Politics: Nunes Memo

[Kronx]

I was having lunch with some folks yesterday the discussion of the Nunes memo came up. There was quite a bit of mis-understandings that I heard during that discussion. Understandably so considering the chaos from our current news cycles.

Word in the rumor mills is this memo is going to allege that Deputy AG Rosenstein(appointed by Trump admin) renewed surveillance that had been ongoing for some time on Carter Page. The rumors are the memo will allege this renewal was approved based solely on the Steele dossier. But again, that's just the rumors. I guess we'll know for sure if/when it's actually released.

But here's what I wanted to point out that folks at lunch didn't know:

--Carter Page has been under FBI surveillance/investigation since 2014. Two years before the Steele dossier.

--Page met with a Russian intelligence operative, Victor Podobnyy in 2013 when Page was an energy consultant. Victor was later charged by US for acting as unregistered agents of a foreign government that came after a Russian spy ring was busted in 2015.

--A court filing by the US government contains a transcript of a recorded conversation between Victor Podobnyy and another man who was busted in the spy ring named Igor Sporyshev. In that transcript they talked about recruiting someone they identified as "Male-1". The transcript goes into a good bit of detail about the conversations Podobnyy had with Male-1.

--Carter Page himself confirmed he was Male-1. Admitted he met with Podobnyy when Podobnyy was working at Moscow's UN office in New York.

So the point here is to show that Carter Page had already been on the FBI's rader two years before the Steele dossier and years before he associated with Trump. Deputy AG Rosenstein's renewel of surveillance on him isn't out of the ordinary at all. Maybe Nunes' memo has nothing to do with Carter Page. Again, we will find out for sure if/when the memo is released. But there's a lot of talk that is what the memo will allege. And now there is talk the Republicans may try to spin this as some sort of civil liberty issue of federal surveillance authority. That's a something I would absolutely agree on as a citizen, but that would be some SERIOUSLY empty talk from anyone in Congress considering just a few days they LITERALLY just approved the renewal of section 702 of FISA -- the provision that authorizes this surveillance -- with no reforms or limits to it.

 

[lastwhiteman]

Let's see what the released memo says before we jump to conclusions, but what is released to us kulaks will probably be something completely different than the actual memo.

 

[Kronx]

It's a memo written by Devin Nunes based on a FISA warrant. FISA warrants are generally around 50 to 60 pages long.

I'm not really sure what you mean by "what's released will be completely different from the actual memo" since the person releasing the memo is the same one who wrote it - Devin Nunes. If you mean the memo isn't reflective of what all is in the FISA warrant then I would agree.

 

[lastwhiteman]

True, my oversight, sorry. And I agree with you on that fact.
Way too much disinformation from all sides at this point.

 

[Kronx]

So the HPSCI released the transcripts of the vote they had regarding this memo. (Link to the doc on the House of Rep's site below). But a couple of things that reveal themselves in these transcripts that I think doesn't get mentioned enough in all the discussions regarding this memo that are, in my opinion, INCREDIBLY important.

--There are only TWO members of the House who have seen the underlying intelligence and the FISA warrant these memos are even about: Devin Nunes and Adam Schiff.

--NONE of the other members of the House Intelligence committee members or the House have seen that information. None of the members of the House have seen that underlying information/FISA warrant. The ONLY thing they've seen is this memo written by Nunes and the rebuttal memo written by Schiff. Just to make it clear: BOTH of these memos refer to underlying information that NO ONE ELSE has seen. All of these folks on the committee are LITERALLY voting blind here. Which is just crazy to me.

--A request was made for both the DOJ and FBI to come before the committee to present their case for not releasing the memo. It was denied because Nunes claimed both the DOJ and the FBI were under investigation. That information came a surprise to a few of the members on the committee who were not aware that the DOJ and the FBI were under investigation and committee rules are they are supposed to be notified.

--A request was then made that some other department with the proper clearance and knowledge of classifications, such as the Inspector General, review the material to ensure sensitive information wouldn't be compromised with the release of these memos. That request was denied along party lines. Republicans voted No and Democrats voted yes.

--A request was made that if they vote to release Nunes' memo that Schiff's memo be released along with it. At the same time for sake of full transparency. An argument was made that they need more time to review Schiffs memo and vet it. But as mentioned above and Schiff points out in the transcripts... only two people have the clearance to see this FISA warrant/information... so NO ONE has the clearance that can actually "vet" either memo. Yet it was still offered that they get a week with the Schiff memo for a week and just delay the release of the Nunes memo for week and release them both. That too was voted down along party lines.

--But in short it was asked that the Nunes memo not get released to the public, but if it does, to have the Schiff memo released along with it. They're not going to do it.

--Just as an aside as it was stated in the transcripts and doesn't pertain to the memo, but was something one of the committee members referred but didn't got into any detail: Russia successfully hacked 36 US state election boards.

My takeaway after reading these transcripts -- it's clear releasing these memo is going to breach a longstanding protocol with these intelligence committees. Nune's memo and Schiff's memo(if it's ever allowed to be released) are going to refer to information NO ONE can validate and that's a big problem for me. Because all of this is going to do is stir shit up with no way to know what's the truth. And that's the last thing needed in an already chaotic climate of misinformation. No pun intended here, but voting for release of something like this without knowing what you're really voting on seems like political Russian roulette. Since Nunes' memo is going to be the only word on the matter, a lot of Republicans are putting their faith/trust in Nunes. The Republicans refusal to release both memos at the same time, in my opinion, flies in the face of wanting "full transparency." Especially considering only two people who have actually seen the information these memos will refer to are the authors of the memos. It is quite literally Nunes' word vs Schiffs. And the Republicans are choosing to let Nunes speak while muting/delaying Schiffs. I personally wouldn't want either memo released unless the underlying information was released with it, but that's never going to happen. So I don't see the point in all of this since again none of the information in either memo can be truly validated. This really is just political theatre but in a very dangerous way and to what end? Just my two cents.



Link to the transcripts:
http://docs.house.gov/meetings/IG/IG00/20180129/106822/HMTG-115-IG00-Transcript-20180129.pdf

 

[lastwhiteman]

There are too many backroom things happening in this whole Russia conspiracy on both sides and FBI and DOJ.

How it can even be considered that the FBI can dictate the terms of an oversight function of Congress be subordinated to the very agency Congress is investigating?

Why are the democrats working overtime to discredit this memo before it's released anyway? If it's crap then pick it apart in open forum.

I do agree that this whole thing stinks and if there was a weaponization of the DOJ and FBI along political lines then it should be exposed. We've all seen the things these people are capable of doing without remorse. If the Russians are so good at hacking our computers then they probably already have the FISA warrants and will show up on Wikileaks soon.

 

[Kronx]

I think in regards to the Democrats efforts to discredit this memo is for a few reasons:

---Many suspect the whole purpose of this memo is the provide a justification for Trump to fire Deputy AG Rosenstein. Now Paul Ryan said yesterday this memo isn't about Rosenstein or Mueller. But Ryan has no effing clue what Trump plans to do. He never does.

---Just as a reminder. Jeff Sessions had to recuse himself from the Russia investigation. So it fell on the shoulders of Deputy AG Rosenstein. Rosenstein is the one who appointed Mueller as special counsel and therefore is the only one in the DOJ who can fire Mueller. So the concern from the Democrats is that based off this Nune's memo Trump fires Rosenstein > puts in a Deputy AG that's "loyal" to Trump > that deputy AG kills the special counsel's investigation.

---Nunes is a close ally of Trump. He was on Trump's transition team. He's not impartial at all when it comes to Trump. Nunes already has a history of shenanigans at the behest of Trump which is why he had to recuse himself from the House's Russia investigations for doing pretty much EXACTLY what the Dems are suspicious of him doing now. If you read the HPSCI transcripts from above they directly asked Nunes if the White House was involved in any way with helping draft this memo. Nunes' answer wasn't very convincing and when asked for clarification he refused to answer and moved on. So it's not out of line at all for the Dems to be incredibly sceptical of Nunes' intent here.


As far as your suggestion of "if it's crap, pick it apart in an open forum" I have a few comments:

---Facts don't matter any more. If it IS crap and the Dems DID pick apart with facts it wouldn't make one difference IMO -- it would just be blown off as 'fake news.'

---Keep in mind the Dems have requested that Nunes' memo and Schiff's memo be released at the same time to effectively do what you suggested. The Republicans denied it. So one could ask "If the Nunes' memo is legit, why not let Schiffs memo be released along with it and let the public decide?" But really that's all BS too because BOTH memos are going to refer to source information NONE of us can or will see. This whole effing political theatre is basically saying "Here's two book reports on a book you haven't read and we wont let you read. Now tell us which book report is the right one." It's a debate NO ONE can truly win -- and they KNOW that! This is deliberate manipulation of the American discourse which is already a mess right now. And to me that's the key to all of this. The KNOW there can be no way validate any truth to this. So the release of this memo has a purpose other than exposing the truth. And given Nunes' alliance to Trump I think the Dem's suspicions are correct in what this is truly about.

---If the Dems suspicions are correct as to Nunes' intent with this (to justify firing Rosenstein and ultimately shutting down the special council) then by the time any public "debate" on the Nunes' memo takes place the damage would already be done and Rosenstein would have already been seen the door.

Keep in mind when all of this is going on and Trump makes statements like he tweeted this morning condemning the leadership of the DOJ and FBI.... these are ALL people HIS ADMINISTRATION appointed! Rosenstein and Wray are HIS choices! But now he's trying to claim they're working for the Dems. If we were in a world where facts mattered, that BS wouldn't fly since they're HIS appointments. And he "only hires the best people." But facts don't matter anymore.

 

[Bill Seward]

You're absolutely correct. Facts don't matter to a traitorous lying narcissist like Trumpf.

 

[Kronx]

You're absolutely correct. Facts don't matter to a traitorous lying narcissist like Trumpf.

There's so much about this memo stuff that bothers me, but the biggest is this premise:

"Here's a book report on a book you'll never be able to read. You have no idea if I've included everything in the book or if I've left half the book out. But you should trust me."


That's the sell with this memo. And that sell is coming from a guy whose already been found guilty of working with the White House to create a false narrative that resulted in him having to recuse himself. It's basically a known counterfeiter paying you in cash and telling you it's all legit.

My opinion is this is all bullshit to give some justification to ultimately shut down the special counsel's investigation. And I can easily be proven wrong by Trump once the memo is released and what he does as a result. Because Paul Ryan and other House members who voted yes for this memo's release have been claiming the past few days this memo has nothing to do with Rosenstein or Mueller. We will see.

But if Trump does fire Rosenstein as a result of this memo will his base question it? Fuck No! Trump was correct. He can literally break the law in broad daylight and they'll still support him. He did it last week. He refused to enforce the LAW that Congress passed damn near unanimously 517-5 and HE signed to impose sanctions on Russia for their interference. He refused to enforce that law as the CIA director HE appointed literally says in the same week that he has no doubt Russia will interfere with our mid-term election. But we get told all this obsession with Trump and Russia has no basis. We're in the twilight zone man. Logic and reason no longer applies to this world.

 

[Kronx]

Well they just released the memo and I took a quick browse of it and like I originally posted, it seems to be focusing on Carter Page and the Steele Dossier and COMPLETELY leaving out any information regarding the information I stated in my original post. It makes it seem like the ONLY reason they renewed surveillance on Carter Page was the Steele dossier which is absolutely misleading. And Nunes knows damn well it is.

Edit after reading the memo more thorougly: Yep. Just like the rumors I mention in my original post, this is what the memo is trying to do. It's trying to allege the ONLY reason for this surveillance on Carter Page was due to the Steele dossier. The facts I stated about Carter Page above are easily verifiable. Rosenstein has done NOTHING wrong in regards to renewing this FISA warrant on Carter Page.

But the Trump echo chambers are already starting to say fire Rosenstein. The twitter/Facebook bots will start pushing it too. I will bet you a steak dinner that's what Sean Hannity will be saying tonight as well. And they'll somehow conveniently forget to mention any of the information I listed above. They will NEVER mention Carter Page actually gave documents to KNOWN SVR agents who have been charged by our US government BEFORE the Steele dossier ever existed. It will be ALL about the Steel dossier. As if that's the only evidence the FBI is using and it's not. That is DELIBERATELY misleading. Nunes, Trump, and all the GOP who voted Yes to release this memo know it is misleading.

If Trump fires Rosenstein over this, shit is going to nuclear.

 

[ga_max]

Party before country. And they call themselves Patriots. Sad

 

[Kronx]

Party before country. And they call themselves Patriots. Sad

This is party before country on an entirely new level this country has never seen. This is historic. I don't think it's a coincidence that over 30 Republicans are retiring/not running for re-election in the mid-terms. They know what's on the horizon and they don't want to be anywhere near it when it arrives.


And they're already starting the push of the lie.

 

[Kronx]

So it seems there's some information to correct. Devin Nunes never read the FISA warrant his memo is based on. It seems he had Trey Gowdy look at it instead. And Gowdy helped Nunes with the memo. So Nunes authored and is championing a memo referring to a warrant he's never even seen.

So now the sell is "I'm championing a book report that I helped write about a book I never read, but another person who read the book helped me write my book report. You should totally believe our book report is accurate.":ummm:

http://www.businessinsider.com/devi...memo-intelligence-russia-investigation-2018-2


But while reading that this strange thought crossed my mind. Ok, I'm just gonna throw this thought out there. I admit it's just a random thought with not much time spent on it. Probably completely wrong. But Trey Gowdy... he was in the news recently wasn't he? Oh yea, he just announced this week he's not seeking re-election in 2018 either. He says he wants get back into working in the justice system. Hmm, justice system eh? I wonder if he knows of a position opening up in the DOJ soon? Like maybe a certain Deputy AG? Nah. Surely he wouldn't co-author a memo that Trump uses as justification to fire the Deputy AG and then Gowdy fills that position that his memo helped vacate would he? That's crazy right? Yes, it's crazy. But this is the Twilight Zone after all... who the eff knows what's going to happen.

 

[Bill Seward]

Hopefully and rightly so.

 

[lastwhiteman]

You're absolutely correct. Facts don't matter to a traitorous lying narcissist like Trumpf.

You're not biased at all are you.

I would prefer to see the truth be presented from both sides of these criminal organizations we lovingly refer to as "political parties".

This is about as close to the truth as we'll ever get.

 

[Kronx]

Well I can tell you that are facts:

-36 State Elections boards were hacked in 2016. The public doesn't know what all was compromised however.

-Russian prolific use of hacking and bots on social media platforms to push narratives during the election campaigns. Confirmed by both Facebook and Twitter. And this is continuing today. The whole #releasethememo (something the GOP keeps talking about in terms of how strong it trended) was tracked and it was pushed hard by tens of thousands of Russian bot accounts.

-Jared Kushner and Eric Trump ran the digital side of Trump's campaign. And those digital services they employed are being investigated for working with the Russians.

-We know, because Don Jr released the emails himself, that they met with Russians who claimed they had dirt on Hillary.

-We know just about every damn high ranking member of the Trump campaign and Trump admin has lied about their contacts with Russia.

-The memo released yesterday also shoots down a lie the Trump admin and Fox News has been pushing for over year now -- that the Russia investigation was launched because of the Steele dossier. The memo yesterday states the FBI Investigation actually started due to Papadopolous. Papadopolous, when he was an advisor on the Trump campaign, had bragged to an Aussie diplomat that the Russians had information on Clinton BEFORE it was made public the DNC was hacked. The Australian government informed the FBI. Because how the hell would a Trump campaign advisor know the Russians had information on Clinton?


But here's something I want to point out because I see this all the time and the meme you posted alludes to this. And because Trump actually tweeted more bullshit out this morning of a similar vein. I CONSTANTLY see when the latest Trump story breaks. "I've yet to see evidence of collusion." Or "This investigation has been going on for over a year and nothing has come of it. Clearly they haven't found anything."

You're not going hear anything about collusion until the investigation is over. All of these stories we read in the news -- those aren't coming from the Mueller team. That information is coming from the Trump administration or reporters. When it's news such as "Mueller is indicting Manafort" it is because the indictment is public record NOT because the Mueller team said they were doing it.

There is very little if ANY information actually coming from the Mueller team. NO ONE knows what all information they have. And that's not because they don't have anything its because THAT'S HOW YOU RUN AN INVESTIGATION.

When you DO hear about possible information they may have its because Mueller brings someone in from the Trump campaign/administration and asks them questions and then THAT person goes back and spills the beans and the information goes out. Have you ever seen Mueller give ONE interview since being assigned special counsel? NOPE. That team is locked down tight in regards to information. So ANYONE making any claims on what they think Mueller has or doesn't have is full of shit and talking out their ass.

When it comes to "Its been over a year and nothing." Investigations take time. Nixon Watergate investigation took TWO years. And Nixon Watergate is childs play compared to the scope of this investigation. And I would also like to point out because it's history and you can find it -- but Nixon made all the same claims Trump is doing. "It's a witch hunt." "It's been over a year and nothing has come of it." That's what Nixon was saying and that's what his supporters were saying. Right up to the day over 40 people got put in handcuffs. History is a lovely tool to use if you need to see what a President might do when they're guilty. Look up Nixon's Saturday Night massacre and then reflect on that news recently that even Fox confirmed that Trump was wanting to fire the special counsel Mueller.

 

[Bill Seward]

I absolutely AM biased against Trumpf..
His day is coming, the sooner the better.

 

[Eugene Brad]

I absolutely AM biased against Trumpf..
His day is coming, the sooner the better.

I dont think it has to be considered bias to not like someone, especially like Trump. I think, objectively, his actions have made it evident that he is an ass.

Sent from my SM-G360V using Tapatalk

 

[Traumahawk]

A find of mine said this a long time ago, and it has turned out to be absolutely true.

The Difference between liberals and conservatives.

Conservatives think that liberals are stupid or ignorant. Here are the facts that you just arent seeing......or listening too.

Liberals think that conservatives are EVIL. They are racist, homophobic, dumping used motor oil into the environment, AND want to kill polar bears.

So the main question is, was a dossier that has been said to be salacious, and unverifiable used in anyway shape or form, for a FISA warrant, and who all got caught up in the warrant?

I have lost people that I considered to be good friends due to a difference in Ideology. I was called racist to my face. It still stings to this day.

If you look at it from the perspective that what the Left has to say comes from an emotional driving factor.......it all makes sense.

 

[Bill Seward]

Never equated conservatives with the tags Evil, Racist, Homophobic, etc.

Just Trumpf.

We gave a narcissist, blowhard, pathetic excuse for a man the most powerful position in the world. (Well not me - I didn't vote for him..)
All he's done with the job is make a damn fool of himself with inane tweet after tweet. The US is well on the way to being the laughingstock of the world. To quote the asshole, "Sad.."