Puzzled.

[Limeyrider]

If your not getting spark on all 4 I would check the kickstand cut off switch.

Hey VMAXIMUM .... I checked the kickstand cut off switch yesterday ... it appears to be ok.
Thanks for your input.

 

[MaxMidnight]

The starter circuit relay is part of the safety circuit which prevents or stops the engine running if the transmission is in gear whilst the side stand is down. It also prevents starting if the transmission is in gear unless the side stand is up and the clutch lever pulled in.

As suggested previously, as you are seeing a spark, albeit weak, that suggests the relay isn't preventing starting. That said you should investigate the noises from within the relay so you should see if the unit be opened up to take a peek inside.

It would be worthwhile asking if anyone would lend you a working ignition unit and relay (Sean?) as that would help you rule out these components.

 

[Limeyrider]

The starter circuit relay is part of the safety circuit which prevents or stops the engine running if the transmission is in gear whilst the side stand is down. It also prevents starting if the transmission is in gear unless the side stand is up and the clutch lever pulled in.

As suggested previously, as you are seeing a spark, albeit weak, that suggests the relay isn't preventing starting. That said you should investigate the noises from within the relay so you should see if the unit be opened up to take a peek inside.

It would be worthwhile asking if anyone would lend you a working ignition unit and relay (Sean?) as that would help you rule out these components.

Hey MaxMidnight .... thank you for the explanation ... clear now.
I will try to open the relay without destroying it , to investigate the noise.
Who is Sean ? .... does he live in the US ?.... a contributing member of the Forum?.

Thanks again.

 

[02GF74]

I will try to open the relay without destroying it , to investigate the noise.
Who is Sean ? .... does he live in the US ?.... a contributing member of the Forum?.

Why? If the engine turns over with it connected then there are no issues with it. Is it still making the noise?

Also if turn signals work (you won't be able to test the self cancelation until you are moving - not 100% true, there is a way should we come to that) , then I'd say leave it alone, they're hard to find hence $$$

Sean, user one2dmax, is the guru, if you sawed off his arm, you'd see Vmax running through like tree rings. He's probably done more work on this model than I've eaten big macs. He will have spares that you can swap out on pay for what you need scheme retuning the rest (obviously Sean will correct me in case I have misstated his business).

If the relay worries you, just unplug and bypass it by joining the blue/white wire, from the manual, the relay has no bearing on the ignition circuit.

 

[Limeyrider]

Why? If the engine turns over with it connected then there are no issues with it. Is it still making the noise?

Also if turn signals work (you won't be able to test the self cancelation until you are moving - not 100% true, there is a way should we come to that) , then I'd say leave it alone, they're hard to find hence $$$

Sean, user one2dmax, is the guru, if you sawed off his arm, you'd see Vmax running through like tree rings. He's probably done more work on this model than I've eaten big macs. He will have spares that you can swap out on pay for what you need scheme retuning the rest (obviously Sean will correct me in case I have misstated his business).

If the relay worries you, just unplug and bypass it by joining the blue/white wire, from the manual, the relay has no bearing on the ignition circuit.

Hey 02GF74,
The relay is still making a clicking sound ... similar to small contacts operating. I am leaving well alone ... prying the to lid open showed fine wire coils ... nuff said !.
I did some resistance testing according the the instruction in the Yamaha manual ... on coils 1 & 3 ... primary resistance is 3.2 ohms, secondary 13.5ohms

On the front coils ... 2 & 4 .... primary 3.0 ohms, I could not get any reading for the secondary... I used the same method as used on 1 & 3 ..i.e. a short piece of good H/T lead bared at the outer end.

Whoever the genius is that located the front coils in their operating position should be encouraged to demonstrate Hara Kiri !!. If the front coils are bad, the engine will have to come out. The coil attachment screws are rusted solid !. Thanks for the info on Sean, sounds like THE man.

 

[02GF74]

Are you able to post a photo of the ignition / turn signal relay innards?

There is likely to be one or 2 microcontrollers and same number of relays, plus some passive components. The relay coils are likely to switched by a transistor - the clicking is possibly due to insufficient power to keep them closed. It is fixable but requires slightly more specialised test equipment and knowledge.

Front coil are inaccessible but I'm sure the engine does not need to come out, search the forum,that'll be madness!!!

With seized screws, use penetrating fluid over a couple of days, then an impact driver with correct JIS bit.

If you worked on Brit bikes, JIS will not be in your toolkit. This is a Japanese standard of crosshead screw. Wait until you have the correct bit, and use impact driver, don't be tempted to use a different screwdriver by hand, as the job becomes much harder once the screw heads are rounded off. Patience.

 

[Limeyrider]

I am very reluctant to try to fully open the relay, I can see into the small gap that there are fine wire coils, and printed circuit board(s).... I'd hate to write those off.
The only reason that I mentioned taking the engine out would be to get at the seized screws ... which someone has changed to standard Philips head at some point. I can probably drill through the gusset plate that is in front of the coils ... keeping the drill in line with the screws ... and then use a decent impact screw driver to get the screw loosened . Patience is my keyword ... I have built enough old bikes to realise that patience is the best non metallic tool in the box .

 

[02GF74]

I am very reluctant to try to fully open the relay, I can see into the small gap that there are fine wire coils, and printed circuit board(s).... I'd hate to write those off.

Please don't attempt for the very reason you state - I thought you had the top off. It oughta be possible to test the ignition relay and turn signal on the bench - did you say the turn signals are working? Check LED buls have not been fitted as they cause issues.

 

[Limeyrider]

The relay is intact ....I will leave it " as is ", the turn signals are working fine ... both ends.
I will be drilling the gusset plate to try to get to the screws that retain the front coils ... I will be better able to check resistance on them once they are off the bike.

 

[Limeyrider]

Now I'm REALLY puzzled !.... as I posted when testing primary and secondary resistance on the coils .... 1 + 3 coils tested within manual specs., 2 + 4 coils, the primary resistance is within manual spec. Now, here is the reason for my confusion ... testing the secondary on 2 + 4 using the same method as on 1 + 3, I get a " 0 " reading ... BUT, measuring resistance between the coil H/T lead and the connector that is NOT directly attached to the coil ...I measure 13.2 ohms , on both 2 + 4 coils ... that is within manual spec. ????. On this bike the coil connectors are coloured opaque, and yellow on the pigtail to the coil.

 

[02GF74]

Post #91 has picture of ignition coil.

Red/white wire is common to LT and HT coils, the other lead is at other end of LT coil whereas the HT lead connects to other end of HT coil.

Resistance between the two leads is order of 3 ohm (LT coil)

Resistance between red/white and HT connection is around 10 k ohm = you're saying you see 0 ohm, for both front coils?

Also you say 13.2 ohm, surely you missing a k (13.2k ohm)?
.
The resistance from HT connection to either wire had to be in order of 10k ohm (one measurement includes the resistance of the LT coil the other doesn't)

I can't make sense of your measurements. 0 ohm indicates HT coil is shorted out but then you should see 3 ohm between HT and other lead.

Are the front coils on the bench now?

Sorry if this sounds insulting, but you have the meter set on the correct resistance range?

 

[Limeyrider]

Hey 02GF74.... this is the manual page that I am using ... sorry about the split page. I am taking measurements according to the diagrams...hope that you can enlarge enough to read it.
My meter is set at 200 for the primary measurement, and set at 20k for the secondary ... yes, you are correct, the 13.2 should be 13.2k... sorry about that.
For the primary measurement I have the black probe on the orange wire, and the red probe on the red/ white wire ... switching sides made no difference.
For the secondary measurement I used an alligator clip on the red probe to contact the bare H/T wire, and the black probe on the red / white wire... this worked fine on the back two coils.
Measurement at the front coils showed "0" when using the " pigtail " from the coil, using the other part of the connector to the bare H/T wire showed 13.2 k .... sorry if this is confusing.
I have been unable to get the coils off the bike, I will have to take out the complete platform that holds the TCI unit and pressure switch ...and the coils.
I hope that this has clarified a bit .

 

[02GF74]

Just so i am clear. The HT lead is removed as in photo below and meter probes touch contacts. (I may have red/white wire in wrong position).

There are 3 possible measurements (meter lead positions are interchangeable)
- black is measuring LT coil resistance
- purple is measuring HT coil resistance
- red is measuring LT and HT coils in series (this is not necessary and not shown in the manual).

If you are getting 3 ohm for LT and 13.5 K ohm for HT, then coils check out.

If by pigtail you mean you have inserted a HT lead into the coil, and get 0 ohm = short circuit for purple measurment, then that is impossible and defies physics - are you sure that the meter is not showing open circuit?

 

[Limeyrider]

Hey 02GF74 .... thank you for your sketch.
Sorry to have confused you.
I could not reliably insert the probe into the H/T lead terminal ... I used a short length of new H/T wire with the outer end bared, the positive test probe was attached to the bared end, the black, negative probe was in contact with the red / white wire, that is where I measured 13.2k ohms.
I measured between the red / white and orange wires ( primary coil ? ) and that is where I got 3.2 ohms on both of the back coils, and both of the front coils, I could not get a measurement of the secondary coil on the two front coils

The "pigtail" that I refer to is the short wires attached to the coil ... the yellow coloured piece in your sketch. On the front coils I don't get any measurement between the H/T wire and the " pigtail ", the only measurement that I can get is between the H/T wire and the connector that the " pigtail " would connect to ... this is what is really confusing me. Thank you for your help and patience ....much appreciated.

 

[02GF74]

To check the coils, the only measurements that matter are shown in black (LT) and purple (HT).

I guess because the front coils are still on the bike that this is causing difficulty getting the probes onto the HT terminal? So you overcome this by inserting a short piece of HT lead and get no reading i.e. open circuit?

There are 2 reasons for this:
1. the HT coil is open circuit so has failed
2. the HT lead is not making contact with the HT terminal

To rule out no. 2, can you take a piece of aluminium foil, scrunch it into a tube and press it into the HT terminal socket, then touch the probe on that. If you pull the aluminium foil out, you should see an impression left by the spike. Note there is some risk of that you may push the foil in too far and then not get it out; maybe try a piece of wire, strip of some of the insulation and poke it into the socket.

Ideally you wantt he coils off for testing but if you can be certain that the probe is touching the HT terminal then no need.

It would be unusual for both coils to fail; a possibility the HT terminal may be corroded or broken so even if the tests pass, the cable may not be making contact.

 

[Limeyrider]

To check the coils, the only measurements that matter are shown in black (LT) and purple (HT).

I guess because the front coils are still on the bike that this is causing difficulty getting the probes onto the HT terminal? So you overcome this by inserting a short piece of HT lead and get no reading i.e. open circuit?

There are 2 reasons for this:
1. the HT coil is open circuit so has failed
2. the HT lead is not making contact with the HT terminal

To rule out no. 2, can you take a piece of aluminium foil, scrunch it into a tube and press it into the HT terminal socket, then touch the probe on that. If you pull the aluminium foil out, you should see an impression left by the spike. Note there is some risk of that you may push the foil in too far and then not get it out; maybe try a piece of wire, strip of some of the insulation and poke it into the socket.

Ideally you wantt he coils off for testing but if you can be certain that the probe is touching the HT terminal then no need.

It would be unusual for both coils to fail; a possibility the HT terminal may be corroded or broken so even if the tests pass, the cable may not be making contact.

I used the short piece of H/T wire on all of the coils .... back and front ... even on the back coils there is not a lot of room to reliably insert a probe. Thanks for the aluminium foil tip ... I will certainly give that a try. The coil spikes may well be corroded, I will get the spikes as clean as I can ...I have some small, Swiss files that are small enough to enter the terminal. Thanks again ... much appreciated.

 

[02GF74]

I'd suggest files as a last resort, a small brass brush (dremel - does that translate?) or wire wool is be a gentler way. Or fine wet n dry.

II'm sure there other way but that's the best I can come up with at the moment.

A q tip dipped in Wd40 may be enough to clean up.

 

[Limeyrider]

I'd suggest files as a last resort, a small brass brush (dremel - does that translate?) or wire wool is be a gentler way. Or fine wet n dry.

II'm sure there other way but that's the best I can come up with at the moment.

A q tip dipped in Wd40 may be enough to clean up.

My files are very fine cut ... for die polishing, but your caution is well taken, I have a Dremel, a fine brass brush may be in the kit. Thanks for your input. If the back coils are testing ok as far as resistance goes ... why am I not getting a spark at the plug, or bare H/T lead ?.

 

[02GF74]

why am I not getting a spark at the plug, or bare H/T lead ?.

Something is not working.

Some more things to try.
Fit the ignition lead to the coils and hand tighten the grommet . Fit cap and plug. Measure resistance between red/white and central plug electrode. Should be 33k ohm (13. 5k coil + 10k cap + 10 k plug).

Refit rear coils and plug in connector. Connect a test lamp comprising an LED and 1 k to 5k resistor, to orange wire and ground, as in photo below. . When engine turns over, you should just about see the LED flash. Alternatively set meter to AC Volts (NOT DC RANGE) and connect with one meter lead to the orange lead and other to ground.

When engine turns over, the voltage should increase.
On mine it goes from 0.003v to 0.058 v ; there should be an increase as the orange wire is switched. Note I tried 3 different DVM which show different voltages, but an increase in voltage when turning over.

This tests the ignition unit is switching the coil.

If either the LED lamp does not flash or no change in voltage, test the pick up coil.

Else it would point to a faulty ignition unit.

 

[02GF74]

Even better if you have an oscilloscope ;P

This is orange wire with engine idling, you can see the LT coil being switched.

When the engine is running, it's very obvious the LED is flashing.... but of course you don't need it then.