starter help ?

[user 16790]

this is not a Vmax problem it is with my YAMAHA MT03 660, I don't know much about electrics and I do not have any electrical measuring devices, I did have a multi meter but I connected it to wrong parts and it got hot and stopped working
so I thought perhaps some of you might be able to give me a clue as to what to check,
sometimes when I press the starter on the MT03 it just gives a 'dut' kind of sound (not a click) and not start but electrics are still ok, it sometimes does this a couple of times and then on the next press it will start up fine, sometimes it will just start ok on first press,
it is something I'd like to figure out just in case one day it will not start at all, thank you

 

[MaxMidnight]

this is not a Vmax problem it is with my YAMAHA MT03 660, I don't know much about electrics and I do not have any electrical measuring devices, I did have a multi meter but I connected it to wrong parts and it got hot and stopped working
so I thought perhaps some of you might be able to give me a clue as to what to check,
sometimes when I press the starter on the MT03 it just gives a 'dut' kind of sound (not a click) and not start but electrics are still ok, it sometimes does this a couple of times and then on the next press it will start up fine, sometimes it will just start ok on first press,
it is something I'd like to figure out just in case one day it will not start at all, thank you

No one can tell you what is causing the problem; we can all guess at what the as to what it is and we may be right or we may be wrong.

This sounds like an opportunity to learn.
The best way to find out what the is causing the issue is to work through the system in a methodical manner. In the long run it will save you time and probably money.

The first thing you need is a wiring diagram and without that you are just pissing in the wind.
Next get a cheap multi meter. It doesn't need to be anything expensive.

Now do some basic knowledge. Think of electricity like water circulating through a pipe - if the pipes aren't connected the water won't flow back to the tank. If there is a kink in the pipe then the flow of the water will be reduced.
The electrickery needs to flow from positive to negative.

Now check the basics. Make sure all the earth points and connections are clean and tight. Check the battery voltage after the bike has sat for several hours - with your multi meter set to volts you should have a reading of something around 12.5 volts. If you have less than that then charge the battery and take the bike for a run.
Re-check after a couple of hours and if the reading is low either you have a battery on the way out or the charging system is dodgy.

Assuming that is OK check that you have +12volts to the solenoid.

If that is OK then you may have an issue with the starter which could be worn out brushes, worn commutator or dead section in the windings.

I can guess at what the problem is but you can see from the points above that there are many things that can cause the problem you describe.
Always start with the basics as in the majority of cases that's where the problem lies and the bottom like is that there is no crystal ball that can give you the answer.

 

[user 16790]

thanks for replying, I did have a multi meter but did it wrong and burnt it out, one day I'll try again, I'll look at the side stand, neutral, clutch switches and the starter solenoid, when I've managed to get another multi meter and learnt how to use it

 

[MaxMidnight]

If it was one of the above then I'd expect that you wouldn't get anything from the starter.
A few threads on using a multi meter here... well when I say a few....

 

[Parminio]

I'm crap with electricity too. I absolutely hate messing with it.

Although, for Christmas, we got my son a couple of Snap Circuit kits. I've learned more about electricity playing with those with him the last couple weeks than I ever knew before.

 

[desert_max]

Been an electrical engineer for 35 years and still sometimes feel like I'm "crap" with electronics.

The good news is that it is a science and follows very specific rules. The problem is finding the issue with something that's not following those rules. Not always an easy task.

You have great guidance above.

 

[Screwloose]

thanks for replying, I did have a multi meter but did it wrong and burnt it out, one day I'll try again, I'll look at the side stand, neutral, clutch switches and the starter solenoid, when I've managed to get another multi meter and learnt how to use it

You guys have helped me out so hopefully I can input back.
I’m an electrical/electronics engineer and there is a difference between these two disciplines, I’ll not go into it just now.

A small bit about test meters if that’s ok.
You will burn your multi-digital test meter out by connecting on the ohms setting and putting the probes over a voltage. Buy a digital test meter that has a specific fuse that blows when you make the above error, then just re-new the fuse. Don’t get me wrong I’ve blown a couple of meters myself over the years.
As for the old analogue multi testers, do not discount them as they normally had that fuse installed and are nearly indestructible.
In general the difference between digital and analogue multi testers is that your digital tester will have a permanent load inside (Meg ohms) where the analogue has has a load depending on voltage load.
So do not throw the old tester out as one day in electronics the tester may be specified and the test load is too high for the digital tester with the permanent load, and blows the digital circuit you are measuring.

Above I see MaxMidnight explaining a simple circuit by water flow, this is exactly what you are taught by people who know the game well. You have the tank up high with pressure (battery) the more tanks (cells) the more pressure (voltage) supplied. The valve is the resistor ( more pressure pushing back against the water flow means more voltage across the resistor valve). The water flow is the current, more voltage means more water flow (current) for the same valve position. It’s also all related to the magic triangle where V=I*R and manipulation of that formula.

I also seen FM putting up something very relevant on test meters is that current flow is generally used to read what the test meter is looking at, then an internal calculation in the meter is performed to show you the results.

I’ll stop there. Hope that helps a bit.

 

[Screwloose]

I lied:

It’s maybe best I add another small piece of info that may help when testing circuits.

What could be wrong in an old circuit is that every connection has the potential of failure and starts to act as a capacitor (condenser I believe in US speak). On mechanical connections it becomes NOT gas (air) tight, meaning current flow is impeded. This comes about mostly by expansion and contraction with heat, or small arcs tearing away at the contact surfaces over time, and more.
So on old connections they must all be cleaned and/or re-soldered etc (solder loses its electrical conducting properties over time). Insulation of cables is a bad one as ’leakage‘ causes arcing and more, but is very difficult to detect at times unless you use a high voltage pressure (voltage) tester generally known as a megger tester. A PAT tester does similar. Having electronic pulses near a cable that the insulation has degraded will upset the pulses due to electrical and magnetic fields interacting with the pulses.
What the above means is that you could have weak connections at places, still show on a test meter that all is good, but load current cannot be carried under working conditions. It’s common.

 

[desert_max]

Not sure how a bad connection could present reactance (capacitance) to the circuit, but more likely - and most often - it'll be resistive in nature and create a voltage drop. Worse in digital circuits, but even on old bikes, once below certain voltage thresholds, which vary depending on the load, stuff stops working.

Either way, we're talking 20 to 40 year old connections that have been exposed to harsh conditions and/or elements and have created a degraded condition. That's always a good place to start - any and ALL connections or point of connection in the circuit. If that all checks good - or more importantly, is MADE good - then begin to turn attention toward components themselves. Of course, that's unless smoke has emanated from the widget in which case, it's broken. Electronics work on smoke. Smoke out = broken.

On the VMax, the quickest way to check the starter is simply to jump across the load terminals of the solenoid under the seat. If the starter engages, the problem is in the control circuit to the solenoid i.e. ignition switch, starter button and clutch and kickstand interlocks.

 

[user 16790]

thanks for taking the time guys but it is still binary code to me, I'll just try cleaning connections,
what confuses me is why one press of the starter does nothing but a dull noise, and then without moving or touching anything else the next press of the starter makes it fire up ok, maybe I have some special demon dirt that is moving in and out of the circuit

 

[desert_max]

Could be a dirty starter button, Julian. Pretty common. Would require careful disassembly and cleaning. Not a bad idea.

 

[chargerblk]

Sounds like burned contact at the commutator ( starter motor ).
Every now and then it stops at a " hard spot " and then when you hit the button you
have a no-go.

 

[Screwloose]

Not sure how a bad connection could present reactance (capacitance) to the circuit, but more likely - and most often - it'll be resistive in nature and create a voltage drop.

Hi desert_max

Just to be clear so we are not side tracked, I'll not go into calculations and theory too deeply as it's hardly a fun subject, and please remember I'm not discounting anyone's abilities or empirical approaches to electrical engineering, it's not me as a person to do that, but I see now and then people using words of reactance rather than resistance and visa-versa (both in ohms). And there are some serious ability engineering dudes on this forum that I get good knowledge from, so just trying to help tidy up a bit as others do on a regular basis.

Capacitance acts on both AC & DC circuits. The circuit in question I believe is DC so there is no reactance as this needs a sinusoid and wavelength in the calculation for XC, resulting in a total circuit impedance calculation Z.

A poor connection (dirt, arcing, I.E. not gas tight) on a DC circuit will produce a build up of negative and positive charges each side of the connection, resulting in a potential difference across the joint (started as a resistance but ended as a gap with possible arcing and plasma). There is now an un-wanted component in the circuit that has stored energy in it ready to release, and unfortunately has heat also.

Thanks, and I'll leave it there.

 

[VMAXXIMUM]

Following two experts in a technical discussion is both bewildering and fascinating equal measure. You both seem mature enough not to let this devolve into hurt feelings and name calling. Thank you

 

[Parminio]

On the VMax, the quickest way to check the starter is simply to jump across the load terminals of the solenoid under the seat. If the starter engages, the problem is in the control circuit to the solenoid i.e. ignition switch, starter button and clutch and kickstand interlocks.

Used to check old cars the same way. Ford was easiest because the solenoid was right there on the fender under the hood.

 

[desert_max]

Following two experts in a technical discussion is both bewildering and fascinating equal measure. You both seem mature enough not to let this devolve into hurt feelings and name calling. Thank you

and furthermore... (just kidding)

It's often been said that "there comes a time in every project to simply shoot the engineer and get on with the real work".

For sure, the one thing we all agree on is that old, dirty, corroded connections are a bad thing. And it's not always immediately obvious to the eye. In Julian's case here, the dirt/corrosion could be in the starter button itself. They all do it. That button has a hard life.

 

[desert_max]

...by the way. I just realized that the engine in Julian's MT03 660 is the same engine (very close) I had in an '05 Yamaha Raptor quad. Bought that thing new when the boys were small. They had Blasters. We tore up some desert trails on those things. Came closer to getting killed on that 660 Raptor than any street bike.

Big, torquey thumpers.

Hope you get yours sorted pretty quickly. Fettle around with it. It's only a machine.

 

[user 16790]

it looks like I'll be getting 'furloughed' from next week so I will have time to check things out better, I'll be making a new silencer set up anyway, by the way the battery and starter solenoid are just behind the headstock under the tank on this bike, if I 'jump' something across the solenoid terminals does the ignition switch need to be on ?, not sure if it would give an accurate indication though as the 'no start' thing is very intermittent, as in - if I try the start button and it doesn't turn over and then try jumping the solenoid which does make it turn over, it may well have turned over on the next starter button press anyway,
a constant electric problem is probably easier to find even for a rubbish electrics person like me, it gave no issues on my last few rides but that paranoia ghost rides along with me

 

[MaxMidnight]

If I 'jump' something across the solenoid terminals does the ignition switch need to be on ?, not sure if it would give an accurate indication though as the 'no start' thing is very intermittent, as in - if I try the start button and it doesn't turn over and then try jumping the solenoid which does make it turn over, it may well have turned over on the next starter button press anyway,
a constant electric problem is probably easier to find even for a rubbish electrics person like me, it gave no issues on my last few rides but that paranoia ghost rides along with me

If it consistently works OK from jumping the solenoid but not on the button then that would suggest to me an issue with that circuit or another that can affect starting e.g. sude stand cut out (if it has that).
I would start be cleaning up the starter button contacts and if you still have an issue then it is down to checking multi-plugs and damaged wiring.

But from what you say about how the issue manifests then I would I would lean towards brushes or commutator.

 

[Parminio]

it looks like I'll be getting 'furloughed' from next week

I'm very sorry to hear that. It's a rough time for the whole planet.

On the bright side, at least your government takes care of its people to a far, far better extent than ours does.