Need help understanding odd fire/wasted spark!!!

[Trevmaxproject]

Need as much information as possible on my 89 Max firing angles and two flywheel pickups!!! Anyone, Anyone???? Bueller, Bueller??? LMAO
:ummm::bang head::ummm::bang head::ummm::bang head::ummm::bang head:

 

[twistedmax]

Good luck, part of the reason the Wildbros EFI was no good. Wasted spark, AND wasted fuel!

 

[Trevmaxproject]

Good luck, part of the reason the Wildbros EFI was no good. Wasted spark, AND wasted fuel!

Ha Ha. That def has me at a standstill. I'm going to run cop's but not sure how to read the odd fire from two sensors and make a plug fire. COP will kill te waste spark and my program will take care of wasted fuel. Just need help on understanding what sensor does what??

 

[dingy]

Ha Ha. That def has me at a standstill. I'm going to run cop's but not sure how to read the odd fire from two sensors and make a plug fire. COP will kill te waste spark and my program will take care of wasted fuel. Just need help on understanding what sensor does what??

Attached are a few of pictures that may help you.

1st shows a picture of the 4 pickup coils in the stator cover. The pickup points are the round staggered protrusions, two on each assembly.

Pictures of flywheel shows the position of the pickup coil activator protrusions. In top view, the position is marked by black x's on flywheel surface. This flywheel has a heavy duty sprauge type starter clutch in it that is going in Tweety.

Shown side by side are, on left a single coil pickup flywheel and on right a 4 pickup coil flywheel.

Gary

 

[Trevmaxproject]

That's a start and appreciate the pics.

 

[satariel666]

What is to not understand here? Its obvious...

Here you have some "help" files from our freind:

http://vmaxguru.com/Tech/Gen1/Pages/Measurements/Measure_Files.htm

Good luck, part of the reason the Wildbros EFI was no good. Wasted spark, AND wasted fuel!

Thats not tru.

 

[Rusty McNeil]

Wasted spark= no need to determine cam position meaning where the cylinder is in it sequence, all that is needed is to determine crank position and then fire the plug near TDC on both the firing stroke and on the exhaust stroke.
I always thought they did it this way because its easier and the electronics are cheaper. I think.
I don't see how wastes spark equals wasted fuel.
Unless recovery time for the COP's is an issue I don't see why they can't be waste fired too. Not do I see how a COP conversion changes the waste spark as that emanates from the TCI.

Batch spray EFI on the other hand, meaning continuous spray or all spraying at once I see could equal
lost efficiency and wasted fuel. To have a sequential injection spraying individual injectors at the exact appropriate moment requires knowing not just the crank position but the cam
position so that firing TDC and exhaust TDC can be distinguished from each other so that the injectors aren't squirting fuel on the exhaust stroke.

 

[Trevmaxproject]

Attached are a few of pictures that may help you.

1st shows a picture of the 4 pickup coils in the stator cover. The pickup points are the round staggered protrusions, two on each assembly.

Pictures of flywheel shows the position of the pickup coil activator protrusions. In top view, the position is marked by black x's on flywheel surface. This flywheel has a heavy duty sprauge type starter clutch in it that is going in Tweety.

Shown side by side are, on left a single coil pickup flywheel and on right a 4 pickup coil flywheel.

Gary

On mine looks a little different. It's not flush from front to back. It has a step half way to the outside?? Does that meen someone lightened my flywheel??

 

[dingy]

On mine looks a little different. It's not flush from front to back. It has a step half way to the outside?? Does that meen someone lightened my flywheel??

These are both Venture rotors I showed, they may be different than a VMax.

Look at picture in thread below, its a crank assy that Sean Morley has for sale. Flywheel is like what you describe.

http://www.vmaxforum.net/showthread.php?p=289660#post289660

Gary

 

[Rusty McNeil]

This is a lightened one that Sean fixed me up with for a 1999

 

[satariel666]

I would hesitate myself from lightening the flywheel in a daily use moitorcycle.
This will affect torque. Good for racing purposes only.

 

[Trevmaxproject]

I would hesitate myself from lightening the flywheel in a daily use moitorcycle.
This will affect torque. Good for racing purposes only.

I don't know that it is or isn't but from the looks of the pics it is. I'll post a pic today and let someone look at it. I didn't choose the mod it came with the bike.

 

[satariel666]

I don't know that it is or isn't but from the looks of the pics it is. I'll post a pic today and let someone look at it. I didn't choose the mod it came with the bike.

I was reffering to Rusty's flywheel. Your's also lightened but from factory - Yama lightened venture flywheel when converting to v-max thus v-max has its powerband torque lot higher.

 

[Rusty McNeil]

I would hesitate myself from lightening the flywheel in a daily use moitorcycle.
This will affect torque. Good for racing purposes only.

I would normally agree, have driven a couple of 350Z's with turbo installed that had lightened flywheel and the most noticeable effect was that the reduced inertia at super low rpm's made taking off gently from a stop very difficult, requiring slight over revving and either delicate clutch slipping or rapid clutch engagement and even higher rev's to prevent stalling.

On my vmax on the other hand can honestly say that I can't tell a bit of difference really.
But then again I went from a bone stock motor to a 13:1 compression 1540cc at the same time as the new flywheel. So maybe not so good a comparison since my torque is now around 115 and Rwhp around 170

On a stock motor with lightened flywheel I bet you would notice for sure the effect it had, and it might be finnicky on the street.

 

[Rusty McNeil]

I was reffering to Rusty's flywheel. Your's also lightened but from factory - Yama lightened venture flywheel when converting to v-max thus v-max has its powerband torque lot higher.

They also changed something with the firing sequence. The cams are indexed to the crank differently too. The procedure and degrees of rotation between TDC on firing for setting up the cam timing marks are not the same for both bikes.
Damon, who could expand on this better than I , told me that you could set the vmax cams up the same as the venture and it run fine except it would fall on its face at about 6000rpm.
Apparently the waste spark becomes the firing spark when you do this.

 

[satariel666]

I would normally agree, have driven a couple of 350Z's with turbo installed that had lightened flywheel and the most noticeable effect was that the reduced inertia at super low rpm's made taking off gently from a stop very difficult, requiring slight over revving and either delicate clutch slipping or rapid clutch engagement and even higher rev's to prevent stalling.

On my vmax on the other hand can honestly say that I can't tell a bit of difference really.
But then again I went from a bone stock motor to a 13:1 compression 1540cc at the same time as the new flywheel. So maybe not so good a comparison since my torque is now around 115 and Rwhp around 170

On a stock motor with lightened flywheel I bet you would notice for sure the effect it had, and it might be finnicky on the street.

I can hear a story once in a while where someone paid lot of money for lightening the flywheel and havent archived what was expected. Usualy they go back to stock flywheel then.

If your aim is always a power at high rpm thus you are a drag racer then I must admit this is a good idea. On a stock v-max? This shall be a tragedy...

Do you have a torque sheet from dynometer from your modified engine?

They also changed something with the firing sequence. The cams are indexed to the crank differently too. The procedure and degrees of rotation between TDC on firing for setting up the cam timing marks are not the same for both bikes.
Damon, who could expand on this better than I , told me that you could set the vmax cams up the same as the venture and it run fine except it would fall on its face at about 6000rpm.
Apparently the waste spark becomes the firing spark when you do this.

Perhaps - flywheels looks the same at first impression however I've never had a chance to make a detail comprasion. Cams were diffrent for sure.

 

[Rusty McNeil]

If your aim is always a power at high rpm thus you are a drag racer then I must admit this is a good idea. On a stock v-max? This shall be a tragedy...

Do you have a torque sheet from dynometer from your modified engine?

I agree with you on that one. They are not always appropriate.

Although I always viewed lightened fly wheels as a road race item, thinking that in a drag race a heavier flywheel would be more advantageous as it gives added inertia to the engine so that when the bike is launched the tendency to bog is lessened, and a lighter flywheel would lessen inertia and raise the tendency to bog. That's in a real drag race while launching at 4000-6000 rpm. On the street in a roll on I think the lightened flywheel would be an advantage as from a low rpm the engine can rev faster, provided there is adequate power to start with.

No I don't have a Dyno sheet, that's why I said "around" for the numbers rather than claiming a specific number I can't validate and embarrass myself ; )

I have not yet Dynoed it.

But considering the hundreds of lower compression, stock stroke PCW 1500 Tourmasters make a pretty consistent Dyno proven 95-105 torque and 160-165 rwhp with stage 7 carb setup I feel safe in saying my 13:1 5mm stroker crank 1540cc build "should" come in at least as good as the numbers I quoted.

Time will tell when I get around to dynoing it. As well as "where" it makes those numbers. They'll be posted when that happens. The stroker crank should bring the torque peak down but how
Much is yet to be determined.

I'll say one thing for sure on mine, its stupid fast and very rideable from idle to redline with no nasty habits. Full application of the throttle in 1st or 2nd at rpms above 3000 and speeds below 40 mph pretty much just results in a tire spinning exercise.

 

[dingy]

Here is link to a good thread on here pertaining to lightening flywheels.

http://www.vmaxforum.net/showthread.php?t=9798

Gary

 

[Trevmaxproject]

Wasted spark= no need to determine cam position meaning where the cylinder is in it sequence, all that is needed is to determine crank position and then fire the plug near TDC on both the firing stroke and on the exhaust stroke.
I always thought they did it this way because its easier and the electronics are cheaper. I think.
I don't see how wastes spark equals wasted fuel.
Unless recovery time for the COP's is an issue I don't see why they can't be waste fired too. Not do I see how a COP conversion changes the waste spark as that emanates from the TCI.

Batch spray EFI on the other hand, meaning continuous spray or all spraying at once I see could equal
lost efficiency and wasted fuel. To have a sequential injection spraying individual injectors at the exact appropriate moment requires knowing not just the crank position but the cam
position so that firing TDC and exhaust TDC can be distinguished from each other so that the injectors aren't squirting fuel on the exhaust stroke.

So I would need a hall sensor on the cam with a trigger wheel? That would make sense or could I tell me program to fire every other rotation on that cylinder? Hum..... Looks like a need to find a Vtwin engine for some practice now.

 

[Rusty McNeil]

I'm no designer, just ok on theory from having tuned a couple efi cars that had some after market goodies added to them. I couldn't build one from scratch on my best day ever.

With waste spark system we have which is little unusual for engines these days I don't see how any sequential EFI is ever going to be able to distinguish the firing events from each other to determine which one is the power one and which one is waste. You could tell it to squirt every other one but when you start the bike how does it pick which one to begin with? The crank triggers can't tell, all they know is TDC which happens every rotation, which is why we have waste spark to begin with.

For non waste spark system I think the firing event itself plus crank trigger would to the job. But cars still use the cam sensor even tho they aren't waste spark.

There's also a difference between a position sensor and a trigger to consider and now I'm way out of my depth. Our crank sensors are triggers, not position sensors.

I'm thinking batch versus sequential is more about fuel economy any way.
If it was me I'd go batch with closed loop feedback and be done with it.

Truly tho, if it was me I'd just stay with carbs, there's been a lot of heartache put into the wildbros system by a few maxers and no one seems to stay with it in the end. With the closed loop its a pretty well thought out system too. But still no dice. I'd give it a shot myself but not for the money involved, it have to be way less than used flat slides with all the extra bits before I'd even bite on an EFI.