New York & gun control

[dannymax]

You think he has any qualms about using Newtown CT as a stepping stone to the White House? :hmmm:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/50404996/ns/politics-the_new_york_times/

 

[ouchez]

He is a liberal, anti-Constitution puke. And then there are conservative pukes. But people vote them in.:confused2::ummm:

This country is ready to splinter apart, and real violence may be just over the horizon, Syrian type of violence.

O

 

[MtnMax/Magniac]

Reality check

 

[ZackDaniels]

According to people briefed on the talks, the governor is considering not only rewriting the state’s assault weapons ban, but also proposing more expansive use of mental health records in background checks of gun buyers, lower limits on the capacity of magazines sold legally in New York and a new requirement that gun permits be subject to periodic renewal.

This is what concerns me. Law and mental health reviews don't go together well. Mental health is too immeasurable, and that's part of why it gets shit on so hard as a proper science. It's hard for scientists to work without being able to adequately measure something. Purely academic attempts at measuring psychology have been making progress over the years, assigning various scores to various traits and likelihood of affliction and reform, but they're far from a hard measurement and seriously prone to bias.

The only use I'm aware of that this has in law is the Hare Psychopath Test and is used in some states as part of parole hearings to determine the likelihood of a repeat offender. When the test is conducted by neutral parties it has a reasonably high success rate in predicting who's likely to repeat, but when you remove the academics and turn it over to lawyers the same person given the same test will score several points higher when tested by the prosecuting side, and several points lower when tested by the defending side.

Now that it's in place it's really hard to get out. There's no upside in politics to going to bat for criminals, and if you take steps to issue a pardon or revise the law, and somebody in fact does repeat. Kiss your political career goodbye.

Psychology is too new and soft to be used in any significant way in legislation. It does far more damage than it does any good.

Reality check

I'd love to know where those numbers came from. 323 is a number I recognize as being touted by gun banning advocates as just the number of students killed in school shootings in a single year. I can't remember exactly which year precisely, but it was either 2006/7/8. Also lol at tying gun debate to Obamacare... I'm pro gun, but I sure do like knowing where stats come from and being sure I have the facts right.

 

[85 MAX-fan]

Purely academic attempts at measuring psychology have been making progress over the years, assigning various scores to various traits and likelihood of affliction and reform, but they're far from a hard measurement and seriously prone to bias.

Perhaps we should ignore obviously mentally ill criminals and disarm those that have never comitted an act of violence. I mean, since there is no way to even identify lunitics we should just give up on the concept and move on to disarming those that have never done anything remotely resembling a violent crime.........


There's no upside in politics to going to bat for criminals, and if you take steps to issue a pardon or revise the law, and somebody in fact does repeat. Kiss your political career goodbye

Tell that to your good governor, Jesse Jackson, Barbara Boxer, Diane Feinstein and a boat load of others....They aint batting criminals, just their careers.

Psychology is too new and soft to be used in any significant way in legislation. It does far more damage than it does any good.

Far more nebulous than the science of global warming for sure.

 

[dannymax]

Part of the guv's proposed "get my ass to the white house" bleeding edge gun control legislation for NY includes vague references to a "CCW permit periodic renewal process".

Do any of you CCW guys in other states have a periodic renewal process? I'm seeing this as a very bad sign!!

It seems the common theme in all this recent gun control hype is to protect the innocents....the kids in schools, movie goers, etc., from the gun wielding madman....which I have no problem with....but have any of these guys been legit CCW holders? I'm curious....:ummm:

 

[ouchez]

Part of the guv's proposed "get my ass to the white house" bleeding edge gun control legislation for NY includes vague references to a "CCW permit periodic renewal process".

Do any of you CCW guys in other states have a periodic renewal process? I'm seeing this as a very bad sign!!

It seems the common theme in all this recent gun control hype is to protect the innocents....the kids in schools, movie goers, etc., from the gun wielding madman....which I have no problem with....but have any of these guys been legit CCW holders? I'm curious....:ummm:

Danny, don't fool yourself, Washington, New York, WANT ALL your guns so they can then have there way with you, like tomorrow morning you wake to find all your money worth half of what it once was, or that your SS program is now ended and your IRA pension will be taxed at 50%........unarmed, you are like a barking dog with no teeth.

The only thing stopping pure Fascism here, is the armed populace.:damn angry:

O

 

[dannymax]

Danny, don't fool yourself, Washington, New York, WANT ALL your guns so they can then have there way with you, like tomorrow morning you wake to find all your money worth half of what it once was, or that your SS program is now ended and your IRA pension will be taxed at 50%........unarmed, you are like a barking dog with no teeth.

The only thing stopping pure Fascism here, is the armed populace.:damn angry:

O

I can't disagree with that.....the other side of the 'renewal coin,' obviously, is the systematic denial process. Very bad precedent here.

 

[Rollie]

I'm sure no one has noticed that all these Bo gun control threats came after the election. Even Zack confirmed Bo wasn't interested or wasn't on his radar to go after the guns. He's not concerned with how many or who was killed by guns , he's only concerned in disarming the people / limitless power with no threat from the millions out there with weapons , granted the right to bear arms by the constitution . If he's so worried about how many and who have been killed , why doesn't he attack the abortion market ? two cents.

 

[ZackDaniels]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but all that Barry-O has done so far is put together a team to start looking at actually effective ways to prevent gun violence?

The executive order threat was a comment from Biden, and all he did was mention that it was an option. Probably just posturing to a historically uncooperative and now lame-duck congress.

They're just exploring options because the recent string of violence has prompted them to do something. I believe they're meeting with the NRA leaders this week to get their ideas and suggestions.

In short... nothing has actually been done at all yet. Everybody is just talking about what they can do to prevent this in the future. Some have said to renew the assault weapons ban, others have said post an armed guard in every school, and nobody has actually done anything at all yet. 'Lets talk about our options in responding to these recent tragedies' does not = 'Obama is going to disarm America'. Calm down.

 

[SpecOps13]

As an Industry Shooter / Evaluator and working with many manufacturers, there are no "CAST IN BRASS" decisions being made in D.C. yet. All Assault Weapons and Parts have been wiped out by the scare and some of the smaller manufacturers may go out of business awaiting catch up of availability concerning parts.

Dems would be committing political suicide if this is taken too far. Hopefully, they will consider that fact. Or, maybe I don't hope they do. It would make for a one sided race next election.


This is all based on my contact with Congressional Members and is IMHHO.

 

[RaWarrior]

While nothing has actually happened yet, the fact that a lot of these things are even being considered at all is scary. As if there weren't enough reasons to mistrust politicians without all the proposed "options" including confiscating people's guns and using psychology evaluations to determine eligibility. Sure....there are some people that any doctor or psychologist would agree is a bad person to have a gun. The kid that tortured animals as a kid and has bipolar disorder probably isn't the best candidate. But a lot of it as Zack said is much more nebulous. Trying to determine what symptoms or tests can determine if someone is likely to go beserk and shoot up some public place? That sounds like a thinly veiled vehicle to deny gun rights to anyone with the slightest mark against them. Hmm, your parents died at a young age, we the state feel you may be emotionally unstable and should not have a gun. Way too easy to exploit.

If someone actually gets some of these sweeping anti-gun proposals in writing and up to a vote, whoever does it will be absolutely crucified by rights advocates, the NRA, and the media of the opposing party. As said it would be political suicide, but somehow I suspect some asswipe who thinks he's a big patriot ushering in radical changes will do it anyway.

 

[dannymax]

While nothing has actually happened yet, the fact that a lot of these things are even being considered at all is scary. As if there weren't enough reasons to mistrust politicians without all the proposed "options" including confiscating people's guns and using psychology evaluations to determine eligibility. Sure....there are some people that any doctor or psychologist would agree is a bad person to have a gun. The kid that tortured animals as a kid and has bipolar disorder probably isn't the best candidate. But a lot of it as Zack said is much more nebulous. Trying to determine what symptoms or tests can determine if someone is likely to go beserk and shoot up some public place? That sounds like a thinly veiled vehicle to deny gun rights to anyone with the slightest mark against them. Hmm, your parents died at a young age, we the state feel you may be emotionally unstable and should not have a gun. Way too easy to exploit.

If someone actually gets some of these sweeping anti-gun proposals in writing and up to a vote, whoever does it will be absolutely crucified by rights advocates, the NRA, and the media of the opposing party. As said it would be political suicide, but somehow I suspect some asswipe who thinks he's a big patriot ushering in radical changes will do it anyway.

.....OR a guy who sees himself in the white House in a few years!

 

[Rollie]

O bama care is what , 2,500 PAGES long. Do you think they wrote that up in his first term ? Hell no. They , the left , the liberals , the socialists / marxists / communists / , take your pick in naming them , had that set of documents written up long before he even ran for office. It is their dream to take this country down , and have been planning it for decades. Healthcare is just one step. I will guarantee that Biden will have a plan for gun control by tuesday or whatever day he stated in the news today. And it will be a comprehensive and futuristic plan , beginning with small steps , to control all guns in this country. Remember what Bo said to Putin when he thought no one else could hear . He's already stated many times , he wants to drastically change America . What do you think that means , keeping the status quo or going the opposite way we have done things , capitalistic style , for over 200 years ?There can never be enough taxes on the people for them to spend. Look around at the new payroll taxes . Who pays them ? The middle class , working class. The wealthy got a small bump 'cause they don't participate in the payroll tax scheme. They get their wealth / income from investments .
How 'bout that ole Al Gore ? Sold his global warming scam business for $ 500 million to who ? All the while enjoying his corporate jet and mansion lifestyle while preaching carbon footprint B.S. These bastards are winning and I don't see many in Congress with the balls to stand up to 'em. Keep your powder dry my brothers.

Thomas Jefferson noted a long time ago that " the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants . " and " the strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is , as a last resort , to protect themselves against tyranny in government . "

 

[rf900flyer]

I just saw the movie "1984"....it's heading that way.

 

[ZackDaniels]

Obamacare is based on a lot of old legislation. Mostly based on Republican state legislation, which is based on Republican paths paved as far back as Nixon. It's a solution that can benefit everybody.

I thought this was about gun control though?

 

[MtnMax/Magniac]

Why is it so hard for people to understand that making it too difficult for law-abiding citizens to own guns can only serve to embolden criminals, who don't give a rat's a$$ about any kind of gun laws. They will only feel safer in attacking victims they are sure won't be shooting back. Mass shootings occur in schools, theaters, restaurants, malls, etc., places where there are not likely to be armed citizens to return fire. Has anyone ever perpetrated a mass shooting at a police station, gun club, or other location likely to have guns on site? So what can more gun control laws possibly do to make anyone more safe?

 

[Traumahawk]

Obamacare is based on a lot of old legislation. Mostly based on Republican state legislation, which is based on Republican paths paved as far back as Nixon. It's a solution that can benefit everybody.

I thought this was about gun control though?

This is about Gun Control, but earlier there was a picture posted about the number of deaths from medical malpractice. Here are figures that I have stemming from a 10 year study from 1994-2004.

So, Guns...Semi automatic or not...are not a leading cause of death in this country...as usual IMHO...

Eric

 

[ZackDaniels]

We can try to solve more than 1 problem at a time. Especially if they're not related in any way. It's more than simple number of fatalities/wounded anyway. Everybody in one of these schools, the movie theater, or in a bad situation like this has their life's course rocked. Teachers shouldn't need to be as alert as soldiers.

Why is it so hard for people to understand that making it too difficult for law-abiding citizens to own guns can only serve to embolden criminals, who don't give a rat's a$$ about any kind of gun laws. They will only feel safer in attacking victims they are sure won't be shooting back. Mass shootings occur in schools, theaters, restaurants, malls, etc., places where there are not likely to be armed citizens to return fire. Has anyone ever perpetrated a mass shooting at a police station, gun club, or other location likely to have guns on site? So what can more gun control laws possibly do to make anyone more safe?

Yes. Many times. As recent as this December. Legislation requiring secure storage and training by a 3rd party shouldn't boost organized crime much. Most people will jump through hoops to obtain something legally and save themselves the hassle. Not too many people are going to say "ugh... I need to complete a training course now, fuck it... time to seek out some gun dealer in a back alley because it's easier."

 

[Rollie]

[QUOTE=ZackDaniels;292487 Teachers shouldn't need to be as alert as soldiers.



Are you kidding me ? They have the responsibility of taking care of our most precious " possessions " , our children , our futures. Sure , not all should carry , but a few should. They should be trained to know what to do and practice it , like a freaking fire drill , on a regular basis.