"Dark Side" on the Max?

[RaWarrior]

Wondering if anybody here has tried "darksiding", or putting a car tire on the back of your bike. I've heard a fair amount about it in touring circles, and most everybody that does it has nothing but glowing reviews about it.

There's a fairly lengthy article about it here , and from what I can tell by reading the author's books, he really knows how to ride, with hundreds of thousands of miles experience. He makes a convincing argument, and addresses the common "that can't possibly work" theories. He claims that durability and reliability is substantially higher, cost is lower, and handling "confidence" actually improved- as in you can nail it coming out of a corner with no wiggle or burnout.

The big kicker for me was the picture of the tire at 23k miles, and how the center is most worn, not the sides, and that the little nubs along the edge are still there.

This guy isn't a straight-line-at-55 kind of tourer either.....he rides as aggressively as possible on a Valkyrie. High speeds, peg-dragger turns, ect.

He also mentions how sucky Avon Venom tires were on the Valk, and I can certainly attest to that. Mine just spin spin spin, and are downright scary in the rain.

While the Max doesn't have the size or weight of a Valk, it does have the power(and then some if I remember right). Being able to better put that power to the ground I think would make a tremendous difference for both riding confidence and overall performance.

 

[gamorg02]

interesting article. acouple guys have tried eh? i'd consider trying it if i had a spare rim.

 

[GREEN light BLITZ]

this SEEMS like you would end up on the side wall too easily when cornering.Im sure the article adresses this but I didnt read the whole thing.Im interested though, its far too easy to kill a motorcycle tire by balding just the center so this looks like a fair alternative and a pretty aggressive look!
But will it fit???

 

[red98vmax]

Anyone have a car brand/size that will fit a stock vmax rim and swingarm (no notch). Are radials available for the rear? You can put any radial on the front to match types, right? Sounds like it could be a reasonable option for non peg scrapers, but I haven't heard much talk of it.

Steve

 

[kaboom]

I'd try it.....

I'm just not smart enough to figure out what would fit on a stock bike:confused2:

 

[RaWarrior]

I suppose a hitch here is that the Valkyrie came stock with wheels designed for radial tires, where our GenI Max's have standard bias ply rims. I'm not sure if you can even buy non-radial car tires anymore, outside of specialty tires for antique vehicles. So for the Valk it was just a case of swapping out the tires with no modifications required. Anyone know for sure if radial's can be mounted on stock Max rims? I googled around and couldn't find a clear answer, the best I found was "have a tire professional examine the lip of your wheel to determine if a radial can be fitted"

I know there's somebody out there that will "convert" stock Max rims to accept radials, but if I remember it was very pricey, somewhere near a grand- I suspect new radial wheels could be bought for cheaper.

I like my red powdercoated stock wheels, so I guess this isn't an option for me. Oh well, it's an interesting concept. I'm thinking I will go with the Shinko tour master tires in the spring....they're less than half the price of Metzler's and there seems to be a lot of positive feedback about them.

 

[kaboom]

I suppose a hitch here is that the Valkyrie came stock with wheels designed for radial tires, where our GenI Max's have standard bias ply rims. I'm not sure if you can even buy non-radial car tires anymore, outside of specialty tires for antique vehicles. So for the Valk it was just a case of swapping out the tires with no modifications required. Anyone know for sure if radial's can be mounted on stock Max rims? I googled around and couldn't find a clear answer, the best I found was "have a tire professional examine the lip of your wheel to determine if a radial can be fitted"

I know there's somebody out there that will "convert" stock Max rims to accept radials, but if I remember it was very pricey, somewhere near a grand- I suspect new radial wheels could be bought for cheaper.

I like my red powdercoated stock wheels, so I guess this isn't an option for me. Oh well, it's an interesting concept. I'm thinking I will go with the Shinko tour master tires in the spring....they're less than half the price of Metzler's and there seems to be a lot of positive feedback about them.

I agree the red wheels are sharp looking....:eusa_dance:

And also that my next tires will be Shinkos.....the thought of a car tire is intriguing though.....unk:

 

[pegscraper]

I use one and like it. I have no trouble scraping pegs and wish the bike would let me lean over more. I have about 18,000 miles on mine so far and still going. No rim modification needed. The RSVs and Royal Stars take the same size rear tire as the VMX, 150/90-15. The CT size of 165/80R15 is exactly the same width and diameter. It's a bit of an oddball size and hard to find. The Kumho Powerstar 758 is a brand that seems popular. I still use a bias up front. It doesn't have to be a radial. Y themselves do this radial rear/bias front mix on some of their new models.

 

[4gasem]

If a car tire was better they'd use them to race with. I know Geek Law runs one on his Rocket III but he is also running a side car 99% of the time. Personally I wouldn't do it but your ass is your own.

LankeeYankee (former member) used to run one more for the strip then anything I think.

From what I was told is you have to modify the bead of the stock wheel to accept the car tire. This is per people who've done it.

 

[naughtyG]

I don't care what anyone says I still think it's suicide. I wouldn't go near a car tire on a bike unless I was running a side car.
If running car tires was safe and the way to go, then manufacturers would simply do that all the time, and not bother making tires designed to run on many angle. Car tires are designed to run flat, not on their edges. That's a no-brainer to me.

 

[Geek_Law]

I use one and like it. I have no trouble scraping pegs and wish the bike would let me lean over more. I have about 18,000 miles on mine so far and still going. No rim modification needed. The RSVs and Royal Stars take the same size rear tire as the VMX, 150/90-15. The CT size of 165/80R15 is exactly the same width and diameter. It's a bit of an oddball size and hard to find. The Kumho Powerstar 758 is a brand that seems popular. I still use a bias up front. It doesn't have to be a radial. Y themselves do this radial rear/bias front mix on some of their new models.

Oh man! I've been looking like crazy trying to find a CT size that will fit the max. I hadn't looked into this size. I had even started looking at wider rims so that I can accommodate radial car tires.

I run a 245/50/16 on my Rocket both with and without the sidecar attached. There are lots of naysayers and there are lots of those who say how wonderful it is, but at the end of the day, its kind of a "to each his own" type of thing.

Anyway, after you've had a car tire (dark side tire) you become kind of spoiled and its hard to put up with a regular MC tire.

If a car tire was better they'd use them to race with. I know Geek Law runs one on his Rocket III but he is also running a side car 99% of the time. Personally I wouldn't do it but your ass is your own.

LankeeYankee (former member) used to run one more for the strip then anything I think.

From what I was told is you have to modify the bead of the stock wheel to accept the car tire. This is per people who've done it.

I do keep the sidecar on the rocket most of the time now, but I had the car tire on for more than a year before getting the sidecar. I also had the sidecar off for a few weeks this summer when I was out looking at max's.

Like I say, its a personal decision, but it is definitely possible. The important thing with rims is making sure that the car tire is spec'd to accommodate the rim width. The problem that I've been having with the max is that it has a 3.5" rim and all the radials that I have seen so far require a larger (wider) rim.

4-ply tires would work, but I'd prefer to just run the MC tire.

 

[Geek_Law]

Hmmm ... I just looked at the 165/80R15 as well as the 155/80/15 which I had previously looked at. They require a 4.5" wide rim to 5.5" rim.

PegScraper: Are you running the Kumho on a 3.5" stock rim or does my 1990 max have a different size rear rim than your bike?

 

[pegscraper]

Boy, I don't remember how wide the rim is. I sure thought it was the same width as yours, but it's been a while since I've seen mine without a tire on it.

Here are two pictures of a slow speed corner through a water puddle test. This shows a CT in the back next to a MT in the front. Sure doesn't look like it rides on the corners of the tire to me. Radial tires have soft sidewalls and they flex and the tread stays on the ground. Which tire is putting more rubber on the road?

Ignore the naysaying is the only thing to do. I wish I had a dollar for every time I've heard their same old song and dance. They don't have anything new to bring to the table any more. There are a lot of us out here empirically proving them wrong every single day, and they still holler the same old thing. To each his own.

 

[RaWarrior]

^^^^^^^^

Those pictures prove the point that the car tire DOES NOT ride on the "edge" or sidewall during a turn. Car tires are not perfectly flat, they are slightly profiled like a MC tire just not as much. Radials have flexible sidewalls, which is the whole difference between a radial and bias/crossed ply, and why they usually offer better handling and a softer ride.

In those pictures, it's obvious that even in a hard lean over half the tread is still on the ground, and it sure looks that a lot more rubber is in contact with the road than a MC tire equivalent.

Sure, I wouldn't expect a track bike with super soft tires to run them but honestly I don't see the big problem.


I'm sorry, but the "if it was better OEM's would use it" is a pretty null and void argument. If Supertrapps gave more HP wouldn't Yamaha install them from the factory? If K+N filters improved flow wouldn't they be an OE choice? If Morley's jet kit improved performance and reduced engine temps wouldn't he be rich from selling his research to Yamaha? If the OE "knew best", there would be no aftermarket. There would be zero motivation to improve performance, because you know Yamaha already used all the best components possibly available. OEM's have to make a choice between what works, how much it costs, and what the market wants. As such, most bikes don't ship with top shelf components. They ship with "good" components that perform well, aren't overly expensive, and a "neutral" ground in appearance.

And Mr. Meyer is right about the technology....the only thing that has changed about bike tires is the price. We're still riding on bias ply tires....cars were all on radials by what, like the 70's or so? Except for some new tread patterns and ultra sticky race tires, nothing's changed. Again, there's no motivation to develop new tech. What's out there works OK and people are used to paying stupid prices for bike tires....it's a total cash cow for MC tire manufacturers. It's less rubber, a smaller tire, and yet it costs 2-3x that of even a high-end performance car tire with much more advanced construction.

Enough people have run car tires and lived to tell the tale that I really can't believe it's a death wish. I have not heard anywhere of an accident that was attributed to the car tire. In fact, everything I've heard suggests that a CT is safer due to a larger contact patch.

I couldn't find anything for your '96 RS, but the '08 RS is still listed as having a 3.5" rim- same as the Max. Though the tire you're running on your RS is "T" rated, which is good for 118mph. For touring that's not a problem, but that safely blocks out about the top 25% of Mr.Max's potential.

 

[Geek_Law]

Boy, I don't remember how wide the rim is. I sure thought it was the same width as yours, but it's been a while since I've seen mine without a tire on it.

You don't have to sell me on the darkside. I've been riding that way for almost two years now.

As for your rim, when you get a chance, would you mind throwing a tape measure against your rim from the inside? I would seriously appreciate it. If it is indeed a 3.5" wide rim, I think I may go ahead and try to mount the 165/80R15.

If I cannot get it to seat, then I can always put the MC tire back on.

No hurry. I've got a million other things I'm doing on the bike.

 

[pegscraper]

At this point, my calipers read about 4.55". I don't know what that means for the inside of the rim. I know our bikes take the same size rear MT. I'd probably give it a shot.

 

[Geek_Law]

At this point, my calipers read about 4.55". I don't know what that means for the inside of the rim. I know our bikes take the same size rear MT. I'd probably give it a shot.

Thanks for doing that. The width is the distance between the flanges, so you have a 4.5" wide rim from what I can tell. Mine is a 3.5" rim.

The same tire very likely accommodates a range of widths and I am at the bottom of the range, and you are at the top of the range. For example, the tire might fit 3.5" to 4.5" rims, and thus, we could both use the same MC tire.

Unfortunately the car tire that we were looking at requires a minimum of 5" to a max of 6" width. You are very close at 4.5" and are obviously not having issues. At 3.5" I'm pretty far out of their range.

I'll have to give it some thought. I think the more appropriate solution for me is to find a wider rim, or just live with the MC tire. Ugh.

 

[Jayhawk]

The only thing more entertaining than helmet threads on m/c boards are the darkside threads.

 

[gamorg02]

what about oil threads?

 

[Mr. Pickles]

I've ridden a Rocket III with a 225/50 Riken on it. I've ridden it for some distance (about 250 miles)

Cornering, it's not nearly as bad as I thought. I don't like it when I'm riding on a highway with even a slight crown. It felt like there was a constant cross wind blowing on either side of the bike depending on which direction the handle bars were being pitched slightly. There's no denying the money saved and tread longevity. My father in law has a bit over 10k on his and has taken a few trips over 1000 miles. He loves it. I , however, do not.