids. I am glad to see that many of the familiar faces/uids are still active and contributing to the forum. I wish you all the best and hope everyone has a great holiday season and a Merry Christmas.
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2018
- Messages
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HI everyone. I've cleaned up the arguing and insulting posts. I hope the rest of you can visit and enjoy being here.
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while i app your opinion of me being an idiot and a heroin junkie and stupid i'm sure your right and probably have a couple of grand to spend on a wheel but i don't and with the stock set of tires i was tip toed at the wrong spots and had it walking in the road at above 80 so the radials and not having a center stripe in the tire in front stopped this high speed problem i'm aware of the side load issue but our rims are so narrow it spreads the tire to a more rounded posi but my orignal post was for the person who could not afford a wheel the high speed problem we all have had that in my case it stopped that issue and i would be a stupid idiot on heroin if i prefferd the danger of a high speed issue versus the car tire but it was only ment to help sorry that it made everyone so angry i was only tryin to give info that worked for me no dis intended
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