Bike dies at speed

[kdinkelman]

Posted this in the motor section under someone else's thread and haven't received much for suggestions. Thought that I would start a new one under electrical.

Wife and I went out on our Maxes on Saturday. I did not notice any issues on the way to lunch. The drive back home was another story. After we rode for 30-40 miles, I started getting on it hard from a stop. Pulling hard in 2nd gear and the bike died completely. Pulled in the clutch and tried the starter. Nothing at all. Pulled over to the side of the road and tried it a couple of more times. Bike starts back up. Tear back out onto the highway again and she dies again. This time several hits on the starter don't do anything. Pull over turn the key off and back on a couple of times. Hit the starter 2-3 more times and she fires back up. I'm not sure if the headlight is working when the bike dies, but I know that the neutral light was as I remember shifting into neutral one of the times I coasted to the side. I take it easy the rest of the 15-20 miles home and didn't try to replicate the problem.

A little background. This is an '86. Had some starting issues late last year that I thought were due to an old battery (7-8 year old PC680). Go to work with no problem. Hop on to leave and the bike won't start. Push start it and make it home. Battery is low on charge. Connect the charger overnight and it works for a few days to a week or two before the problem re-occurs. Picked up a new battery and it is fine for a couple of weeks before the problem starts back up. Figured that it was an intermittent charging issue. From then until a couple of weeks ago, every time I got home, I connected up the charger and have it do a battery check. If the battery is 100% charged, I disconnected it. If not, I charged it. Oh, yeah, the crimp fix was done around the time I put in the original PC680.

A couple of weeks ago, I pulled off the side cover and pulled the pickup coils off and put them and a Venture stator that I picked up off of ebay into a freshly chromed cover. At the same time, I put in an R1 regulator. This work fixed the charging issue. 14.25 - 14.3 volts from idle on up! Love that Mod...

Rode it another 100 miles Saturday evening/night and cruising at steady speeds of 55 and 75 in 5th and it will cut out for less than a second. Probably did that 6 - 8 times during that 100 miles. The lights do not go out when ignition cuts out.

Here is what I have done so far. Cleaned and re-seated the pickup coil connector. Replaced the kill / starter switch wiring harness with a spare. Took apart the ignition key switch and cleaned it. Pulled rear coils off and checked and reseated all of the connectors in that area. Pulled all (except for Main) fuses out and sprayed contact cleaner into block.

Possibly the pickup coils? I was thinking that the Pre '93 had a pair of them. I assumed (I know, never ass-u-me) that if one of them went out, the bike should still fire on a pair of cylinders.

Any other suggestions? Thanks for any and all help!!

 

[maleko89]

Kent, take a good look at the key switch connector. Start the bike up and wiggle that connector to see if it cuts out. On my old '89, I removed that connector and and soldered those 3 wires. Another thing to try.....start bike, let it warm up and wiggle the p/u coil connector. Check your main fuse box too and next time it cuts and won't start see if lights are on yet. If so, it isn't the main fuse.

 

[jfeagins]

Is there any possibility it is running outta gas up top end on you?

 

[kdinkelman]

I don't believe that it is fuel / carb related.

When the bike dies, rpm's drop to 0 and hitting the starter button doesn't do anything. This would lead me to think along Mark's line of though about the main fuse / ignition key switch. That is one of the reasons I took apart the key switch and cleaned it up. I'll try Mark's suggestions this evening and see if either of those look like they might be the problem.

Mark, do you have some free time this week to come over if that doesn't solve the problem? Saturday is out between a picnic for the balloon club and an 8-ball tournament, but I should be able to make about any other time available.

 

[maleko89]

Kent, I'll be out of town this weekend but should be able to stop by some evening this week. Wednesday night is probably out since I have kick ball league.

 

[Rollie]

Kent, I'll be out of town this weekend but should be able to stop by some evening this week. Wednesday night is probably out since I have kick ball league.

What position do you play ?

 

[jfeagins]

What position do you play ?

..as long as they aren't using him for the ball. :biglaugh:

 

[maleko89]

LoL, pitcher or left field usually. 3rd position would be sitting on the beer cooler.

 

[Miles Long]

Rode it another 100 miles Saturday evening/night and cruising at steady speeds of 55 and 75 in 5th and it will cut out for less than a second. Probably did that 6 - 8 times during that 100 miles. The lights do not go out when ignition cuts out.

Here is what I have done so far. Cleaned and re-seated the pickup coil connector. Replaced the kill / starter switch wiring harness with a spare. Took apart the ignition key switch and cleaned it. Pulled rear coils off and checked and reseated all of the connectors in that area. Pulled all (except for Main) fuses out and sprayed contact cleaner into block.

Possibly the pickup coils? I was thinking that the Pre '93 had a pair of them. I assumed (I know, never ass-u-me) that if one of them went out, the bike should still fire on a pair of cylinders.

Any other suggestions? Thanks for any and all help!![/QUOTE]
I'm looking over the Clymer wiring diagram, for 85-92 model bikes.
If you have any lights at all, when the bike has cut out, the battery-ignition switch circuit is working. All lights with the exception of the headlight and the signals are fused via the main , with the key at the on position.
If you don't have a headlight or signals, or horn, power is not reaching the fuse box, via the brown wire from the ignition switch.
If you have all of the above, then all is well from the battery to the fuse box.
The ignition system originates at the fuse box. Although it may look good, I would put in a new ignition fuse, then disconnect the stop (kill) switch connector, and check for power at the red and white wire, (with the ignition switch on, of course) Then do the same for the headlight fuse, which also is the supply to the starter switch. Check for power to the orange/yellow wire.
Youv'e replaced the wiring harness, but have you disassembled and cleaned the contacts in both the kill and starter switches? You could just check for proper operation by metering the contacts, BUT you have an "intermittant" problem. The switches may meter fine, but a switch may have a poor contact under load/vibration conditions, when the bike is at speed.
Assuming (there's that word again), you do all this, and all appears fine -
both the kill and starter switches are channeled thru the relay unit.
Clean the ground wire connection for the relay.
Another item that can kill all power is the side stand circuit. Clean the switch contacts, the connector, then meter for proper operation. Then clean the side stand relay connector. This item was eliminated from '93 on. If this sucker is misbehavin', no power will get to the ignitor or the ignition coils.
Just a few things to check, all easy. Keep us informed, especially if you find the root cause of your problem. This helps everybody.
Cheers, Miles

 

[kdinkelman]

Update:

I've been riding since Wednesday evening of last week with no problems! I though that I would take Miles' advice and post my findings.

I did have power to the lights when the ignition failed, so I didn't think that it would be the ignition switch. However I removed it and cleaned it again for good measure. I also removed the starter / kill switches and cleaned them again.

I removed all of the fuses and hit the contacts with some fine sandpaper and contact cleaner. Also re-arranged fuses so that they were not in the original locations.

Started focusing on the side stand switch and relay. Cleaned contacts to these and verified that the side stand was indeed activating the relay.

Through the whole process, I noticed that one of my throttle cables was not in the "groove" in the carb rack. Since I have braided throttle cables, it was easier to remove them to re-route the cable. I figured I hadn't had them out in a couple of years, so they could probably use some cleaning while I had them out. Took them apart and used the HF ultrasonic cleaner on them. Re-assembled them and went to put them back on the engine.

Well, when putting them back in, I had to shift the wiring harness that runs along the right side frame tube slightly. Sparks made me jump!! I was really glad that there was no gas in the carbs at that time. So, I clip the zip tie that is holding the harness to the frame and I find a spot where the harness cover has worn through and is exposing the wires. (I guess that 25 years and 60K + miles can do that) The insulation is worn through a tiny spot on one of the wires!!! (I didn't look to see what the color was). Conductor didn't look to be damaged, so I re-wrapped several layers of electrical tape over the area as well as another spot that looked a little worn.

Well, I put everything back together and fired her up. Let her warm up and synced the carbs. Took the bike out and rode it like I stole it. No issues at all!!!!

While it could have been a problem with one of the switches / relays, I think that the short to the frame was the cause of my problems.

Thank you to Mark and Miles for their helpful advice! I also thank my scope creep / minor ADD for stumbling across the short.

 

[Miles Long]

Well, when putting them back in, I had to shift the wiring harness that runs along the right side frame tube slightly. Sparks made me jump!! I was really glad that there was no gas in the carbs at that time. So, I clip the zip tie that is holding the harness to the frame and I find a spot where the harness cover has worn through and is exposing the wires. (I guess that 25 years and 60K + miles can do that) The insulation is worn through a tiny spot on one of the wires!!! (I didn't look to see what the color was). Conductor didn't look to be damaged, so I re-wrapped several layers of electrical tape over the area as well as another spot that looked a little worn.

Well, I put everything back together and fired her up. Let her warm up and synced the carbs. Took the bike out and rode it like I stole it. No issues at all!!!!

While it could have been a problem with one of the switches / relays, I think that the short to the frame was the cause of my problems.

Thank you to Mark and Miles for their helpful advice! I also thank my scope creep / minor ADD for stumbling across the short.[/QUOTE]

Kent -
Regardless of what the shrinks may say, OCD/ADD conditions are a definite advantage, at least when it comes to troubleshooting and preventive maintenance.
Glad your bike is now healed!
About the wiring harness short that you discovered - could you describe approximately the location where it was found, on the right side? Fore or aft, near a protrusion of some sort?
The reason I ask (my own OCD kicking in here), is that there are many 85-92 maxes still operating, all with (presumably) identical wiring harnesses,
these bikes all came off the same assembly line, maybe all the wiring harnesses installed by the same deft Japanese fingers.........could many of these other Maxes have that same wiring short condition, or are about to have?
Anyone that has followed this form for some time no doubt has drawn the same conclusion as me - the bikes share similar strengths, but many of the problems are identical. For example, I just had a wiring problem that others have experienced - a ignition switch connector that was shorting internally.
Perhaps if you can nail down the location of the harness problem, others will take the time to check out the same location on their bikes, especially when they have the airbox removed for carb servicing.
Thanks in advance!

 

[94 V-Max Rider]

Posted this in the motor section under someone else's thread and haven't received much for suggestions. Thought that I would start a new one under electrical.

Wife and I went out on our Maxes on Saturday. I did not notice any issues on the way to lunch. The drive back home was another story. After we rode for 30-40 miles, I started getting on it hard from a stop. Pulling hard in 2nd gear and the bike died completely. Pulled in the clutch and tried the starter. Nothing at all. Pulled over to the side of the road and tried it a couple of more times. Bike starts back up. Tear back out onto the highway again and she dies again. This time several hits on the starter don't do anything. Pull over turn the key off and back on a couple of times. Hit the starter 2-3 more times and she fires back up. I'm not sure if the headlight is working when the bike dies, but I know that the neutral light was as I remember shifting into neutral one of the times I coasted to the side. I take it easy the rest of the 15-20 miles home and didn't try to replicate the problem.

A little background. This is an '86. Had some starting issues late last year that I thought were due to an old battery (7-8 year old PC680). Go to work with no problem. Hop on to leave and the bike won't start. Push start it and make it home. Battery is low on charge. Connect the charger overnight and it works for a few days to a week or two before the problem re-occurs. Picked up a new battery and it is fine for a couple of weeks before the problem starts back up. Figured that it was an intermittent charging issue. From then until a couple of weeks ago, every time I got home, I connected up the charger and have it do a battery check. If the battery is 100% charged, I disconnected it. If not, I charged it. Oh, yeah, the crimp fix was done around the time I put in the original PC680.

A couple of weeks ago, I pulled off the side cover and pulled the pickup coils off and put them and a Venture stator that I picked up off of ebay into a freshly chromed cover. At the same time, I put in an R1 regulator. This work fixed the charging issue. 14.25 - 14.3 volts from idle on up! Love that Mod...

Rode it another 100 miles Saturday evening/night and cruising at steady speeds of 55 and 75 in 5th and it will cut out for less than a second. Probably did that 6 - 8 times during that 100 miles. The lights do not go out when ignition cuts out.

Here is what I have done so far. Cleaned and re-seated the pickup coil connector. Replaced the kill / starter switch wiring harness with a spare. Took apart the ignition key switch and cleaned it. Pulled rear coils off and checked and reseated all of the connectors in that area. Pulled all (except for Main) fuses out and sprayed contact cleaner into block.

Possibly the pickup coils? I was thinking that the Pre '93 had a pair of them. I assumed (I know, never ass-u-me) that if one of them went out, the bike should still fire on a pair of cylinders.

Any other suggestions? Thanks for any and all help!!

Being a 1986 model, your bike has a pair of pick-up coils. The trick here is to catch it in the failure mode and then determine if it's a primary or secondary ignition problem.

Here goes:.

As soon as it dies, have 4 spark plugs ready and immediately pull all four plug wires and install the spark plugs. Check for spark at the number 1-4 and 2-4 ignition sets. If neither set is firing, I'd start looking at the TCI unit.

If you have spark at one set and not the other, it's most likely a pick-up coil.

If only one coil on either set is firing, but not the other, that's indicates a secondary ignition failure. Not likely, but possible.

I assume this only happens when the bike is hot, in which case it sounds like what's called a transient heat problem. Just to eliminate any confusion, I'd make sure all the chassis grounds are clean and tight, and have resistance to ground.

Chasing electrical ghosts is the absolute worst thing to have to deal with in my opinion. Good luck.

 

[95spfldmax]

Update:

I've been riding since Wednesday evening of last week with no problems! I though that I would take Miles' advice and post my findings.

I did have power to the lights when the ignition failed, so I didn't think that it would be the ignition switch. However I removed it and cleaned it again for good measure. I also removed the starter / kill switches and cleaned them again.

I removed all of the fuses and hit the contacts with some fine sandpaper and contact cleaner. Also re-arranged fuses so that they were not in the original locations.

Started focusing on the side stand switch and relay. Cleaned contacts to these and verified that the side stand was indeed activating the relay.

Through the whole process, I noticed that one of my throttle cables was not in the "groove" in the carb rack. Since I have braided throttle cables, it was easier to remove them to re-route the cable. I figured I hadn't had them out in a couple of years, so they could probably use some cleaning while I had them out. Took them apart and used the HF ultrasonic cleaner on them. Re-assembled them and went to put them back on the engine.

Well, when putting them back in, I had to shift the wiring harness that runs along the right side frame tube slightly. Sparks made me jump!! I was really glad that there was no gas in the carbs at that time. So, I clip the zip tie that is holding the harness to the frame and I find a spot where the harness cover has worn through and is exposing the wires. (I guess that 25 years and 60K + miles can do that) The insulation is worn through a tiny spot on one of the wires!!! (I didn't look to see what the color was). Conductor didn't look to be damaged, so I re-wrapped several layers of electrical tape over the area as well as another spot that looked a little worn.

Well, I put everything back together and fired her up. Let her warm up and synced the carbs. Took the bike out and rode it like I stole it. No issues at all!!!!

While it could have been a problem with one of the switches / relays, I think that the short to the frame was the cause of my problems.

Thank you to Mark and Miles for their helpful advice! I also thank my scope creep / minor ADD for stumbling across the short.

I love it when a plan comes together.......glad to hear you found a "real" problem and corrected it.....Keep putting miles on it and when we don't hear anymore about it for a week or two, we'll know that was definately it......enjoy.....the summer's going fast......

 

[95spfldmax]

...i'm interested in the harness location as well....i've got an '86 parts bike.......