Freedom of Speech

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gleno

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Bikers seem to have a keen appreciation of freedom.

Freedom of speech is being able to speak freely without censorship.

The right to freedom of speech is guaranteed under international law through numerous human-rights instruments, notably under Article 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and Article 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights, although implementation remains lacking in many countries.

The synonymous term 'freedom of expression' is sometimes preferred, since the right is not confined to verbal speech but is understood to protect any act of seeking, receiving and imparting information or ideas, regardless of the medium used.

In practice, the right to freedom of speech is not absolute in any country, although the degree of freedom varies greatly. For instance, the United States First Amendment theoretically grants absolute freedom, placing the burden upon the state to demonstrate when (if) a limitation of this freedom is necessary. In almost all liberal democracies, it is generally recognized that restrictions should be the exception and free expression the rule; nevertheless, compliance with this principle is often lacking.

Industrialized countries also have varying approaches to balance freedom with order.

An excellent recent example of the need to maintain order can be found in the 'The Junkyard' forum of this website in a thread titled 'Last Days of America'.

This thread was opened to advise and discuss various aspects of the operations of the Federal Reserve Bank of America and solicited expressions ranging from support, enlightenment, disbelief, hopeless resignation and passionate objection from various respondents.

This thread was originally located in a forum called 'The Burnout Pit' which is described as an anything goes forum yet it was closed by the moderators of the forum when two particular respondents verbally abused each other and finally threatened physical assault on each other over a disputed point of history.

Threatening to commit an assault (even at a future unspecified time) is against the law and is therefore a legitimate reason for a moderator to balance freedom with order. In this particular instant it would seem warranted that the two participants be excluded from the thread on those grounds. Or would it? Isn't that restricting their freedom of expression?

However, I would contend that closing the thread, thereby excluding all participants, is a violation of free speech and freedom of expression. This view is shared by other forum readers (not just respondents) who communicated their views and disappointment via private email.

There have been other threads consigned to 'The Junkyard' that remained open in spite of similar behaviour by some participating respondents.

So in view of this I must ask the question, "Do we still believe in and practice the 1st amendment right?"

The right to free speech is not free.

It carries a reciprocal obligation to defend others right to free speech whether or not you agree with what is expressed.

"If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all." - Noam Chomsky

So, is the the first amendment dead?

Do we see universal rights fade into history by ignoring them to death?
 
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Gleno, I re-opened the Last Days of America thread. But, if there is go ing to be name calling then we need to make sure we all have our thick skins on.
 
Hi Gleno

First, I support Mark closing the thread and any other action my Moderators take.
Is free speech dead... more or less YES, thanks largely to lawyers. While it may upset you that threads get closed and is an infringement of your "Freedom of speech", I'm more concerned with my legal rights and how they can get "infringed" upon by lawyers when threats are exchanged on the forum. If any threats are followed through with, then I (and the forum) get dragged into the legal quagmire that ensues. This forum should be viewed as visiting someone's house. Would you go to someone's house and threaten them, insult them and call them names, then get upset and complain about "freedom of speech" when they shut you out of their house? This forum should be viewed as "my house", where I try to have the minimum amount of rules, but I have to have some semblance of order in it. If it involves closing threads that are getting out of hand, then so be it. Unfortunately this is what has to be done now to keep things "legally acceptable".
At this time, I can't shut certain people out of certain threads, although it is something I will keep in mind.
 
Hi Gleno

First, I support Mark closing the thread and any other action my Moderators take.
Is free speech dead... more or less YES, thanks largely to lawyers. While it may upset you that threads get closed and is an infringement of your "Freedom of speech", I'm more concerned with my legal rights and how they can get "infringed" upon by lawyers when threats are exchanged on the forum. If any threats are followed through with, then I (and the forum) get dragged into the legal quagmire that ensues. This forum should be viewed as visiting someone's house. Would you go to someone's house and threaten them, insult them and call them names, then get upset and complain about "freedom of speech" when they shut you out of their house? This forum should be viewed as "my house", where I try to have the minimum amount of rules, but I have to have some semblance of order in it. If it involves closing threads that are getting out of hand, then so be it. Unfortunately this is what has to be done now to keep things "legally acceptable".
At this time, I can't shut certain people out of certain threads, although it is something I will keep in mind.

Hi Buster. Thanks for the feedback. I believe the moderators do a fantastic job of making this forum one of best on-line communities for a special interest group that I have come across on the net. You rightly deserve to be commended (and I have often expressed this via private email) for the amount and quality of work you do for an often thankless job, simply because you love it.

I share your view of lawyers. In fact I think your view of the profession is flattering. Enough said about that.

I would like to respond to each of the other points you have raised.

1) I agree with the view that there is often a need to balance the rights to freedom of expression with a need to maintain order.

It is clear to any thinking person, that moderators must act so as to avoid any legal jeopardy they (or other forum members) may be exposed to as a result of people threatening each other in a forum. However, there is a flaw with the statement that you would support 'any other action my Moderators take'.

While not the case in this particular instance, clearly, if any moderator were to take inappropriate action that created legal jeopardy you would be foolish to support that action. In this instance a topic of discussion was suppressed because of the inappropriately disconnected actions of two forum members.

The need to maintain order must avoid the consequence of collective punishment by denying the rights to free speech to all.

2) "This forum should be viewed as visiting someone's house. Would you go to someone's house and threaten them, insult them and call them names, then get upset and complain about "freedom of speech" when they shut you out of their house?

Your analogy of the forum as being a house is useful but inaccurate. To answer the first part of your question, no, I would not 'go to someone's house and threaten them, insult them and call them names'. No-one did this. Your analogy implies that the owner/host of the house was threatened when in fact, the threats were between two members who threatened each other not their host. Any threat to the host arises as a consequence of their actions and I'm sure they were not thinking of this at the time. In other words there was no intent to threaten the host.

To answer the second part of your question, would I 'then get upset and complain about 'freedom of speech' when they shut you out of their house?" Not if I had been one of the protagonists. They were not ejected for exercising their right to free speech. They were ejected for threatening to commit an assault and so, the analogy is inappropriate.

We do have an analogy of a house which is appropriate.

The speaker of the house of representatives in most modern democracies is tasked with the requirement to balance the right to freedom of speech and expression with the need to maintain order. Should a representative(s) of the house breach acceptable protocols of conduct the speaker has the right to eject the them from the house. The house remains open. Closing the house for the reason of maintaining order and as a consequence of disorderly conduct by a few is an inappropriate form of collective punishment because is suspends the rights of all participants in the house, denying them their right to free speech.

So, perhaps, as you have already suggested, a future enhancement allowing moderators the technical capability to eject members from the house for misbehavior can maintain the need to balance freedom with order without suppressing the topic of discussion.

Should be able to knock it over in the next spare five minutes right :whistlin:
 
Just to touch on a few of your points... I support the actions of the Moderators because we (have to) act as a team. A lot of thought was put into who would be Moderators as I needed people who could act and think independently, acted fairly and was level headed, wouldn't get pulled into the "name calling" game and realized the goal of this forum. I find the suggestion that I would support a Mod that was creating legal jeopardy a bit over the top, but I see the point you are trying to make. The point of my statement was that I need them to act independently and not ask my "permission" to do something. I trust their judgment and issues like these get forwarded to me, so I review them. In this case, I was away for the week, so locking the thread was an excellent choice. It is unfortunate that a "few bad apples" end up locking a thread but it is the only way to stop a potential out of control situation. I've been in the BBS/forum game long enough to know that until you can stop the rebuttals in the thread, the situation doesn't cool off.
I think you are taking the "my forum as my house" comparison too literal. I "invite" people to the forum with a common interest of the VMax as I would invite people into my house. While I don't expect people to act like they were visiting the Pope, I do expect some common courtesy. While the anonymity of the Web makes some braver in their comments, flaming, insults etc, I find it no more acceptable on the forum than I would in my house. If a party at my house starts to get out of hand with threats, then it is better to shut down the party then to let it get out of hand. Is it fair to the others not involved? No, it isn't, unfortunately this is the best way to handle a thread that is "falling apart". Until the Mods and I can get in there and do damage control and PM the parties involved, unfortunately a locked thread is the best solution.
Any ways, Gleno, thanks for the feedback and your well thought out posts. I have located a mod that can restrict access to threads so I will test it out and see if I can implement it.
 
:clapping: Great job, Keep up the fantastic work!!

I like this board and some of the true VMAX brothers / sisters here! I may piss some off, just as I may help others, or atleast I make some smile.
For what ever it is, freedom of speech has gone out a long time ago Gleno just as The right to Bare Arms, Just as if your illegal you can come in our country to work and also drive with no liscense.. Where have you been this is 2008 not the 1950 and previous?
This country is ran by lawyers and politicians. Both dishonest people just looking out for themselves and how much money they can leave behind to there familes...

Freedom of Speech :rofl_200: Ask Don Imus about freedom of speech...

Once again Great Job Buster!!:clapping:
 
FWIW I like my free speach just like I like my 2nd amendment. I too moderate a few internet forums, and on a couple it clearly says if you want free speech to respect everybody, and that freedom doesn't exist to every extent on that certain forum for the reasons of slander etc that can get thrown around.

Also, just to touch on the "House" analogy which I like in comparing it to an internet forum that is private, much like say a bar. It's privately owned as well. When two people start causing trouble, those people are asked to leave, and by passed employment, I got to ask that request a few times. When those people don't leave, or quite down, they are tossed out and sometimes the bar may have to close given certain circumstances. I too got given permission to execute that request as well. Just another way to look at it. Nobody here wants to see fights, insults etc, we're all here for a common interest, being the motorcycle hobby, and a little more specific the VMax.

I have no beef with anybody on here really, and if I did I'd tell you, just ask a few and take a gander at my signature. ;)
 
....and even tho some think I don't believe in freedom of speech.... I do!
the only thing I don't want to see is a member getting upset over comments....which I now do believe were made in the form of humor/sarcasm....
And I do apologize!
I'm not offended by any names called to me....hell....I work for the public!
BTW..... Quarterhorse....my avitars for you....lol :) :rofl_200:
 
I just wanted to add that the analogy of this forum being a house IS correct. This forum is OWNED by an individual, and as such the owner can be legally held responsible for what happens here.

I have freedom of speech, but that doesn't give me a right to go into somebody's house and say things the homeowner doesn't like, and they have every right to throw me out of their house if I say/do things they don't like.

Like it or not, no internet forum is a democracy, we're here in this forum only as long as the owner lets us, and that's perfectly fine by me, that's the way it's supposed to be.

-MikeS
 
I just wanted to add that the analogy of this forum being a house IS correct. This forum is OWNED by an individual, and as such the owner can be legally held responsible for what happens here.

I have freedom of speech, but that doesn't give me a right to go into somebody's house and say things the homeowner doesn't like, and they have every right to throw me out of their house if I say/do things they don't like.

Like it or not, no internet forum is a democracy, we're here in this forum only as long as the owner lets us, and that's perfectly fine by me, that's the way it's supposed to be.

-MikeS

amen brother....and as everyone knows....Buster and the moderators arent REAL hard asses!
 
Guys, I run a website, a mag and a large message board for a living. I can assure you, this is a well run bike message board. Buster and the guys do a great job...just enough of a leash to keep people from getting too brutal with each other, but enough freedom to make it fun.

So many of the motorcycle message boards that I frequent are run by no-fun tight asses. They're over-moderated, boring and are mere rah-rah boards for the bike in question.

Here's my prediction. When the new Max hits the streets, this site is going to really start to grow....assuming the new Max is as good as advertised. With a guy like Sean Morley (and others) around, none of the other Max sites can touch this one, IMHO.

If Yamaha had any sense, they'd give Sean a new Max, as almost single-handedly he's been supporting the Max riders on the 'Net for years now. No reason to think he wouldn't do the same with a new bike if they'd support him. But, I digress.
 
why do so many worry about america who dont live here.....very strange...on the other hand... I belong to a few sites over the years ..jusT hang out on two sites now...and this site by far is 90% smaller then some other sites and has 90%
more closed threads....Theres more to being a mod then saying ( if this thread get out of hand im closing it ).. ..sure throw everything in the junk yard ..thats the easy way out ...theres a problem when so many threads get closed...just my rant...only in america :thumbs up:
 
"why do so many worry about america who dont live here.....very strange..."

Because the principles of individual freedom are the foundation on which your nations freedom rests. Those principles are UNIVERSAL to all people. You should be proud of the fact that so many non-Americans are morally allied and deeply committed to the protection of your constitution and Bill of Rights. They are your canaries in the coal mine.

Democracy - If you don't use it you lose it. :punk:
 
Because the principles of individual freedom are the foundation on which your nations freedom rests. Those principles are UNIVERSAL to all people. You should be proud of the fact that so many non-Americans are morally allied and deeply committed to the protection of your constitution and Bill of Rights. They are your canaries in the coal mine.

Democracy - If you don't use it you lose it. :punk:


thanks for caring gleno..they also put dead canaries in peoples mouths who talk to much...that may be an italian thng :rofl_200:
 
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