options - overheating vmax1700 if in stop and go traffic for 30 minutes

[speakerfritz]

I have a 2014 vmax1700 with 25K to 30K miles. not sure of the exact miles since the odometer stopped working a few years ago. bike is stock engine wise . some mods in terms of handle bars, rearsets, new painted tins, etc.

so the issue at hand...
-the bike was bought new by me in 2015. since then, its has been my daily driver to go to work. about a 12 mile distance in metro traffic. some times, traffic is bad, and we are crawling at 5 mph or less. when new, this was not a problem...last 2 years...during hot days...the bike will redlight on the temp and sometimes coolant will vocano out .

some observations....
-the lower radiator seems like it takes a good beaten from road debris and/or road tar. I flipped my front fender a few years ago to get more of the fender to protect the lower. I think flipping the finder gets you 2 more inches.
- the bike does cool some if ran for a while afer a period of stop and go...so there is heat transfer.

-the fan always seems to come on late...I have been looking of ra sensor that changes the fan engagement temp to come on sooner..no luck. I did put in a second fan and have a manual switch which helps. also, I changed my drain to brass and could possibly put in a fan sensor there and tie it to the second fan.

- I did a few fin cleanings for both the upper and lower..but no real improvement.

- I did a coolant drain with a supercool type coolant., flush, refill. and after surviving the air burping period...I see a very small improvement. I did find a piece of plastic about 1 inch long. dont know if it was the tip of the plastic drain plug, or if the impeller is made of plastic.

- I replaced the stock radiator cap with a yamaha cap of same PSI/BAR.

- I also added royal purple water wetter.....barley noticable improvement.

- my most recent tweak is replacing the stock radiator cap of 1.1 bar with an aftermarket cap of 1.3 bar. that is supposed to get me 3 more PSI and hopefully give me more time before boil over. this seems to make the biggest difference so far. now it does recover when at the higher end of the heat range instead of going into boil over...but it still runs in the 3/4 + range of the heat dial if exposed to a lot of stop and go.

I have not had any boil overs since the cap and coolant change.

but, I dont have much of a range left on the heat dial...it operates at or above the 3/4 range once it hits stop and go traffic for a while.

if I dont hit stop and go traffic and can keep over 40 mph, the bike stays slightly above the half way mark.

sometimes if I hit a shot period of stop and go....the bike will go to 3/4 but if I can resume cruising speed.....the heat will indicate back down slightly above half way after a few minutes.

so for now....as long as i am in the high 80's and not the 90's and dont hit stop and go...I can make it to work.

some random thoughts

-there seems to be a lot of hot air being sucked in due to vertical rise of heat, during stop and go....was thinking of making some typ of deflector to prevent heat rise from going directly into intake scoops.

- I am wondering if my CAT is clogged causing the heat issues...I have a newer take off CAT that I may swap out.

- my AFR is stock, I know I can cool it down a bit if I richen the AFR and am not opposed to one of the fuel tune solutions.

- not sure if the vmax1700 has an oil cooler, but that would be an interesting option to get a few degrees of cooling added.

-I know I can start swapping out parts...lower radiator...upper radiator...coolant pump....but frankly...theres no scientific analysis approach that would motivate me to spend 700 - 900 dollars replacing these parts before swapping out the CAT, or putting in a fuel tuner.

my thoughts

a. find an oil cooler to get a few more degrees of cooling.
b. swap out the CAT and see if thats improves things. cost is free since I have an extra newer CAT.
c. get rid of the CAT, I have a straight pipe setup I bought used and never installed..it replaces the CAT tub. I didnt install it becuase I did not want to loose the butterfly baffle function in the OEM . that function acts like an engine air brake and has saved my a$# on more than 1 occasion.
d. by a fuel tuner. itching to do this anyway.
e. lower radiator back flush
f. upper radiator back flush
e. replace lower radiator . about 340 dollars.
f. replace upper radiator. another 340 dollars
g. replace water pump. about 150 dollars
h. I know about the mod to by pass the stock heat sensor and will probally do that...but...would like to see what other gains I can pull out of my hat.

the bike runs fine otherwise. I change the oil every years. I probally put 3000 mikes on it yearly.

the heat problem is if the bike gets into stop and go crawling traffic for a while.

when the weather hits mid 90's, I will probably have to switch bikes. I do not think it will make it to work if I hit 20 minutes of stop and go if the weather is in the mid to high 90's.

anyone have any comments that will help prioritize what to do next.


thanks for the input.

 

[mnl119]

The only other suggestion I have is to raise the percentage of water in your coolant. Water is a better heat transfer fluid than glycol. Most track cars use straight water with water wetter for lubrication with good results.

 

[speakerfritz]

Interesting. I don’t know why….I actually was thinking to reduce the water % to help with the boiling point ….thinking 75 coolant/25 water would boil over less than 50 coolant / 50 water.

a few years back I was running evans waterless coolant and it never boiled over….but…the metals retained more heat.

interesting and I will investigate.

 

[mnl119]

My 2015 Corvette z06 manual calls for a 50/50 mix. In 2017, Chevy decided to recommend 60 water/40 coolant to help with overheating issues. This is for a car that might possibly be driven in cold temperatures.

 

[speakerfritz]

Ok

will add that change to the list and bump it up.

 

[02GF74]

Hmmmm.

Cheap things to check and replace.
1. Thermostat - is it opening fully at the correct temperature. Drilling a 3mm hole in it allow some water to pass through when closed and helps prevent airlocks.
2. Fan switch - is it on at the correct temperature.
3. Fan(s) - is wiring good and contacts secure and oxide free?
4. Radiator matrix - is it in good condition and free of debris? (don't clean with a power washer as that is likely to remove the fins)
5. Radiator flush. Unless you have been using deionised water, tap water contains dissolved minerals (carbonates) that over time coat the inside of the radiator. There are fluids that are supposed to remove it (a cheap option is vinegar - or another acid). BTW I've tried both on old car radiators and not convinced it made any noticeable difference.

Are you able to get your hands on an IR thermometer to see if the temperature across the matrix is even? (note these are typically £10 so are not hugely expensive)

6. Is the water pump in good condition, I think the only way to tell is by dismantling.

I don't understand how the cat is going to cause overheating.

 

[speakerfritz]

Yes, I have an IR . Will check the heat spread.

drilling hole in thermostat, great idea.

fan works ..comes on between half/three quarters

did the flush a month ago.

clogged cat raises heat due to restricted air flow.
M

 

[02GF74]

Note small hole is more for airlock, unlikely to solve your overheating.

Re. Cat - under normal use it should not get blocked. I would have thought there would be other effects such as reduced power or gas test fail due to blocked/malfunctioning cat.

Re. Flush - did you use a car radiator descaler or run clean water through the radiator?

BTW you should be able to do the testing on drive which is a controlled environment without any worry of a breakdown whilst on the road away from home.

Re thermostat, example below has a small float inserted in the hole:
float drops down opening the hole when in air and rises to block the hole when in water.
.

 

[speakerfritz]

I used an official radiator flush per the flush instructions.

Ran clear water thru after the flush.

drain and filled with 50/50 premix motorcycle cookant.

 

[Zeus36]

I'm leaning towards a water pump issue. If possible, I would check to see how much coolant is flowing - your flow rate vs the stock spec (if there is one). Maybe pull the pump and inspect it. I would also be concerned about that 1" inch piece of plastic you found. Did you photograph that piece of plastic or keep it just in case you eventually found out were it came from?
Was is round?
Hollow?
Tubing?
Solid?

 

[speakerfritz]

The black plastic looked like it might be the tip of the plastic drain plug.

Would the water pump impeller be plastic?

thanks everyone
M

 

[MaxMidnight]

It strikes me that you are trying to fix the symptoms of the problem rather than the problem itself.

As you have had the bike from new I assume that it hasn't always had the issue or it would have been back to the dealer for rectification.
On that basis something has happened to reduce the coolant flow through the engine.

As has been suggested above my first step would be to check that the thermostat is opening at the correct temperature. This involves some dismantling to test.
Don't fanny about drilling holes in it if it tests OK as you are not fixing the prime cause.

If the t.stat is OK then check the radiators for cold areas during warm up. This would indicate a blockage in the core.
How often have you changed the antifreeze/ corrosion inhibitor? Yameringha specify every two years and if this has not been done then my money would be on a partially blocked radiators.

If still no problem found move on to the water pump. I would remove this and physically inspect it for damage.
Check the coolant fan switch for correct operation and check the condition of fan motor and blades.

If all that checks out OK (unlikely or you haven't checked properly) strip off all the coolant hoses and look for blockages.

You need to find the prime cause of the problem; any short term fix will be only masking the issue which will probably continue to deteriorate and may result in significant damage.

PS: Suggest you only post your problem in one place - multiple postings of the same issue are confusing for those trying to folllow the comments.

 

[speakerfritz]

 

[speakerfritz]

So this morning I was at 1/2 point on heat indicator for almost all of the 12 mile trip. The last 1/4 mile were the usual four 3 minute red lights. When I pulled in to park after 15 minutes of my foot on the ground due to red lights , I am just below max on the heat dial with no red warning light.

putting my hand in front of the scoops and it’s clear the engine is sucking in hot air from radiator.

mid it were not for the 1.3 bar cap, the high performance motorcycle coolant and the water wetter…the bike would have boiled over.


Don’t know what the mix was when I bought the bike. Maybe it was 60/40. I have been using 50/50. So this weekend will try 60/40.

 

[speakerfritz]

It strikes me that you are trying to fix the symptoms of the problem rather than the problem itself.

As you have had the bike from new I assume that it hasn't always had the issue or it would have been back to the dealer for rectification.
On that basis something has happened to reduce the coolant flow through the engine.

As has been suggested above my first step would be to check that the thermostat is opening at the correct temperature. This involves some dismantling to test.
Don't fanny about drilling holes in it if it tests OK as you are not fixing the prime cause.

If the t.stat is OK then check the radiators for cold areas during warm up. This would indicate a blockage in the core.
How often have you changed the antifreeze/ corrosion inhibitor? Yameringha specify every two years and if this has not been done then my money would be on a partially blocked radiators.

If still no problem found move on to the water pump. I would remove this and physically inspect it for damage.
Check the coolant fan switch for correct operation and check the condition of fan motor and blades.

If all that checks out OK (unlikely or you haven't checked properly) strip off all the coolant hoses and look for blockages.

You need to find the prime cause of the problem; any short term fix will be only masking the issue which will probably continue to deteriorate and may result in significant damage.

PS: Suggest you only post your problem in one place - multiple postings of the same issue are confusing for those trying to folllow the comments.

so in nyc the hourly rate is 110 and parts are marked up, so a job that could be 800 in parts will wind up costing close to 3k . So I stay clear of the local repair shops.

 

[MaxMidnight]

so in nyc the hourly rate is 110 and parts are marked up, so a job that could be 800 in parts will wind up costing close to 3k . So I stay clear of the local repair shops.

And your point is?
I've not suggested that you take it anywhere for diagnosis or repair but have suggested the route I would take to fix the problem.
Everything is within the abilities of a reasonably competent owner.
You don't have to take my advice but as you have already spent time and money to little effect I'd hope an alternative point of view would be appreciated.

Also note that Yameringha recommended a 1:1 ratio of coolant to water so that is what would have come out of the factory. The Service manual explains this.

 

[mnl119]

Don’t know what the mix was when I bought the bike. Maybe it was 60/40. I have been using 50/50. So this weekend will try 60/40.

If it were me, I would go 2:1 water/glycol. This gives freeze protection down to about 0F. I don't know your storage conditions over the winter months, but my bike is always inside and never sees temps that low. 60/40 gives freeze protection down to about -10F or so.

 

[speakerfritz]

Great info so far….have some easy lift things to try.
M

 

[02GF74]

If it were me, I would go 2:1 water/glycol. This gives freeze protection down to about 0F.

Cold storage isn't the issue here.
If you are suggesting the 2:1 mix will stop the overheating? If so was your bike overheating, what mix were you using and did 2:1 mix cure it?

I may well be proved wrong, but I do not believe changing the mix, adding water wetter, mixing virgin tears etc is going help.

Yamaha designed the engine to use regular coolant and the engine was running well from new.

Something else is the cause.

As I and Mr Midnight posted, check the thermostat and radiator temps and water pump. Yes, this is more work than draining the coolant and replacing it but may bring results.

As an aside, check the fan motor, is it pulling strongly and measure voltage across it in case the wired override has affected it.

My gut feeling says it is radiator blockage or water pump failure.

 

[mnl119]

Cold storage isn't the issue here.
If you are suggesting the 2:1 mix will stop the overheating? If so was your bike overheating, what mix were you using and did 2:1 mix cure it?

I agree that something else is wrong here... probably air flow over the radiator, a plugged radiator, t-stat or the water pump, but running a heavier water mix definitely helps to keep any engine running cooler. Cold storage is an issue since he's unlikely to change the radiator fluid just to store it in the winter.