Electrical problem

[wildweasel_pt]

Hi all

I have a problem that is driving me crazy. I have no ignition switch i have a regular switch that colses a master relay that allows from teh voltage to go from the battery to the fuse box, the only hot circuit is the starter relay power wire. After i did my rebuild i got a problem that i cannot identify. It happened a couple times already and its random (i think). My 10 Amp fuse that feeds the coils blows while riding. First time it blew after i pulled over to do a oill level check when i started the bike it idled for 2/3 seconds and died, i replaced the fuse and all of them died on spot without turning the engine even. I thought it had to do with a faulty RR and disconnected it came home with battery only and the bike died arriving home again.
I rode a few miles this past couple weekends with no issues. Today on the eve of a big rally i want to go to it started to give me shit. I was rolling and it died again, i replaced the fuse rode for another 100 yards and it blew again. Pulled over and called my dad to come up with a handfull of fuses so i could come back home. I replaced the fuse again and rode home for another 5 miles, no issues... What the hell is going on here, do i have gremlins??? LOL
My harness isn't stock adn when the fuse burns i stop feeding the coils and the bike dies, if i push the start button it doesn't turn. If i have the kill switch off the engine usually turns but doesn't fire, with the fuse blown it doesn't turn. I am assuming that i have some kind of short on the right control by the kill switch do you agree? The starter circuit is on the hot circuit (i mean the red thick power lead not the control one actuated by the start switch). I haven't checked the wiring because i would have to disassemble and strip all the tape from the wirings but when the fuse blows i lose my ability to crank the engine by start button i assum the problem should be by the kill/start switch right? The kill switch is supposed to kill the 12v to the coils right? Im getting confused and disappointed... Any input from the electrical wizzes? Thank you

 

[ninjaneer]

How much of the harness isnt stock? Kind of hard for me to visualize without being able to reference the schematic--I need visual aids

Regards from my Taptalking Hercules Android

 

[wildweasel_pt]

Mostly some periferics were removed like sidestand switch/relay and i have a nitrous electrical circuit as well that is wired through the horn but that is not the culprit, it uses a DPDT switch to cancel the horn primary function and turn it into a trigger switch and the fuse has been removed so noproblem on there. Mostly the primary functions are working as supposed to.
Now i know i should have made a sketch of the wiring when i had that thing disassembled....

 

[ninjaneer]

without analyzing your details in depth, my initial thought is that you have a loose wire that is banging around and shorting out the 10-Amp circuit. well no shit, right? the best that i can come up with is to trace down that gremlin (yep you've got a gremlin) by looking at all of the length of all of the wires relying on the 10-amp fuse. i'll come back with some more useless advice after thinking about it more and overlaying your mods onto a stock schematic.

 

[wildweasel_pt]

Thanks Greg

I need to pull my multimeter and check what hanging on that fuse. The problem is that its an intermittent malfunction. I don't know why but im leaning to a right side control switches housing problem. Im gonna disassemble that and take a look. I think tomorrow im riding with a handful of fuses on my pocket... LOL
I don't agree on the loose wire. I rode on cobblestone and no issueas and when i got into asphalt it died, i don't see the vibration being a problem. One thing i thought about. Problem with coils not within specs with lower resistance and increasing current blowing the fuse, but if that were to be the case that would be all the time and not intermittent. Can it be the Ignitech TCI? It controls the coils. I didn't check the programming when i got it from Gary (i wasn't able to get the COM port running well but the engine fired properly so i didn't care about it further) but its supposed to be loaded with stock figures for a stock bike and i was running a stock TCI so i don't see how that can be aproblem unless it was wrongly programmed regarding dwell figures... Any input?

 

[ninjaneer]

this problem just started happening, right? if it were the TCI then i would think that it is dying--it should just run like clock-work, right? ok, so i agree with you that the problem isn't a loose wire rubbing up on the 10-amp line because of the vibrations that a cobblestone road would cause. Do you have COPs or blocks? sounds like you're running COPs. Hold on a sec, I recall reading about a guy who kept blowing his 10-amp fuse after putting in COPs. I can't remember what he did about it. It'll take a while to find the thread.

 

[wildweasel_pt]

Cool for that recall, let me know. Im running Dyna coils. the green ones. I can measure their resistance but i assume if that were to be the problem it would be conctant and not intermitent. Can an arc from one coil to the frame cause the fuse to burn? My front coils are touching eachother, the middle iron bar (the one that creates the induced load by electromagnetism) are lined up touching eachoter where tehy bolt to the frame but i don't see how that can be a problem as well becasue theres no voltage on there just magnetic field. Can one be affecting the other causing disruptions on the electromagnetic field and causing load peaks?
Another thing. I don't think its wiring problem because i stripped all the wiring loom and retaped everything up and saw no issues... Does anyone have a schematic for the TCI connectors? which is each wire on both connectors?

 

[wildweasel_pt]

Ok new updates after checking wiring schematics and some testing... It seems the bike has stock wiring regarding this part with some special features in which i need your opinion.
Things i noticed by testing:

The SIGNAL fuse feeds the fuelpump when engine is running because when i removed that fuse the bike died a few minutes later due fuel starvation (i had already noticed that when i had to come home with the RR disconnected and i tried to shutdown everything i could to save battery). After i get the SIGNAL fuse in place and turn the bike on again the fuelpump clacks again, and it shouldn't because the engine was just shut off, in this case died for fuel starvation so the fuel lines and carb bowls are empty so it clacks again, thats how i confirmed that the Signal fuse interferes with fuelpump operation and i think it shouldn't.

The IGNITION fuse feeds the coils and the fuelpump relay as its supposed to (fuelpump relay is on for 5 seconds and off after to prime the fuel lines and carb bowls for startup, the typical fuelpump clacking when turning the bike on). And after i let it die for starvation removing the SIGNAL fuse if i remove the IGNITION fuse and turn the bike on the fuelpump doesn't clack (its supposed to, same as leaving the kill switch in OFF).

I came to the conclusion that the fuelpump gets power through fuelpump relay and IGNITION fuse when priming and after engine is running it gets power from the SIGNAL fuse (i don't know why but if i remove the SIGNAL fuse it will die of fuel starvation). I'd like to try and remove the IGNITION fuse to see if the fuelpump would run just hanging on the SIGNAL fuse but i can't because if i remove the IGNITION fuse the coils will die and i get no spark to plugs and bike dies.

My problem is that i get a random IGNITION fuse burn every so often and im leaning to having a problem with the fuelpump that burns the IGNITION fuse through the fuelpump relay. Another option but i think is more fairfetched is a problem with the diode block connection to the fuelpump relay and fuel level sensor. ANother thing that makes me lean towards the fuelpump short is that about a year ago i has a situation in which the bike died on me while riding and after stoped it would start but the fuelpump clacked always when i was turning the bike back on. That never happened and it burned no fuse back then but this problem may have the same origin but now its worse and keeps burning my IGNITION switch. This is just me thinking out loud for you guys to have an idea of whats going on on this melted brain of mine... Let me know what you think... I need some sympathy... LOL :bang head:

 

[ninjaneer]

electrically speaking, the schematics show that there IS a legitimate relationship between the fuel pump relay and the SIGNAL fuse, which is the tachometer. Incidentally the gray tach line also feeds the ignition control block and one of the coils. with that being said, i don't think that the fuel pump is the problem, well not based on your experiments, nor does this exonerate it either. i hate to shoot holes without offering plugs, but studying the schematics shows that your problem can be anything.

when you said you verified the wiring, do you mean just the immediate lines going to the coils? because a short could also be anything attached to the KILL and the FUEL RESERVE switches.

 

[wildweasel_pt]

I opened up the switch housing and saw no problems inside, no corrosion or broken or stripped wires, that was my first move... One thing puzzles me as well, why is that when the ignition fuse burns i loose my starter? It doesn't turn and it has nothing to do with the ignition fuse.

 

[ninjaneer]

I keep forgetting to ask, I've been basing my observations on a US/Canada schematic. Is your '90 or '98 US/Canada or Europe?

Anyways in either case, The IGNITION fuse feeds the KILL switch. The KILL switch feeds the STARTER CIRCUIT CUT-OFF relay. The SCCO relay feeds your STARTER relay.

So after the KILL switch is the FUEL PUMP relay and the V-BOOST control unit. Those can be suspect as well as their connective wires and the other devices feeding them. This includes the FUEL RESERVE switch, the FUEL LEVEL sensor, the FUEL PUMP, the tachometer.

After the FUEL RESERVE switch is the FUEL PUMP relay. This can be suspect as well as its connective wires and the other devices feeding it. This includes the FUEL PUMP, FUEL LEVEL sensor, the tachometer, the KILL switch.

Did this problem start happening some immediate time after installing the Dyna Coils?

 

[wildweasel_pt]

I keep forgetting to ask, I've been basing my observations on a US/Canada schematic. Is your '90 or '98 US/Canada or Europe?

Anyways in either case, The IGNITION fuse feeds the KILL switch. The KILL switch feeds the STARTER CIRCUIT CUT-OFF relay. The SCCO relay feeds your STARTER relay.

So after the KILL switch is the FUEL PUMP relay and the V-BOOST control unit. Those can be suspect as well as their connective wires and the other devices feeding them. This includes the FUEL RESERVE switch, the FUEL LEVEL sensor, the FUEL PUMP, the tachometer.

After the FUEL RESERVE switch is the FUEL PUMP relay. This can be suspect as well as its connective wires and the other devices feeding it. This includes the FUEL PUMP, FUEL LEVEL sensor, the tachometer, the KILL switch.

Did this problem start happening some immediate time after installing the Dyna Coils?

I have a '92 US full power engine 2WE.

I have no starter circuit cutoff relay from the ignition fuse goes up to the kill switch and then down to the fuelpump relay (when i flip teh kill switch to on the fuelpump relay closes for 5 seconds to prime fuel lines and carb bowls)

I don't have a starter circuit cutoff relay so i can crank the engine with the kill switch off but i have no spark due no energy to coils or fuel pump relay.

I have DJ7 so no VBoost and we are straying, the only fuse that goes is the ignition so the tachometer is also not an option (signal fuse).

The Dyna coils have been there for a long time and if they were bad the problem would be constant.

This past 2 days i did 350kms with no blown fuse... Go figure, the only thing i did was give a good clean to the kill switch and it wasn't dirty though...

These intermittent malfunctions are a pain. Im intrigues why this is only a billateral conversation Greg. I was expecting this matter to be challenging for the electrical experts here but so far no one chimed in...

 

[Diablotin]

Reading but can't help much here sorry

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[wildweasel_pt]

Reading but can't help much here sorry

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2

Sure mate, it was just an observation not a complain... LOL... Every input is precious and we are all here to screen it...

 

[ninjaneer]

I have a '92 US full power engine 2WE.

I have no starter circuit cutoff relay from the ignition fuse goes up to the kill switch and then down to the fuelpump relay (when i flip teh kill switch to on the fuelpump relay closes for 5 seconds to prime fuel lines and carb bowls)

I don't have a starter circuit cutoff relay so i can crank the engine with the kill switch off but i have no spark due no energy to coils or fuel pump relay.

Ahh, now I see where the harness no longer is stock. From the sounds of it, you some how have both of the STARTER relay's positives connected to the battery--either directly, or after the MAIN fuse, or in between the IGNITION switch and IGNITION fuse. This leaves the KILL switch (and whatever is on the other side, e.g., FUEL PUMP relay), the FUEL RESERVE switch (and whatever is on the other side, e.g., FUEL PUMP relay), the COILS (and whatever is on the other side, e.g., the ICU and IAU). Forgive me for what may appear to be a dismissal of the symptoms, but I am trying to wrap my brain around the modified circuit.

I have DJ7 so no VBoost and we are straying, the only fuse that goes is the ignition so the tachometer is also not an option (signal fuse).

Agreed. Considering the wiring diagram with the results of your exploratory experiments, the gremlin is not in this area. However, I just read your Tachometer fluctuations thread. I am a rookie with respect to the inner workings of the IGNITION CONTROL UNIT and the FUEL PUMP relay, which are fed by the tach line. Naively speaking, could the tach's bouncing around some how influence these devices such that they cause an excessive load on the IGNITION fuse? For example, could the ICU fire the COILs incorrectly because of the tach feed back, which in turn presents the fuse with too much current? I don't know, just thinking out loud with my limited knowledge.

The Dyna coils have been there for a long time and if they were bad the problem would be constant.

Agreed. That is the reason why I asked. I needed to know if the Dyna Coils could have introduced this problem. I want to rule them out now based on your response, but for me they are still on the list of suspects, granted they are at the bottom of the list.

This past 2 days i did 350kms with no blown fuse... Go figure, the only thing i did was give a good clean to the kill switch and it wasn't dirty though...

Are there any other environmental factors that could have been present? Humidity, moisture, sunspots, EMPs? Just thinking out loud with some obvious levity.

These intermittent malfunctions are a pain.

Agreed, these are the hardest to solve because the factors that cause the problem are variables. Problems with "constant" factors are so much easier.

Im intrigues why this is only a billateral conversation Greg. I was expecting this matter to be challenging for the electrical experts here but so far no one chimed in...

Rest assured folks are reading and I know they would definitely chime in if they could. It's a hard problem. For me, I know it may appear that I'm probably just providing lip service or just talking at the problem, but I'm trying to help.


[EDIT]
I wonder if the removal of the SCCOR and the V-BOOST CONTROL UNIT and the introduction of the lower resistance Dyna Coils, has decreased the resistance on this particular circuit enough that the circuit is now drawing more current than what the stock IGNITION fuse was originally designed to handle. You could increase the FUSE's amperage rating, but I would shy away from that even after a late Friday night of drinks. I wonder if it would help matters if you shunt a resistor (that is equivalent to the SCCOR, the VBU, and stock coils) after the IGNITION FUSE to CHASSIS ground.
[/EDIT]

 

[Diablotin]

Just a thought... Would the tach fluctuation related to an ignition issue?
Many with multifunction tacho ended up having same kind of issue when the signal on the coils is not picked up properly.
I would like to think that your ignition is acting up and the tacho reading is reflecting it.
I'm no expert so just some thoughts

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[Diablotin]

Hehe no issue I guess ur gremlin is one of the most challenging we saw here. Hope you find a way. On the positive side it increases the knowledge of everybody

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[ninjaneer]

Fuses not blowing anymore?

 

[wildweasel_pt]

I haven't rode since yesterday. Between saturday and sunday i did 250 miles with no issues at all. At least electrical... LOL