EFI Project

TURBOVMAX · Jan 31, 2009

I'm working at making up a set of manifold's to adapt sport bike throttle bodies. This a big project and we'll need lots of help from everyone to make it happen. The goal is to come up with an affordable EFI setup... hopefully a complete engine management system for the MAX. Any fiberglass guys out there? Gonna need an air box.

one2dmax · Jan 31, 2009

I have fiberglassing but we could maybe make an aluminum one that someone could mold off of?? Might even be able to adapt the stock box with some hacking and glass work.

Sean

Buster Hymen · Jan 31, 2009

TURBOVMAX said:
I'm working at making up a set of manifold's to adapt sport bike throttle bodies. This a big project and we'll need lots of help from everyone to make it happen. The goal is to come up with an affordable EFI setup... hopefully a complete engine management system for the MAX. Any fiberglass guys out there? Gonna need an air box.

Do you have to have an airbox? Mine is just running individual K&N filters on it.

TURBOVMAX · Jan 31, 2009

Buster Hymen said:
Do you have to have an airbox? Mine is just running individual K&N filters on it.

Not sure right now. For now I'll concentrate on setting up the throttle bodies using the stock carburetor spacing. I'm thinking a little bit down the road, where we may want to run ram tubes for tuning. Even further down that old dirt road, a blow-thru turbo setup. We're going to need a plenum to do that. The aluminum box Sean referred to would be a better choice in that case. :hmmm: Carbon Fiber might be cool. Are you running an EFI setup on your bike?

mnmax · Jan 31, 2009

Turbomax,

sounds like you know what your doing, but i thought i would share this with you

have you seen these sites, thought they might be a good reference

www.saarloos.net

http://roadstercycle.com/yamaha_vmax_fuel_injector_cv_car.htm

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/products.htm in this one you will have to do a lot of navigating around to see everything. they have a vmax turbo too

http://www.ramair4vmax.com/photo_gallery/photo_gallery.htm contact this guy for fiberglass work, airbox

Birdoprey · Jan 31, 2009

I think for starters it will be best to run individual filters, with a air temp sensor mounted in the end of one. Will be simple enough to do. We can always add to the setup.

Since cost is a big factor, initially we plan to run a Megasquirt or Microsquirt ECU. Most any of the MS versions will work for fuel alone, but the Microsquirt and MSII have the option of controlling ignition. If we are able to implement this, the ultimate cost savings are quite substantial as the Microsquirt runs around $400 and is already assembled. It could completely control the EFI AND would offer programmable ignition for not much more than a Dyna 3000. Just add TB's, filters, a few sensors and a fairly simple fuel system. The Microsquirt is also itty-bitty, being not much larger than a credit card(length and width wise).
The ignition side is proving to be quite involved though. To keep everything as affordable as possible while also keeping it simple to replicate by your average Joe, using the stk pickups would be best. This may be a problem. Been looking into that for a couple of weeks.

Buster Hymen · Feb 1, 2009

TURBOVMAX said:
Not sure right now. For now I'll concentrate on setting up the throttle bodies using the stock carburetor spacing. I'm thinking a little bit down the road, where we may want to run ram tubes for tuning. Even further down that old dirt road, a blow-thru turbo setup. We're going to need a plenum to do that. The aluminum box Sean referred to would be a better choice in that case. :hmmm: Carbon Fiber might be cool. Are you running an EFI setup on your bike?

Yes, I've got the EFI system that Bill sells. I got it off Chuck when he parted out his bike to get an 09 VMax. Chuck had it on a 1500 so the TBs are too big for my stock size motor so it has produced tuning issues. TheVmaxrider is suppose to buy this system off me since it will go better with his 1427 motor. But this system doesn't use an airbox, just single K&Ns.

TURBOVMAX · Feb 1, 2009

Thank You, I've added some comments... in blue. Thanks again for the input

mnmax said:
Turbomax,

sounds like you know what your doing, but i thought i would share this with you

have you seen these sites, thought they might be a good reference

www.saarloos.net Yes brilliant man! I've been a registered guest for years. I will contact him and ask him to join the forum.

http://roadstercycle.com/yamaha_vmax_fuel_injector_cv_car.htm Mr Birdoprey has contacted him and he's willing to share some programing digits with us

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/products.htm Run Toto Run! in this one you will have to do a lot of navigating around to see everything. they have a vmax turbo too

http://www.ramair4vmax.com/photo_gallery/photo_gallery.htm Now there you go, he may be interested in coupling up that ram air to our system, I will contact him and see what he has to say and invite him as well contact this guy for fiberglass work, airbox

TURBOVMAX · Feb 1, 2009

A man who goes where few have gone. Rock on Bird! Oh I mean't... Steve...Mark...Dave :ummm: Sorry all! Inside joke. Any other electronic genius out there?

Birdoprey said:
I think for starters it will be best to run individual filters, with a air temp sensor mounted in the end of one. Will be simple enough to do. We can always add to the setup.

Since cost is a big factor, initially we plan to run a Megasquirt or Microsquirt ECU. Most any of the MS versions will work for fuel alone, but the Microsquirt and MSII have the option of controlling ignition. If we are able to implement this, the ultimate cost savings are quite substantial as the Microsquirt runs around $400 and is already assembled. It could completely control the EFI AND would offer programmable ignition for not much more than a Dyna 3000. Just add TB's, filters, a few sensors and a fairly simple fuel system. The Microsquirt is also itty-bitty, being not much larger than a credit card(length and width wise).
The ignition side is proving to be quite involved though. To keep everything as affordable as possible while also keeping it simple to replicate by your average Joe, using the stk pickups would be best. This may be a problem. Been looking into that for a couple of weeks.

TURBOVMAX · Feb 1, 2009

The throttle bodies we will start with will be from a smaller displacement motor so we should be good to go from that aspect. Someone should tell Bill to put a Turbo on that thing. Make some real power! As far as the airbox is concerned, the first cut at the EFI will be bare bones affordable. All else can be added later, once we have tuning experience. Gotta walk before we can run...eh.

Buster Hymen said:
Yes, I've got the EFI system that Bill sells. I got it off Chuck when he parted out his bike to get an 09 VMax. Chuck had it on a 1500 so the TBs are too big for my stock size motor so it has produced tuning issues. TheVmaxrider is suppose to buy this system off me since it will go better with his 1427 motor. But this system doesn't use an airbox, just single K&Ns.

TURBOVMAX · Feb 2, 2009

Got busy this weekend with the project. 1st Manifold layout, trying to get a smooth transition from round to the elongated port of the cylinder head. More changes to come. Anybody have a set of heads I can buy cheap or borrow? I'm putting a jig together for the project. The condition of the heads is not important. Broken valves, cracked etc..

hubeerjw · Feb 2, 2009

I have some venture heads I could send you... basically the same, the porting inside is different but the oval intake opening is the same.

Jeff

one2dmax · Feb 2, 2009

even that upper half of the block would help him. I have empty cases and a few sets of heads.

Sean

hubeerjw · Feb 2, 2009

That's true... Sean gave me a cracked upper 1/2 of the block I have hanging on the wall (garage art). I could put the stock head bolts in there and you could then mount the heads to the top half of the block. I also have two air boxes (without lids) that I could donate as well.

As far as the intakes go, you might want to look at the Venture intakes. They are actually a little smaller in diameter/oval, but you could probably machine some of it out and make it work. I can send you those as well.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1983....c0.m245&_trkparms=72:727|65:12|39:1|240:1318

If you want pics of anything I have let me know and I'll get them posted. What is the OD of the throttle bodies you are planning on using?

Jeff

Birdoprey · Feb 2, 2009

I posted this info in the electrical section, as i thought it might be of interest/use to others that were not interested in our EFI/Ignition project. I'll post it here as well as it is related to the project.

There are two VR sensors, each with TWO individual pickups. Each VR sensor is mounted 70deg from the other. There are two triggers mounted on the flywheel, each 180deg from one another and each is physically off-set from the other. One rides on the inside edge of the flywheel and the other rides on the outer edge.
The two pickups on each sensor are offset from each other,one in-line with the inner flywheel trigger, and the other in-line with the outer flywheel trigger.
The inside pickup on the front sensor fires cyl #1
The outside pickup on the front sensor fires cyl #3
The inside pickup on the rear sensor fires cyl #2
The outside pickup on the rear sensor fires cyl #4

So, heres how the Vmax fires:
*Cyl #1 fires, then the crank rotates 70deg
Cyl #2 fires, then the crank rotates 110deg
*Cyl #3 fires, then the crank rotates 70deg
Cyl #4 fires, then the crank rotates 110deg
Cyl #1 fires, then the crank rotates 70deg
*Cyl #2 fires, then the crank rotates 110deg
Cyl #3 fires, then the crank rotates 70deg
*Cyl #4 fires, then the crank rotates 110deg
*Cyl #1 fires(back at the start

The "*" indicate when that cyl is TDC on its compression stroke(power stroke).
So, this is a true wasted spark arrangement, firing each cyl every 360 deg. Just waaaay more complicated than what i'm used to seeing(or have ever seen for that matter!)
You can see that cyl #1 fires(power stroke), then the crank rotates 180deg, then cyl #3 fires(P/S), then the crank rotates 250deg, then cyl #2 fires(P/S), then the crank rotates 180deg, then cyl #4 fires(P/S) and finally rotates 110 deg to start over again with cyl #1(P/S), giving the V-max its 1-3-2-4 firing order. There is just ALOT more going on with the pickups/coils than one would think!

I don't think the stk VR sensors will be of any use on the project. I'm still working on it though, and have not ruled them out. The problem stems from it having 4 independant triggers where the Megasquirt uses one, and the Microsquirt(and some versions of the MegasquirtII) can use two. We can't just tie two together for a wasted spark as each cyl has its own trigger WITH WASTED SPARK. This would fire the coils every 180deg! Kind of a Wasted/Wasted spark...

TURBOVMAX · Feb 3, 2009

hubeerjw said:
That's true... Sean gave me a cracked upper 1/2 of the block I have hanging on the wall (garage art). I could put the stock head bolts in there and you could then mount the heads to the top half of the block. I also have two air boxes (without lids) that I could donate as well.

As far as the intakes go, you might want to look at the Venture intakes. They are actually a little smaller in diameter/oval, but you could probably machine some of it out and make it work. I can send you those as well.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1983....c0.m245&_trkparms=72:727|65:12|39:1|240:1318

If you want pics of anything I have let me know and I'll get them posted. What is the OD of the throttle bodies you are planning on using?

Jeff

Jeff,

Here are the dimensions for the stock VMAX setup:

Bore 35 mm (1.38)
Inlet Spigot (air box) 52 mm (2.047)
Outlet Spigot (to manifold) 42 mm (1.654)
Center Distance (side to side) 145 mm (5.709)
Center Distance (front to back) 100 mm (3.937)

Yamaha R1 Throttle Bodies

Inlet Bore 42.5 mm (1.673)
Inlet Spigot (air box) 47 mm (1.85)
Outlet Bore 40 mm (1.75)
Outlet Spigot 52 mm (2.047)

The R1 throttle bodies are a bigger package all around verses the VMAX. Another thing to keep in mind is the position/angle of the injector relative to the intake port. I'd like to get a straight shot at the valves if I can. That may be impossible given the space constrictions within the V.

That being said, I don't think it's going to come down to simply bolting up a set of Venture manifolds. Maybe if we get lucky! NOT : ) Thank you for offer but I do have a set of Venture's hangin around here somewhere. Just starting... I will post pics once I actually start mocking up the prototype. The detail drawing I posted is just a first cut at getting things straight in my head dimensionally. Thanks again for upper case offer, got those too. Turbo's bite sometimes...hard.

Will keep ya all posted.

TURBOVMAX · Feb 3, 2009

one2dmax said:
even that upper half of the block would help him. I have empty cases and a few sets of heads.

Sean

Sean,

If you don't mind I'd like to take you up on the offer of a set of the VMAX heads, they are physically larger. I think setting up the whole thing with the proper gear will be wise. Proper head gasket and all. Hate to find out that there's a bump somewhere I may of overlooked. I hate awe shit's. I can borrow or buy. I'll PM you with the my details this evening. Running out of time, gotta go do that work thing soon.

TURBOVMAX · Feb 3, 2009

Birdoprey said:
I posted this info in the electrical section, as i thought it might be of interest/use to others that were not interested in our EFI/Ignition project. I'll post it here as well as it is related to the project.

There are two VR sensors, each with TWO individual pickups. Each VR sensor is mounted 70deg from the other. There are two triggers mounted on the flywheel, each 180deg from one another and each is physically off-set from the other. One rides on the inside edge of the flywheel and the other rides on the outer edge.
The two pickups on each sensor are offset from each other,one in-line with the inner flywheel trigger, and the other in-line with the outer flywheel trigger.
The inside pickup on the front sensor fires cyl #1
The outside pickup on the front sensor fires cyl #3
The inside pickup on the rear sensor fires cyl #2
The outside pickup on the rear sensor fires cyl #4

So, heres how the Vmax fires:
*Cyl #1 fires, then the crank rotates 70deg
Cyl #2 fires, then the crank rotates 110deg
*Cyl #3 fires, then the crank rotates 70deg
Cyl #4 fires, then the crank rotates 110deg
Cyl #1 fires, then the crank rotates 70deg
*Cyl #2 fires, then the crank rotates 110deg
Cyl #3 fires, then the crank rotates 70deg
*Cyl #4 fires, then the crank rotates 110deg
*Cyl #1 fires(back at the start

The "*" indicate when that cyl is TDC on its compression stroke(power stroke).
So, this is a true wasted spark arrangement, firing each cyl every 360 deg. Just waaaay more complicated than what i'm used to seeing(or have ever seen for that matter!)
You can see that cyl #1 fires(power stroke), then the crank rotates 180deg, then cyl #3 fires(P/S), then the crank rotates 250deg, then cyl #2 fires(P/S), then the crank rotates 180deg, then cyl #4 fires(P/S) and finally rotates 110 deg to start over again with cyl #1(P/S), giving the V-max its 1-3-2-4 firing order. There is just ALOT more going on with the pickups/coils than one would think!

I don't think the stk VR sensors will be of any use on the project. I'm still working on it though, and have not ruled them out. The problem stems from it having 4 independant triggers where the Megasquirt uses one, and the Microsquirt(and some versions of the MegasquirtII) can use two. We can't just tie two together for a wasted spark as each cyl has its own trigger WITH WASTED SPARK. This would fire the coils every 180deg! Kind of a Wasted/Wasted spark...

See it's simple! :worthy: I'm still confused.

one2dmax · Feb 3, 2009

How about the newer ignitions that use a single pickup. There are plenty of 90 and up bikes that use the single pickups and digital ignitions (see the other thread where I corrected the years for the dual pickups).

Gary, shoot me a regular email - [email protected] and I'll try to get some stuff boxed up. I have a couple of vmax heads sitting outside that are junk that would be great to have. I may even have another upper case half I can send so you can at least have that mocked up.

Sean

hubeerjw · Feb 3, 2009

Gary, as far as a striaght intake, what would happen if you basically made the base/flange part (with the oval cut out) and then you could basically take a tube/pipe and bend it into an oval. You wouldn't need anything too long, but this tube would basically be a lip and you could use some hose as the transition from the throttle body to the intake. A few hose clamps and you would be done. The hose would basically make the circular to oval transition for you. Here is a quick screen shot of what I was thinking.

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