creaking for rear end with new mods

[gamorg02]

I have only skimped over a few of the posts so I might be posting something that's been said previously..

Make sure that all the integral spacers are long enough to be doing what they should be doing. The axle pulls up everything thru the centre of the bearings versus the collars or spacers that face up against them. If for example the sleeve or collar call it what you like, if it was too short then tightening the axle will make the bearings go tight as pressure is exerted to bearing race rather than the centre of the bearing. It would be tight and tend to creak as you describe.
The wheel should never feel tight.

Check the long sleeve between the bearings inside the wheel and even add a shim to it and test it again.

Hey steve thanks for the input.

the long and short of it is:

new swingarm, new kosman wheel. I did all the bearings myself (ie room for error). they were brand new. with the new stuff i noticed a creaking coming from the rear end at low speed, engine off, rolling the bike around. not knowing any better i thought it was the rear diff and the problems that creates when not lined up. once i started posting about it though most agreed it sounded like the needle bearing.

trying to re-adjust the wheel over and over again the only thing that caused the noise to stop was taking the rear axle out so that the collar of the axle was out of the clamp on the swingarm... fought with it a few more days and at one point saw my tire wearing away the powder on the swingarm. tried the washer swap and the noise stopped for 15 miles or so, then back, not as bad, but definitely back. also with the washer swap the wheel seems a bit tighter when the rear axle nut is torqued down properly.

you'll have to excuse my lack of knowledge and i've been asking some dumb questions but i def wanna explore your thoughts here. looking at my old wheel (where i'm 95% sure no creaking exists with the new swingarm), the needle bearing is probably sitting equidistance between the top of the collar it goes into and the ledge it bottoms out on. the spacer between the bearings is loose in there and requires the inner race of the needle bearing to be in to hold it still. even so, if you have it all together, rolling it around you can hear the spacer rattling a bit (once again never had a problem and pretty sure no creaking with the new setup).

so to the new wheel. spacer has a little wiggle room but not much between the bearings. brake side has the circlip and seal (along with spacer between brake arm and bearing), and needle bearing got driven in to the seat. at one point when troubleshooting that needle bearing had walked halfway to the end of the 'tube' it goes into. so i pounded it back in.

-------------

so that should be up to speed on troubleshooting so far.

i'm starting to wonder if what i feel when the wheel is 'too tight' with the washer swap is related to the creaking. I think I see what you mean with the spacers. if it was too short it would be 'free floating' with the inner race from the needle bearing and unnecessary pressure would be on the inner race from the ball bearing, yes? each bearing should have equal pressure from each side on the inner race, right?

if I was short at all, wouldn't adding the washer on the left make up the slack? Or maybe I am still short and thats whats causing the slight 'tightness'? I would say, however, the old wheel had less of the 'inner race' sticking out from the wheel hub and the collar/spacer was looser in the hub than the new wheel..

i hope thats not too many questions, just thinking through it outloud.

 

[jedi-]

I'll have a look at a stock wheel I have at work and look at the spacers or I'll take a deeper look at some of the schematics of the assembly and go from there.

You have an extended swingarm? How much are you fighting with the axle to align the large end of it held with the pinch bolt? If you are having alignment issues it might suggest your swingarm is out of wack, it could be out in a number of ways and might be "bowing" when you tighten it up.

Here's a simple test you could do CAREFULLY. assemble everything thing up as you consider right, spacer etc and then loosen the 4 bolts holding the diff to the swingarm and then test it being careful all the bolts don't fall off.
Just go for a short run. What this will do is relax any misalignment if there is any
from the two sides of the swingarm. If the creaking goes away then you have found the problem. I suspect it is something along those lines.
If it is the problem I can show you what to do.

 

[gamorg02]

I'll have a look at a stock wheel I have at work and look at the spacers or I'll take a deeper look at some of the schematics of the assembly and go from there.

You have an extended swingarm? How much are you fighting with the axle to align the large end of it held with the pinch bolt? If you are having alignment issues it might suggest your swingarm is out of wack, it could be out in a number of ways and might be "bowing" when you tighten it up.

Here's a simple test you could do CAREFULLY. assemble everything thing up as you consider right, spacer etc and then loosen the 4 bolts holding the diff to the swingarm and then test it being careful all the bolts don't fall off.
Just go for a short run. What this will do is relax any misalignment if there is any
from the two sides of the swingarm. If the creaking goes away then you have found the problem. I suspect it is something along those lines.
If it is the problem I can show you what to do.

The wheel is on the bike right now so I can EASILY loosen the 4 bolts. how much do you recommend loosening, so theres just enough of a space to see light between the swingarm and final drive? so it can move if it wants?

One more piece of info I omitted above for readability, was at one point the axle was not going in smoothly and it was like the swingarm was bowed 'in'. i measured it against my stock and found it was about 1/8" too narrow. speaking with Morley he said if i sent it back he would just spread it with a jack so I did the same and made up that 1/8" after about an hour of trying. Once that was done the axle goes in relatively smoothly.

the swingarm is stock length, braced and notched by Morley, powder was done local.

 

[jedi-]

Back them off to finger tight and then try it out.

 

[gamorg02]

Back them off to finger tight and then try it out.

thanks steve

i can do that. i'll update in a few hours. still @ work now.

 

[gamorg02]

I'll have a look at a stock wheel I have at work and look at the spacers or I'll take a deeper look at some of the schematics of the assembly and go from there.

You have an extended swingarm? How much are you fighting with the axle to align the large end of it held with the pinch bolt? If you are having alignment issues it might suggest your swingarm is out of wack, it could be out in a number of ways and might be "bowing" when you tighten it up.

Here's a simple test you could do CAREFULLY. assemble everything thing up as you consider right, spacer etc and then loosen the 4 bolts holding the diff to the swingarm and then test it being careful all the bolts don't fall off.
Just go for a short run. What this will do is relax any misalignment if there is any
from the two sides of the swingarm. If the creaking goes away then you have found the problem. I suspect it is something along those lines.
If it is the problem I can show you what to do.

you were right and as i suspected, the creaking is gone with the acorn nuts on finger tight.

i only did 2-3 miles like that but rolled it around for a long while seeing if the noise would reappear. i'm 99% sure that 'solved' it. whats your idea for a fix?

if i didn't know any better i'd say a 1-1.5mm rubber gasket around there allowing it to flex where it wants to be would solve the problem.

 

[spursmech]

:ummm: Garrett, either the spacer between the two bearings is too short or too long, that is all it is. If you can not tighten the axle nut to the correct torque spec. that is your problem. Putting a gasket between the final drive and the swingarm flange will do nothing. If you really want to know how your frame/swingarm set up is after getting rid of this problem take the bike to a place like Computrack and they will align the whole bike for you. This is the best money I have ever spent on a bike and VMAXs need it from the factory, as they are way out of wack. Good Luck, Spurs

 

[gamorg02]

:ummm: Garrett, either the spacer between the two bearings is too short or too long, that is all it is. If you can not tighten the axle nut to the correct torque spec. that is your problem. Putting a gasket between the final drive and the swingarm flange will do nothing. If you really want to know how your frame/swingarm set up is after getting rid of this problem take the bike to a place like Computrack and they will align the whole bike for you. This is the best money I have ever spent on a bike and VMAXs need it from the factory, as they are way out of wack. Good Luck, Spurs

I just checked, with the final drive acorn nuts finger tight, i can torque the rear axle nut to spec and the wheel isn't tight or anything on its rotation at all...

 

[jedi-]

you were right and as i suspected, the creaking is gone with the acorn nuts on finger tight.

i only did 2-3 miles like that but rolled it around for a long while seeing if the noise would reappear. i'm 99% sure that 'solved' it. whats your idea for a fix?

if i didn't know any better i'd say a 1-1.5mm rubber gasket around there allowing it to flex where it wants to be would solve the problem.

Ok now we're getting somewhere. A gasket isn't a really good idea as it in theory makes the diff side like a sponge pudding.
If you tighten the diff up and leaving the wheel off but with the axle in but not in the clamped sleeve, offer it up to the hole and where does it appear to misalign?
It could be out in 4 places , it could be high, low, forwards or backwards, even worse it could be a combo.
Try that and let's know the results, if you're unsure what I'm on about I can take some pictures for you.
The remedy will be to fix the swingarm, it's got distorted with the bracing IMO.

 

[one2dmax]

That is possible but the overall length wasn't altered. It could be up on one side higher then the other but we check height with struts on a good chassis BUT, we could have missed something.

Sean

 

[gamorg02]

Ok now we're getting somewhere. A gasket isn't a really good idea as it in theory makes the diff side like a sponge pudding.
If you tighten the diff up and leaving the wheel off but with the axle in but not in the clamped sleeve, offer it up to the hole and where does it appear to misalign?
It could be out in 4 places , it could be high, low, forwards or backwards, even worse it could be a combo.
Try that and let's know the results, if you're unsure what I'm on about I can take some pictures for you.
The remedy will be to fix the swingarm, it's got distorted with the bracing IMO.

ah ok, so much for the gasket idea.

prior to me stretching the swingarm out, it appeared that the collar end of the axle wanted to rest toward the 'front' of the bike. once i stretched it that was gone.

when the wheel is off and I line it up, it looks pretty straight, but clearly it isn't. is there a better way to tell?

That is possible but the overall length wasn't altered. It could be up on one side higher then the other but we check height with struts on a good chassis BUT, we could have missed something.

Sean

ya know u saying that just made me remember something. each time i've had to put the left side shock back on its been a pain. (right is always still on). like the distance between the mounts is too short and i have to work some magic to get it on. once a good number of miles have been put on, it slides right off though.

on the test today, the top space between the swingarm and final drive was definitely around 1 mm but on the bottom the space was probably .2mm or less. does that prove anything or is it just the weight of the assembly?

FYI i'm running 11.5 progressive 412s.

 

[jedi-]

ah ok, so much for the gasket idea.

prior to me stretching the swingarm out, it appeared that the collar end of the axle wanted to rest toward the 'front' of the bike. once i stretched it that was gone.

when the wheel is off and I line it up, it looks pretty straight, but clearly it isn't. is there a better way to tell?

I'll do the same scenario with a swingarm I have at work with an axle and have a good look at it.

I know it would be a pain to do but if you had a stock swingarm you could swap out with your one you could definitely prove/disprove the situation.

 

[gamorg02]

I'll do the same scenario with a swingarm I have at work with an axle and have a good look at it.

I know it would be a pain to do but if you had a stock swingarm you could swap out with your one you could definitely prove/disprove the situation.

honestly once i get the rear diff and wheel off (i have to take the rear diff off to get the wheel off with the 190 tire) taking the swingarm off isn't that much more work, it shouldn't be a problem.

is it ok to run the swingarm without the rubber boot that covers the U-joint for testing? that honestly takes me just as much time to fit as it does to install everything else

the reason i hadn't tried before was not knowing if the 190 would fit without a notched swingarm. now that i know the washer swap has to be done even for the notched swingarm, i'll try, and hope it fits..

also, just a thought, but.. any ideas why my old wheel isn't making those noises on the new swingarm/same final drive? i'm not 100% sure, as i've only done bench tests with it and not taken it out, but i would have thought it would have shown at that point...

 

[tugla]

did you bench test the old wheel then right away the new wheel? maybe that might show something in the assembly on the bench versus the bike. even if you flatten the tire(take air out) you cant get your 190 in there then pump it up?

 

[gamorg02]

did you bench test the old wheel then right away the new wheel? maybe that might show something in the assembly on the bench versus the bike. even if you flatten the tire(take air out) you cant get your 190 in there then pump it up?

test was to put bike on center stand and run it thru the gears for 20-30 seconds.

then I tested:
new wheel/new swingarm -> Creak
old wheel/new swingarm -> no creak
new wheel/new swingarm -> creak back

now i thought the creak was gone last weekend with the washer swap too but it took 10 miles or so to show back up, SO its possible the creak could have shown back up with the old wheel just taken a bit longer..

and i'm prett sure not, it its significantly wider than the plastic flange around the final drive. plus that tire isn't that malleable.

 

[tugla]

ohh ok just a thought

 

[gamorg02]

sooo today was interesting. spent the afternoon and swapped my notched/braced for the stock swingarm.

the 190 tire didn't fit perfectly so i def had to do the washer swap and couldn't torque everything perfect. the axle nut was just 'tightish' and i couldn't pull it all the way thru otherwise the tire would rub. by pull i mean torque the nut to like 100 ft lbs so the axle is tight against the brake arm. so i did it as tight as i could with still being able to put a postcard between the tire and swingarm.

also i noticed the shock was VERY easy to put on not like before where it seemed like the distance b/t the two mount points was too short (where if anything you'd think it'd be too long with it only mounted on one shock).

anyways end of the story is no creaking. none whatsoever. did 6-8 miles which SHOULD have been enough to reproduce it if it was there.

i have a call into sean about it and i'll chat with him...

i also ran it without the swingarm boot because it takes me like 45 mins to get the damn thing on, does anyone have any tricks for that?

 

[one2dmax]

Sorry for missing the call Garrett. Ship me back the arm because you can't fix it with regular tools. We can fit it into our jig and get it straightened and should not hurt your powdercoat. It will cost you some additional time which I apologize for.

The boot has tabs that you pull on to get it back on. You can use a cotter pin tool (a hooked screwdriver).

Sean

 

[gamorg02]

Thanks sean. It'll be on its way in the am.


Also don't want people thinking u weren't helping me the whole way. Just wanted to give you a break time to time.

Just another +1 to seans customer service.

Sorry for missing the call Garrett. Ship me back the arm because you can't fix it with regular tools. We can fit it into our jig and get it straightened and should not hurt your powdercoat. It will cost you some additional time which I apologize for.

The boot has tabs that you pull on to get it back on. You can use a cotter pin tool (a hooked screwdriver).

Sean

 

[jedi-]

cool you got it sorted so there's no point me detailing the axle arrangement from my sample one at work.

Welding stuff creates distortion, it's just the nature of the beast it can't always be totally eliminated. Once you get it tweaked back into shape you'll be fine:eusa_dance: