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Rear Turn signal set up questions

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norcalAF

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The previous owner of my Vmax ran the aftermarket rear turn signals through the still attached stock signals. Just tucked them up under the rear seat and wrapped the bulbs with HVAC tape. Any thoughts on how to eliminate the original bulbs from the wiring harness and retain blinker function? I put on an integrated tail light unit, and the brake functioned wired up very easily, I ran the signal lights wiring (it was only two wires, left and right) up the routing for the brake lights and soldered an extension of wire on to get some more length and basically just replaced the previously installed aftermarket signal positive sides with the new wiring. everything functions as intended, but i would like to remove the still attached stock signal bulbs from the wiring harness as if one of them were to break i would lose that sides blinker function.
 

MaxMidnight

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Are they LED of different wattage to the OE indicators?
Assuming they are then to eliminate the OE bulbs you will need to fit balast resisters in parallel to your current bulbs.
Have a look here.
 

norcalAF

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Are they LED of different wattage to the OE indicators?
Assuming they are then to eliminate the OE bulbs you will need to fit balast resisters in parallel to your current bulbs.
Have a look here.
yes they are led, as were the aftermarket signals they replaced. The integrated tail lights only have one wire for each signal side, no ground, just a positive. how would i go about wiring that? just run a grounded resistor off of each? please forgive me, I'm an electrical wiring noob.
 

02GF74

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An indicator relay works by having a bimetallic strip that acts as a closed switch when cold. The circuit is completed when the indicator bulbs are connected to the circuit. This is done by the handlebar switch. Electrical current then flows througth the bulbs illuminating them and also through a wire wound wrapped around the strip heating it up. Because the bimetallic strip is made of two different metals, one metal expands more than the other causing the strip to bend until the switch opens.. Now electrical current no longer flows and the indicator bulbs go out. As the strip is not being heated, it cools down until the switch closes and the cycle is repeated.

Ok, the Vmax inidator unit is a bit smarter in that it takes a signal from the speedo so that the inidcators turn off after a specific time or distance travelled - this is to prevent leaving the indicators flashing when people have forgotten to turn them off.

Anyway, none of that is relevant other than the heating up of the bimetallic strip. The amount of power available to heat it depends on the resistive load of the indicators.

Filament bulbs have a much lower resistance than LED bulbs which means that fitting LED bulbs, less current flows so there is less power to heat the element so it no longer will open or the bulb flash rate changes.

To get around this, a resistor is fitted across the each indicator bulb, as in diagram below. It simiulates a filmament bulb being fitted so needs to be of a reasonably high wattage (23 W is what the manual says but 12 W may work). You would need 4 resistors, one per bulb, or 2resistors, one for each pair of bulbs on the same side.



Trying to find the above diagram, I came across these:
They look like they fit a resistor across the bulbs; separate the connector going to the bulb, connect it to the unit below and the then connect same colour wire goes to the bulb. Do that for both red (power) and black (ground) wires.

You mention there is one wire going to the indicators you have - that would be the positive, the negatvie is grounded to the chassis via the metal indicator stalks.. Unless I've misunderstood. With these, units, you would need to find a suitable earth to connect the black wires to, just find a bolt on the frame, connect the black wires to a ring terminal and connect it with the bolt - you would need to scrape paint off the frame for good electrical contact...... but that should not be necessary as I am sure the Vmax loom has four wires for the indicators; two positves and two earths.

1613084989067.pngb
 
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norcalAF

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An indicator relay works by having a bimetallic strip that acts as a closed switch when cold. The circuit is completed when the indicator bulbs are connected to the circuit. This is done by the handlebar switch. Electrical current then flows througth the bulbs illuminating them and also through a wire wound wrapped around the strip heating it up. Because the bimetallic strip is made of two different metals, one metal expands more than the other causing the strip to bend until the switch opens.. Now electrical current no longer flows and the indicator bulbs go out. As the strip is not being heated, it cools down until the switch closes and the cycle is repeated.

Ok, the Vmax inidator unit is a bit smarter in that it takes a signal from the speedo so that the inidcators turn off after a specific time or distance travelled - this is to prevent leaving the indicators flashing when people have forgotten to turn them off.

Anyway, none of that is relevant other than the heating up of the bimetallic strip. The amount of power available to heat it depends on the resistive load of the indicators.

Filament bulbs have a much lower resistance than LED bulbs which means that fitting LED bulbs, less current flows so there is less power to heat the element so it no longer will open or the bulb flash rate changes.

To get around this, a resistor is fitted across the each indicator bulb, as in diagram below. It simiulates a filmament bulb being fitted so needs to be of a reasonably high wattage (23 W is what the manual says but 12 W may work). You would need 4 resistors, one per bulb, or 2resistors, one for each pair of bulbs on the same side.



Trying to find the above diagram, I came across these:
They look like they fit a resistor across the bulbs; separate the connector going to the bulb, connect it to the unit below and the then connect same colour wire goes to the bulb. Do that for both red (power) and black (ground) wires.

You mention there is one wire going to the indicators you have - that would be the positive, the negatvie is grounded to the chassis via the metal indicator stalks.. Unless I've misunderstood. With these, units, you would need to find a suitable earth to connect the black wires to, just find a bolt on the frame, connect the black wires to a ring terminal and connect it with the bolt - you would need to scrape paint off the frame for good electrical contact...... but that should not be necessary as I am sure the Vmax loom has four wires for the indicators; two positves and two earths.

View attachment 75386b
It's an integrated tail and turn signal set up, the led panel fits over the stock reflector inside the housing of the taillight. There is a plug that fits into one of the two bulb sockets that powers the brake light and I'm assuming acts as a ground for both the brake lights and the turn signals. Then there are two wires, one for each side of the led plate that power the turn signal section of the panel for their respective side. Here is a link to the tail light if it will help:
 

norcalAF

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The led tail light and integrated turns signals function correctly with just me adding those two Wires into the positive sides of the still attached respective stock blinkers connection to the main wiring harness. The stock bulbs still have a connection to both the positive and ground from the wiring harness. I hope I'm providing enough of a visual
 

MaxMidnight

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Filament bulbs have a much lower resistance than LED bulbs which means that fitting LED bulbs, less current flows so there is less power to heat the element so it no longer will open or the bulb flash rate changes.
Are you sure? My understanding is that LED's have a lower resistance than incandescent bulbs (thus the greater efficiency) which is why a ballast resistor is needed to mimic the load normally seen by the flasher unit.

yes they are led, as were the aftermarket signals they replaced. The integrated tail lights only have one wire for each signal side, no ground, just a positive. how would i go about wiring that? just run a grounded resistor off of each? please forgive me, I'm an electrical wiring noob.
'Fraid I don't know the answer to that. My CBR real lamp also has integrated indicators but I retained separate indicators because of a similar issue.
Your suggestion would be worth a try, what could go wrong......?
 

Aces High

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That sounds like a hack job waiting to short or melt something. I’d get rid of the stock signals and swap the stock indicator relay with a quality LED rated one compatible for both incandescent and LED. $20, plug an’ play, you’re done.
I only use relays from these guys, made in the US. Lot of info on their website or call them with any question. Good outfit. Don’t bother with anything cheaper, not all LED relays are equal, ask me how I know. I’m not affiliated btw.
 

norcalAF

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That sounds like a hack job waiting to short or melt something. I’d get rid of the stock signals and swap the stock indicator relay with a quality LED rated one compatible for both incandescent and LED. $20, plug an’ play, you’re done.
I only use relays from these guys, made in the US. Lot of info on their website or call them with any question. Good outfit. Don’t bother with anything cheaper, not all LED relays are equal, ask me how I know. I’m not affiliated btw.
I appreciate the recommendation, and yes I agree the wiring setup that the previous owner had is not even close to optimum, hence my desire to eliminate it.
 

MaxMidnight

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That sounds like a hack job waiting to short or melt something. I’d get rid of the stock signals and swap the stock indicator relay with a quality LED rated one compatible for both incandescent and LED. $20, plug an’ play, you’re done.
Retaining the incandescent bulbs to keep the flash correct rate is not uncommon and should not cause any issues provided it's done neatly. That said I'd prefer to have ballast resistors.

A solid state relay will overcome the problem but at the expense of loosing the self cancelling function.
Not something you miss until it isn't there and you start to realise how many times you forget to turn them off. :oops:
 

02GF74

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Are you sure? My understanding is that LED's have a lower resistance than incandescent bulbs (thus the greater efficiency) which is why a ballast resistor is needed to mimic the load normally seen by the flasher unit.
Yes, what I stated is correct. But are we talking resistance of LEDs or LED lamps?

Light emitting diodes (LED) as you may gathered from the name, are diodes which are semi-conductor devices that allow current to flow in one direction. The voltage /current relationship is non linear when forward biased.

At very low voltage, current is very low so resistance will be high. At a voltage of 0.7v (higher for LEDs), the diode effectivly turns on so large currents will flow and equivalent resistance will be low.

Once turned on, it is difficult to predict the current because for a very small voltage change there will be a large change in the amount of current which would destroy the diode (or led).

To prevent this, and to work at higher voltages, say 12v, a resistance is fitted in series to limit the current and also drops the excess voltage over what is required to turn the LED on. With this resistance series, the overall resistance is much higher than for a filament bulb.

On high power LEDs (referred to as LED emitters), as used in torches, car and motor cycle headlamps, this would be very inefficient so these lamps would have an electronic circuit that supplies a constant current.

So back to LED lamps, as you say, they are more efficient so for the same amount of light output, they draw much less current than filament bulbs and this is what stops the flasher unit from working.

To rectify (no pun intended) a resistor is wired across the bulb. Resistance in parallel lowers the equivalent restance.

To the other poster, yes, an electronic relay can be fitted to flash at a constant rate regardless what type or how many bulbs are fitted but the Vmax loom would need to be hacked as they need a power (12v) supply and the self cancelling feature is lost.

The indicator unit on my Vmax is a bit puzzling as it flashes too fast for what is allowed in UK, and it is not because the lamp wattage is incorrect. I developed a flasher unit that would flash at a constant rate of 1.5x per second regardless of what FILAMENT bulbs are fitted.

I should spend less time on here and develop mk2 version that will work with LED bulbs....

Mk1 version is a direct replacement, fits inside a plastic case from a flasher unit.
DSC_0538-1.jpg
 
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02GF74

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And if anyone is interested in the history of Leds.


BTW the white light leds available aren't really white but emit blue and yellow light (a blue led coated with yellow phosphor)

Because as you know, from dark side of the moon, white light is a combination of light of different colours, (visible spectrum). The yellow and blue light from white leds fools the human eye into thinking it is seeing white light.
 

Aces High

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Retaining the incandescent bulbs to keep the flash correct rate is not uncommon and should not cause any issues provided it's done neatly. That said I'd prefer to have ballast resistors.

A solid state relay will overcome the problem but at the expense of loosing the self cancelling function.
Not something you miss until it isn't there and you start to realise how many times you forget to turn them off. :oops:
Very true. The take away being “done neatly”. Speaking for myself; when it comes to electrical, I don’t trust any of it unless it’s factory or I’ve done the work.
As for the resistors or leaving an extra set of bulbs, they're added links in the chain that could potentially fail. The path of least resistance (no pun intended) is always best. Having an electrical gremlin or ghost in the machine is exhausting.

As far as the self cancelation feature, I’ve never had the pleasure. I’ve developed a tick over the years to randomly check the button every other moment or so, as to have eventually morphed into my own self, self cancelator? Though I can appreciate missing it if I would if gotten used to one.
 

02GF74

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As far as the self cancelation feature, I’ve never had the pleasure. I’ve developed a tick over the years to randomly check the button every other moment or so, as to have eventually morphed into my own self, self cancelator?
So that I never forget, I fitted the audio visual sonic communication system to my helmet.

 

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