starter gear hanging up

[CB2DMax]

The starter gear hangs up on my 2001 V-Max (38,000 miles). It's never been replaced. A reputable Yamaha mechanic told me that since I use Mobile 1 motorcycle oil, it's the leading cause to the problem. He went on to say that synthetic oil is so good that it makes it harder for the starter and the starter gears to properly engage, which causes premature failure of the starter gear. I've never heard of such a thing. If this is true, it seems to me that it'd be a generic problem with all electric start motorcycle engines and more of a universal problem. Thoughts and input???

 

[Rusty McNeil]

What do you mean by hanging up? The classic bang and rattle like a box of rocks sound we all get when the clutch is going into failure mode?

Or hanging up as in failure to disengage and the engine spins the starter when the engine starts even after you let off the button?

Never heard of the second symptom happening on a Max...so no input there

The first symptom usually begins with the starter clutch bolts in the flywheel becoming loose leading to starter clutch failure when the clutch cage cracks and flexes open causing the clutch to not engage right.........

I can't imagine this being due to the type of oil used, we would have heard of it by now, lots and lots of starter clutch failures on this board and very few using synthetic oil......

Starter clutch failure at 38,000 would not be out of the norm.


I think your mechanic kinda pulled this one out of his butt???:ummm:

then again I've been wrong plenty and there is a first time for everything...

 

[CB2DMax]

by "starter hanging up" I mean that the starter is turning over the motor and everything just stops. Occasionally, the starter motor doesn't engage at all and the engine doesn't turn over at all. Pushing the starter button again will usually get the engine to turn over. Often times, it will hang up again while the engine is turning over. When it does hang up, the starter continues to make a noise, as a bad starter would do, until you release the starter button. From what you said, it sounds like it is the starter clutch. Is this common with a V-Max? I had a '97 Max, put 23,000 miles on it before selling it. No problems like this. My '01 V-Max started having these starting problems at about 32,000 miles.

 

[ninjaneer]

can you post a video or something? the written word isn't vivid enough

 

[bazwell]

From what I have heard on mine, and what others say, the starter clutch doesn't ever just slip.
What we find is that when it goes wrong it keeps trying to re-engage, making a fast clanging sound.

I'm with Ninjaneer on this one. If we could hear it, it would be easier to diagnose what is wrong! Try and post a video. :biglaugh:

 

[johnpclynch]

From what I have heard on mine, and what others say, the starter clutch doesn't ever just slip.
What we find is that when it goes wrong it keeps trying to re-engage, making a fast clanging sound.

I'm with Ninjaneer on this one. If we could hear it, it would be easier to diagnose what is wrong! Try and post a video. :biglaugh:

Mine got so bad that it wouldn't even engage, it would just spin out but sometimes it might get lucky and you'd get one clunk but it rarely spun the motor more than a few degrees

 

[Rusty McNeil]

From what your describing sounds to me like it is for sure the starter clutch cage failing in the classic manner. i.e. loose bolts on the back side of the flywheel and then the cage starting to crack.

A video wouldn't hurt tho to help us help you..

It's not too hard of a fix and isn't too expensive either.

The hardest part is getting the flywheel off, some come right off but most will fight you till their last dying breath.

Do a search for starter clutch replacement and or flywheel removal and you'll find TONS of info on the board, it is a very popular discussion on here.

And the failure is fairly common too, mine went tits up at 40,000 or so and I now personally several around houston that have done the same, as well as many more on this forum.

Sometimes it would grab, sometimes it wouldn't, sometimes it would spin free, and sometimes when it would grab it would then lock up and not turn, which is usually due to a weak battery.

A weak battery can exacerbate the problem because the clamping force of the clutch is is provided by the strength of the battery, a weaker battery will "throw" the little "cams" or round pins in the clutch with enough force to make it try to grab but won't hit hard enough to lock up completely, giving you the banging rattle sound as it grabs and breaks free repeatedly. (this also exacerbates it by abusing the hell out of the clutch making the cage aorund those oins fail even fatser)
And then when it does grab good enough to turn the motor the battery doesn't have enough ass to actually turn the motor over.

Before doing any more diagnosis I would make sure your battery is up to the task.

A good battery shouldn't drop below around 10.5 to 11.0 volts when the clutch does it's job and the starter is actually trying to spin the motor. You can put a volt meter across the battery and start it to see how much it drops while in the start cycle, either by visual observation or setting the recording feature on the volt meter to "min-max" or just "Min" if it has that feature, although usually a visual read is good enough.

A poor battery will usually drop to as low as 7-9 volts or even less.

This is a poor mans load test of the battery.

 

[Blurr]

I had the bucket of bolts being stirred briskly thing going before mine gave out. I found that if i cracked the gas just enough to take up the slack it would start pretty much each time (completely clueless why that is). At least until it completely gave up the ghost and simply whirred and whirred. Sounds like you have reach the terminal stage with it.

I know Morley has a pretty good set of videos regarding it. The one on getting the fly wheel off is priceless, if only for the tip about the use of zip ties. Youtube: one2dmax or go to the vendor section of the forums and look for Morley's Muscle > Muscle Videos: Various Repairs - Inspections.

 

[CustomMax]

I found this clutch Mod


I am pleased to announce for our VR members a starter clutch mod that will last forever and put an end to that "Clunkety-clunk" that you hear when your starter clutch is going bad. I will let Squeeze explain it much better than I ever could:

The stock Starter Clutch is a one Way Clutch which uses three spring loaded Rollers the connect to the big 72th Gear Wheel which is the last Gear in the line of several Gears coming from the Stater Motor.

These 3 Rollers connect (in Fact they run) to the inner Area of the Wheel by spring Force and clamping Force. This whole Assembly sits in a Housing which is bolted to the Flywheel with 3 Bolt in M8 Thread. Over Time, these Bolts tend to get a little bit loose plus the Rollers and the Surface they're running at develop some flat Spots and chattering Marks too.

This is the common Scenario where the Problem starts to get heard.

If the Battery is cold and/or isn't in the best Shape anymore, the Rollers can't "bite" strong enough to the connecting Area and the Clutch lets go for a half a Turn. If The Rollers bite on a chattering Mark or a flat Spot the Connection they may hold on or let loose again. This Movement creates the hammering Sound and puts a Lot of more Force on the loose Bolts. This, of Course, allows even more uncontrolled Movement of the Clutch Assembly and a even more dysfunctional Clutch. As an nasty Side Effect, the Clutch can, and i know of two Cases where it actually did, cause the Starter to act as an Generator because the One Way Clutch wasn't a Clutch anymore but a solid Connection. This caused the Starter Motor to burn down on both Cases. I suspect a Lot more of these Cases, but there's not enough reliable Data for me to make a final Call.

I've seen a Lot of these Clutches and not one of them was even partially reusable. I have Buddies which tried to reuse some Parts, but they did the Job twice or even three Times in the End. I know a Bunch of Guys with heavily modified Engines, meaning 1500 cc Vmaxxes at least, and each and everybody of them had their Share of Head Ache in this Regard. The Record Holder of those is the Guy with a 1600 cc High Compression Motor who needed three complete Starter Clutch Assemblies each Season.

So, in the End, you have two Options to get the Job done

First Option is to buy a complete Set of new Parts, not just the small Set of Rollers, Springs, Caps, but also three Bolts, the Housing and the 72th Wheel, mount the Assembly exactly in centered Position to the Fly Wheel, red Loctite the Threads of the Bolts and don't forget to punch the End of Threads with a Center Punch. Then cross your Fingers, say a Prayer or both and hit the Starter Button after completing the Install. Feel good about the cheap (around 185 Bucks for the Parts) Repair but you need to keep the Procedure in Mind, because most likely you'll do that again some Time later.

Or

Second Option

Send your Rotor over to Dano in a 12x10x5 Inch Package, get it back with the Gaskets (optional), don't worry about having the Clutch Assembly mounted exactly centered to the Flywheel, just mount the Rotor and the new 72th Wheel and have a good Time while being a happy Camper.

This is because Dano will mount a much more sophisticated Clutch Assembly, which uses 18 Ellipses instead of three Rollers. The Ellipsis are spring loaded too and because of their Shape, not only bite at the 72th Wheel, but lock up the Connection between Rotor and 72th Wheel. Because of the ellipsoid Design, you won't need to worry about burning down your Starter Motor. I sure you weren't worried about that before, but it's good to be sure anyway. Not to mention, getting the Flywheel off the Crank Shaft can be a ... well ... how do it say this ... pita ...

Yes, this Upgrade is more expensive than Option 1 and it will need a little bit more of Downtime because of the Transit Times of the Parcel. But you'll be a happy Camper and never think about the Starter Clutch Issue again. Oh, except maybe the Times somebody tells you his 1Gen or Vmax produces a hammering Sound upon starting ...

Squeeze


Now for the nitty-gritty. All you need to do is remove your flywheel/rotor, send it and a check for $275.00 (US, VR discount and return shipping included, Canada shipping a bit more) to me and a couple of days later I will return it to you with the starter clutch mod already mounted ready to go back on your bike. You will also need to get the 2 left side cover gaskets and crush washer for the lower bolt on the middle gear cover. If you would like me to supply them, an additional $15.00 will be added ($290.00 total US). If you have any further questions, please don't hesitate to PM me or call me at 317-370-0139 anytime and I'll be happy to discuss it with you.

An additional note here for non-members wishing this mod- Price will be $295 US, gaskets priced the same.

Dan

Shipping address:

Dan Obert
8699 W 800 N
Indianapolis, In 46259-9402

Paypal & email addy: [email protected]
__________________

 

[MaxMidnight]

A reputable Yamaha mechanic told me that since I use Mobile 1 motorcycle oil, it's the leading cause to the problem. He went on to say that synthetic oil is so good that it makes it harder for the starter and the starter gears to properly engage, which causes premature failure of the starter gear.

I think this is one of those urban myths that proliferate but has no basis in fact.
I'd be inclined to ask him where he got this information from. My money would be that it came from a chap who knows another chap who's dogs uncle once knew someone who had a motor blow up that was running synth!

As far as I am aware synthetic oil is no more “slippery” than conventional oil. The tractive coefficient, which is a measure of the to which a lubricant facilitates sliding, is essentially the same for both mineral oils and synthetics. Synthetic oil is more uniform in molecular structure, which reduces frictional resistance but it is not more “slippery” than petroleum oil.
If yer man had said it reduces oil pressure he may have a point but the degree to which it does this isn't significant.

As stated above, it's more likely to be fair wear and tear or else the retaining screws have loosened off.

I'd also question the validity of spending money on the mod described.

If you intend to keep the bike and do tens of thousands of miles on the perhaps it is worth considering. However, given that yours lasted 38K it will be a few years before you need worry about a repeat performance.