Venture and Vmax Swingarm comparison?

[great white]

I have a 1200 Venture and I'm in the process of doing a 17" radial swap. I'm grafting the venture center hub in to a ZX7 rim and am at the very early stages. Unlike most Venture touring bikes, mine spends a fair amount of time on twisty fast roads and I like draggin' aluminum and steel in the corners. I also have converted nearly every bias ply bike I've ever owned to radials and have always been very happy with the results.

But I'm running into issues during the mock up with getting a 17/5.50 rim with a 170/70R17 tire to clear and be on center track.

The venture has a "notch" in it from the factory:

But it's not enough to clear the 170 or the 17" rim and ends up being roughly 1/2" offset. Most of it was the notch not going back far enough to clear the 17" rim and that part was easily dealt with, but the 170 was also a bit wide and required a deeper notch by about 1/4" to eliminate the rest of the offset.

So here's where I am with it now:

Looks like I cut out a lot, but it was a pretty small slice:

Problem is, with the factory notch it's close to the driveshaft. With the 1/4" more it's probably going to be uncomfortably close once plated back in. I have to install the diff and driveshaft to know how close it will actually be. That's the next step.

So a couple questions:

1. Is the Vmax swingarm that much different than the Venture's other than the monoshock design? The Vmax notched swingarms don't look nearly as notched as even a stock Venture notch. Maybe someone has had them side by side (probably not many of those guys out there) and can comment. I;m just wondering if I'm missing a method of getting the wheel centered to track and not notching the swingarm.

2. I see guys talking about how they can get a 170/180 with just a washer swap. Are they just accepting a large rear wheel offset or again, am I missing a trick?

3. Lastly, does anyone know how much the driveshaft deflects under load? Accel or decel? Basically, how close can I get the swingarm tube to the driveshaft without risking contact?

Asking on the Venture boards is kinda pointless as they don't really get into this type of modifications and don't have any real interest anyways (mostly interested in radios, tires or "farkles"). I thought I'd ask on a VMax board as it's not an uncommon modification here and there are some close family ties between the Venture and the VMax so there might be method or two I'm missing that might work on the Venture.

The bike is going to be pretty much Vmax from airbox to final drive (Vboost, heads, rear diff, etc) when done and I want a wheel and tire that can keep up. A slightly smaller wheel diameter isn't a problem either (loosing a little less than an inch in overall diameter), it's getting a 2002 Royal Star Venture transmission which is pretty much the deep 5th overdrive some shops offer. If it's still too low geared, I'll just swap the Venture rear diff back in.

Converting the rear of this bike is a major PITA. Hopefully the front will go easier.

 

[leroycp]

Notched and braced from Morleys muscle. Washer swap and 200 tire. Luv it! Send him an email.

 

[great white]

Thanks, but I'm building it rather than buying it.

Nothing I haven't done before on other bikes.

170 is more than enough for my use.

 

[MaxMidnight]

My Max accommodates a 180 Bridgestone on a 17" Dymag with the washer swap. On that basis I would have thought that a 170 would not be an issue.

If you haven't sent the wheel for modification yet would it be possible for you to bolt on the final drive (it Isn't a diff!) so as to offer the wheel up?
That would show you what clearance there is with a Max rim. You could then establish what is needed for the extra 1" diameter and width of the ZX rim.

 

[Fire-medic]

You only need an eighth-inch clearance to the tire from the swingarm.

 

[one2dmax]

Largest we were able to squeeze in the Venture Max we built was a 180/55-18 on a Carrozzeria 18x5.5" wheel. It did require notching, bracket, modification to the brake stuff, and we also used the Vmax diff (we had vmax 1-4 gears and RSTD 5th gear for our overdrive).

We typically leave about 1/16" clearance on our notch work (you can tape up your driveshaft to build up the OD a little, and put the metal against that as you weld it back in - then remove the tape of course when done).

The 180 did still rub on other parts of the chassis with a passenger on the rear (didn't rub with a single rider).

 

[bumper]

Wow I have to look when I get home, I am thinking I have a 190 on the kossman wheel that I have in the venture swingarm on my build. I used the venture swingarm bearings and vmax bolts with a bushing. Swingarm came off a 2000 venture. It's 1 3/8" longer. Max swingarm is 7 lbs something, venture is 14lbs something. I'll post some pictures tonight if I get a chance.

 

[Specs95t]

Has anyone tried to put a venture swing arm on a VMax? If it fits, would it work like a braced swing arm to reduce the flex?


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[bumper]

Yes it fits, but there is some welding and such that needs tó be done, its not a plug and play process. And I currently have a 190 /50 -17 metzler on my max and the swingarm is not notched. That's an 86 vmax frame with the 2000 venture swingarm. At twice the weight its much thicker and stronger. Mine is not braced and I don't feel that the swingarm twists on my 1300 like the stock one on my 85 max.

 

[Specs95t]

Awesome!
It appears that the minor welding you mention has to do with picking up the existing connections for hanging the brake caliper. Looking at your side by side pic, it looks like the driveshaft tunnel is longer. Did you have to do something there as well?



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[bumper]

I used the venture shaft, the swingarm is 1 3/8" longer than the vmax. I reused the max caliper. You need to weld a shock mount and caliper brace arm mount and then I used both vmax adjustable bolts for the swingarm bearing and also used the venture bearings.Vmax bolts need a bushing on the end. Hint.... MACS hardware.

 

[Specs95t]

Since the swing arm is a bit longer and the bottom shock mount locations are now further from the swing arm pivot point, you end up with a lower rear stance, since the rear shock length remains unchanged, the overall ride height in the back goes lower. I may very well go this way with mine instead of a braced swing arm.


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[bumper]

I went with a longer shock, but yes it's lowers the rear.

 

[great white]

Largest we were able to squeeze in the Venture Max we built was a 180/55-18 on a Carrozzeria 18x5.5" wheel. It did require notching, bracket, modification to the brake stuff, and we also used the Vmax diff (we had vmax 1-4 gears and RSTD 5th gear for our overdrive).

We typically leave about 1/16" clearance on our notch work (you can tape up your driveshaft to build up the OD a little, and put the metal against that as you weld it back in - then remove the tape of course when done).

The 180 did still rub on other parts of the chassis with a passenger on the rear (didn't rub with a single rider).

Perfect Sean, just the info I was looking for. Thank you.

I wasn't sure how much clearance I would need for the shaft. At 1/16" and good, I'm assuming there's nearly no deflection under load. Since 170 is as big as I'm going, I might be able to sneak a bit more clearamce for my own peace of mind.

Do you remember if the Venture you built had any offset on the rear wheel? I'm shooting for zero offset:

(That's just a junk 170 tire I'm using for mock up on the zx rim)

I want zero since this isn't going to be just a stright line hauler, I want it to turn and "flick" (if you can use that term with any 800 lb bike!) as easily as it goes.

If you had some offset and I don't, that might explain why it looks so bloody close in mock up.

I'm also might have a tad more clearance than I think as that tire is completely flat. Only holds air briefly since its so ratched.

I'm also going to have to do some work on the plastic inner fender. Rubs slightly while up on the center stand so its going to rub worse under even just the bikes weight. I'm probably going to section it and plastic weld in and inch or so piece. Should give lots of cleatance. Even with zero offset.

My 83 is getting a complete 2002 royal star Venture transmission and a VMax rear diff. Pretty much a poor man's 5th overdrive modification. Side bonus is I get the new shift drum with the machined pin retainer. New shift forks and shafts too.

I may end up going back to the Venture diff as the 17" is about an inch less in diameter than the oem. It'll all depend on if I like where the rpms fall in normal use.

Thanks again for the info.

Just invaluable.

Cheers

 

[Traumahawk]

Something to consider. On the RC wheels which are aftermarket radial wheels for the Vmax, to make them fit properly, there is approx 1/4 inch of offset to the right ground into the wheel. I have one, and really love it, with NO issues with turning, wearing of the tire....etc.

So.....if there is no room on the left side, you can see about putting in a bit of offset to the right, and see if that will give you some room.

 

[Traumahawk]

Something to consider. On the RC wheels which are aftermarket radial wheels for the Vmax, to make them fit properly, there is approx 1/4 inch of offset to the right ground into the wheel. I have one, and really love it, with NO issues with turning, wearing of the tire....etc.

So.....if there is no room on the left side, you can see about putting in a bit of offset to the right, and see if that will give you some room.

 

[one2dmax]

Exactly, The OEM does have some offset which most will never feel.

 

[bumper]

Here is a very good write up on the reason for the offset and how to align the frame. Might help you some.
I think they offset the wheel for the crown in the road. The offset helps the bike to trail better on the highway.
http://www.motorcycle.com/how-to/chassis-alignment-basics-3444.html

Another good one

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=78&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CE0QFjAHOEZqFQoTCJL_-8yv9MgCFU7aYwoddTQMGw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fbikearama.com%2Ftheory%2Fmotorcycle-rake-trail-explained%2F&usg=AFQjCNHr4wBWofb5941XQs6tSKY1-keD5Q

Just a foot note: anybody thinking of doing venture swingarm mod, the swingarm has to come from a 1999 or newer venture. Dont know all the details but the older one is different. I am sure Sean can give the info on that.

 

[great white]

Here is a very good write up on the reason for the offset and how to align the frame. Might help you some.
I think they offset the wheel for the crown in the road. The offset helps the bike to trail better on the highway.
http://www.motorcycle.com/how-to/chassis-alignment-basics-3444.html

Another good one

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...ained/&usg=AFQjCNHr4wBWofb5941XQs6tSKY1-keD5Q

Just a foot note: anybody thinking of doing venture swingarm mod, the swingarm has to come from a 1999 or newer venture. Dont know all the details but the older one is different. I am sure Sean can give the info on that.

Interesting reads....

 

[Specs95t]

Mod Monkey strikes again!

Just ordered a '07 Venture swingarm and driveshaft - looks like I have a winter project to keep me busy!