2nd gear fix advice

[schudaddie]

I,m trying to get all my facts straight before tearing into my engine this winter. I've done a lot research on this topic and have Damon's video on engine rebuilding. I'm wondering if this 2nd gear issue was resolved in later year 1st gen maxes. If so, would buying later year parts be any cheaper / reliable than going with the undercut process? My bike is a '85. Are they interchangeable? I'm a toolroom machinist with full access to all the necessary equipment needed to back cut the dogs etc. Is 2 to 3 degrees the proper angle to use? I wish I had the funds to ship gears etc off to Sean. I found forum where a fellow machinist did a nice writeup on how he did it which got me thinking about doing this myself.
http://www.r1-forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=281807
Sooo, throw your comments / advice my way. :ummm::ummm:
later, bill
thanks in advance

 

[davesax36]

2nd gear can go bad on any year, although I think there was a change in those first two years (maybe). The trans should swap, but you need to take the middle gear and shims and swap them to the new trans for clearance and wear on the output worm gear (or whatever it's called). I'm not sure I'd tackle the machine work myself as the guys Sean uses do this all the time. are you having trans issues or just concerned.

Cutting back stock gear dogs without hard welding to build up material first might not be such a great idea on the stock gears. I'm sure Sean will be along soon to give you more info.

 

[schudaddie]

yep, it's popping out. I would have to get a quote from the shop that does all our critical welding for our plastic injection molds. he's familiar with working on motorcycles. his dad is a retired BMW dealer and the two of them continue to do some amazing work on his dads collection.
thanks, bill

 

[davesax36]

If you can get the work done well and for a great price, have at it. I just know that the stuff from Sean was amazing. I'd send him an email ([email protected]). He's very helpful with procedures and stuff.

 

[one2dmax]

I would exercise some caution by just undercutting the gears on your own. The gears have a hard "crust" to them and you can only remove so much without going through this layer. Gears worn enough need to be hard welded up FIRST then undercut to maintain this layer. This knowledge is only learned through experience.

If you wanted to save some funds I may have a good used Venture trans around here (very similar ratios). Also, if you have the recall 85 trans the later gears will require more of them to be swapped then just the one with the wear (which will not be just one usually).

 

[schudaddie]

I would exercise some caution by just undercutting the gears on your own. The gears have a hard "crust" to them and you can only remove so much without going through this layer. Gears worn enough need to be hard welded up FIRST then undercut to maintain this layer. This knowledge is only learned through experience.

If you wanted to save some funds I may have a good used Venture trans around here (very similar ratios). Also, if you have the recall 85 trans the later gears will require more of them to be swapped then just the one with the wear (which will not be just one usually).

Sean, good to hear from you. the hard crust you refer to is what we call case hardening I believe. I wouldn't consider undercutting without the hard weld. I
would think .025" buildup would be enough if the wear is not too extreme.
I was not aware of a recall for the 85's. I'm the original owner of this bike and never received anything from yamaha about this. :ummm: surprise surprise....
Did yamaha ever do an upgrade for this issue in later year 1st gen models?
As far as the different ratios in that venture tranny you speak of, would that mean better MPG? I really need to get wrenching on this so I can move on with a decision for undercut (you or me) or replacement options and forks etc. already have the replacement shift selector and waterpump parts / gaskets etc. Maybe santa will get me the lift table I want.
I've been a good boy :santa:
thanks in advance, bill
merry christmas to all.....

 

[brad bruggeman]

2nd gear can go bad on any year, although I think there was a change in those first two years (maybe). The trans should swap, but you need to take the middle gear and shims and swap them to the new trans for clearance and wear on the output worm gear (or whatever it's called). I'm not sure I'd tackle the machine work myself as the guys Sean uses do this all the time. are you having trans issues or just concerned.

Cutting back stock gear dogs without hard welding to build up material first might not be such a great idea on the stock gears. I'm sure Sean will be along soon to give you more info.

What causes this 2nd gear issue?I have a 95 with 32k on it and have never had any issues with it.I tend to worry about it after reading these post..

 

[davesax36]

Could be anything, but usually clutchless 1-2 shifting with a poorly adjusted shifter that doesn't move the gears fully. Lots (like zillions) of guys have a hundred thousand miles on their stock trans with no issues. Others have stories like this one. I bought a bike at 5k miles that was apparently on its (at least) second transmission.

If everything is fine with yours and you're not being careless when you beat the hell out of your shifting, you'll probably be fine.

 

[one2dmax]

The 85's had issues with the basic design of the engagement dogs. 2nd gear engaged 5th with elongated teeth instead of dogs. A stronger design from a breakage standpoint but more susceptible to wear.

Case hardened would be correct for one terminology used to describe it. The amount of undercut and or weld required will depend on how worn yours is. You will also need to be able to get the machining done to be exact in terms of equal spacing. Then you will need to match the mating gear with that exact spacing so you get all the dogs holding equally. This is one of the problems with using out of the package gears. They are made with slop so one dog ends up holding all the energy until it has developed enough wear for the next one to help hold the power.


The ratios between the early Venture and vmax are almost identical (2,3,4 are exactly the same - with first and 5th only a few percentage points different).

Sean

 

[blaxmax]

I have a 1985 i just bought that pops out of 1st- can someone tell me about the recall?

 

[one2dmax]

Not really due to first gear and the recall parts ran out many years ago (probably 20 in fact). So, the bill is on you.

Sean

 

[blaxmax]

Cost to fix? Options? Thanks

 

[one2dmax]

Varies depending on if you want to put in used parts or do it with new (or our undercut service). Realisically the cost you're going to spend will be in the $1000 and up range depending on what all you do while you're in there. You could get by cheaper with some used parts or replacing JUST the one damaged gear pairing.

Email me and i can get you a cost spreadsheet for the job through us.

Sean
[email protected]

 

[schudaddie]

Just an update, I finished up the final details of splitting the cases and getting on the road again. replaced shift fork #1, shift cam / selector, new stock gears 2,3,4,5, rebuilt the waterpump and clutch slave cylinder, kawi o'ring, and made and installed engine saver bracket. this has been on going the past few weeks. watching me do this is like watching paint dry. many thanks for all the info on this website and the UK version, http://vmaxchat.yuku.com/directory#.VaHHsPlFc1l . also a tip of the cap to Damon for all his help / video.

If anyone needs the rubbercap that goes on the starter wire I found a guy supplying parts for yamaha xs bikes. same as the one on the max and only $1.50. (costs more for the shipping) but he's very prompt. got it in 3 days. http://www.mikesxs.net/
now on to solving voltage issue. already been thru the solutions here and can't get more than 13 volts @ 4000 rpm. high output stator and new version r/r already installed. starts fine hot or cold but my pc680 battery is coming up on 10 years old in september. going to pull it and have it load tested. one other thing I put in a temp switch for a 88 nissan but seem to have gotten the wrong part number for it. It turned on sooner but wouldn't turn off. I reinstalled the original max one.

thanks again to all, bill

 

[radley]

Does this repair require machine shop specialists? Or can I just go ahead and buy OEM parts..for a teardown/replace parts/ etc...?

Whats this talk about needing a press? I am new to repairs. Bought the manual. have lots to do, but this 2nd gear is on the list..

 

[Fire-medic]

You have an '85...

"wot's de num-bah??!??"
(VIN)

Does this repair require machine shop specialists? Or can I just go ahead and buy OEM parts..for a teardown/replace parts/ etc...?

Whats this talk about needing a press? I am new to repairs. Bought the manual. have lots to do, but this 2nd gear is on the list..

 

[schudaddie]

Does this repair require machine shop specialists? Or can I just go ahead and buy OEM parts..for a teardown/replace parts/ etc...?

Whats this talk about needing a press? I am new to repairs. Bought the manual. have lots to do, but this 2nd gear is on the list..

I did mine with OEM parts courtesy of Damon. I used an arbor press in the toolroom where I work at. Damons video has a wealth of info. contact him on this forum.
http://www.vmaxforum.net/member.php?u=1271
good luck, bill

 

[radley]

You have an '85...

"wot's de num-bah??!??"
(VIN)

I can get the VIN, what do you need that for?

My 2nd gear is COMPLETELY gone.

Say I'm riding in 3rd and am coming to a stop sign. I squeeze the clutch in and downshift to 2nd. At this point, I can release the clutch and in doing so, start to slow down (brake, is this called clutch-braking or something?). Now I'm in 2nd. the MOMENT I give the bike ANY throttle, it slips into Neutral.

If I start off in 1st, shift up to 2nd and give it ANY throttle whatsoever, it slips into Neutral. It USED to take a bit, say 3500 rpm before it would slip into neutral, now it does it almost instantly with the turn of the throttle....

Also, I have been hearing metal parts moving down in the transmission area when the bike is in gear (1,3,4,5) and I am riding. WHen i coast, or pull in the clutch, I won't hear it. It sounds like it's coming from the transmission area (assuming thats the big circle type part of the engine jsut in front of my left foot, when riding). When I coast or am at idle, no metal in washing machine type sound....

I doubt this is normal and has everything to do with the 2nd gear issue.....maybe I'm wrong.

I can get a video to upload if needed.

I have been riding without 2nd gear since I got my bike back on it's feet (2 yrs ago).

Can I keep riding like this or am I in need trouble soon?

 

[blaxmax]

I can get the VIN, what do you need that for?

My 2nd gear is COMPLETELY gone.

Say I'm riding in 3rd and am coming to a stop sign. I squeeze the clutch in and downshift to 2nd. At this point, I can release the clutch and in doing so, start to slow down (brake, is this called clutch-braking or something?). Now I'm in 2nd. the MOMENT I give the bike ANY throttle, it slips into Neutral.

If I start off in 1st, shift up to 2nd and give it ANY throttle whatsoever, it slips into Neutral. It USED to take a bit, say 3500 rpm before it would slip into neutral, now it does it almost instantly with the turn of the throttle....

Also, I have been hearing metal parts moving down in the transmission area when the bike is in gear (1,3,4,5) and I am riding. WHen i coast, or pull in the clutch, I won't hear it. It sounds like it's coming from the transmission area (assuming thats the big circle type part of the engine jsut in front of my left foot, when riding). When I coast or am at idle, no metal in washing machine type sound....

I doubt this is normal and has everything to do with the 2nd gear issue.....maybe I'm wrong.

I can get a video to upload if needed.

I have been riding without 2nd gear since I got my bike back on it's feet (2 yrs ago).

Can I keep riding like this or am I in need trouble soon?

You will actually be ok continuing to ride it that way. The noise is your clutch plates and very common-no problem there either.
Try holding your shifter up tight with your foot to try and keep it in gear- helps a little.
He was asking for the '85 vin numbers because it tells which one it is by consecutive numbers.
It is normal for some to pop out of gear also.
I have one I just bought a few months back I just shift 1st -3rd.

 

[Fire-medic]

On the forum, we like to see what the number is for any 1985 model. The 1985 bikes are numbered starting at #101, and go up from there. So if you have a bike having a VIN numbered before #1101, it's one of the first 1000 bikes manufactured for the US market, assuming the VIN plate is still there and says it's a US market bike meeting US regulations.