What went wrong with the G2

[BikeShack]

There we go again (StarVMax lackeys) ...

I really wish this inter forum pissing contest would STOP once and for all...

It is completely useless postings like this that gets me scratching my head EVERY single time.... but whatever...


RANT Warning!>>>>>>>>>

The lack of self-confidence asides from those calling certain types of bikes 'girls bike' etc.... the "VMax / Other Bikes" discussion has been going on for quite a while.

Three years ago I was one of the first StarVmax (SVM) forum members to discuss the release of a future Ducati VMax Killer (which turned out to be much later the Diavel) At the time I received an onslaught of nasty comments in the SVM to my postings similar to this posting by ITgoes.

RANT over....>>>>>>>>


The bottom line is this... Ducati R&D had over two decades of information learned from probably deconstructing many G1 Vmax bikes to learn what worked and didnt work on that bike.

Results: Diavel--a killer fast bike with great looks

IMO what the Yamaha engineers DID NOT do as well was to incorporate a few very simple concepts from their sports bike design into the G2 VMax.

Results: G2 VMax -- A crappy dangerously 'torquy' frankstein (no puns intended 'fxstein'

)

The Yamaha engineers were either drunk on sake OR were listening to the WRONG audience when building the bike. This is obvious by some very fundamental flaws on the G2 such as seat height; gas mileage, poor ergonomics, miserable torque to traction control ration and poor weight distribution.

When my good friend Patrick Ahearn spoke about the VMax (on the promotional VMax video in 2008 http://www.starmotorcycles.com/star/msite/micro_v1.aspx while leaning against his wicked superchatrged G1) he said... the G1 burns out like a scolded ape... and that is all.. the G2 is the same old new bike -- an ok bike for brute force straight line acceleration.. as Hajime Hirao points out.. we want to give riders a great feeling of acceleration... what Mr. Hirao failed to understand on his quest for the ultimate acceleration addiction ... is that creating all that power without the proper consideration to safety is just plain WRONG!!!!!!



Quote:
Originally Posted by Itgoes
Diavel weighs much less than a Gen1.

As far a looks go, a friends wife described it as looking like "the girls version of a Gen 2 VMax" LOL I think she nailed it.

Off the line....down the line.....and at the finish line.......the VMax will eat it up.

 

[bazwell]

I don't get it.

Are you saying the Diavel is as ugly as a hat full of assholes?

Because if that's what you mean, then I agree whole heartedly.

 

[bazwell]

Or are you saying that bikes with lot's of safety features are for men who don't get enough "alone time" with Mom?

Because I'm thinking "Yeah, bring back men with balls of steel."

 

[BikeShack]

What I am saying ... is that the G2 VMax has flaws...

Cheers,
Amaury

Or are you saying that bikes with lot's of safety features are for men who don't get enough "alone time" with Mom?

Because I'm thinking "Yeah, bring back men with balls of steel."

 

[Rollie]

:ummm: " Don't argue with an idiot , they will just bring you down to their level and beat you with experience. "

 

[jbretthorton]

This dude "bikeshack" is bringing up old news... Guys don't fall into his trap, he mentioned that he does not like the shit storms, all he is doing is trying to start fires... look at his posts... No one that I know of personally has any bones against this forum or the Gen I, in fact we all love the Gen I's.
See this guy for what he is doing...and no I have not am are not part of his rants but, I for one am tired of his tactics...

Not gunna say any more...

 

[ninjaneer]

There we go again (StarVMax lackeys) ...

I really wish this inter forum pissing contest would STOP once and for all...

It is completely useless postings like this that gets me scratching my head EVERY single time.... but whatever...

RANT Warning!>>>>>>>>>

The lack of self-confidence asides from those calling certain types of bikes 'girls bike' etc.... the "VMax / Other Bikes" discussion has been going on for quite a while.

Three years ago I was one of the first StarVmax (SVM) forum members to discuss the release of a future Ducati VMax Killer (which turned out to be much later the Diavel) At the time I received an onslaught of nasty comments in the SVM to my postings similar to this posting by ITgoes.

RANT over....>>>>>>>>


The bottom line is this... Ducati R&D had over two decades of information learned from probably deconstructing many G1 Vmax bikes to learn what worked and didnt work on that bike.

Results: Diavel--a killer fast bike with great looks

IMO what the Yamaha engineers DID NOT do as well was to incorporate a few very simple concepts from their sports bike design into the G2 VMax.

Results: G2 VMax -- A crappy dangerously 'torquy' frankstein (no puns intended 'fxstein'

)

The Yamaha engineers were either drunk on sake OR were listening to the WRONG audience when building the bike. This is obvious by some very fundamental flaws on the G2 such as sit height; gas mileage, poor ergonomics, miserable torque to traction control ration and poor weight distribution.

When my good friend Patrick Ahearn spoke about the VMax (on the promotional VMax video in 2008 http://www.starmotorcycles.com/star/msite/micro_v1.aspx while leaning against his wicked superchatrged G1) he said... the G1 burns out like a scolded ape... and that is all.. the G2 is the same old new bike -- an ok bike for brute force straight line acceleration.. as Hajime Hirao points out.. we want to give riders a great feeling of acceleration... what Mr. Hirao failed to understand on his quest for the ultimate acceleration addiction ... is that creating all that power without the proper consideration to safety is just plain WRONG!!!!!!



Quote:
Originally Posted by Itgoes
Diavel weighs much less than a Gen1.

As far a looks go, a friends wife described it as looking like "the girls version of a Gen 2 VMax" LOL I think she nailed it.

Off the line....down the line.....and at the finish line.......the VMax will eat it up.

What "interforum" banter are you referring to? all i see in the information that you have provided, is that you think the G2 didn't live up to one's expectations and that Ducati's R&D outperformed Yamaha's when it came time to designing the Diavel and G2, respectively. OK. I'd venture to say that there are some guys here who share the same opinion, but so what? There are lot of guys who don't care about that and just plain love their G2s.

And so, there are guys whose wives think the Diavel runs on estrogene. so what? "Itgoes" is not allowed to not like the Diavel?

If you are trying to say that there are G2-haters here or there are G1-haters here, you are absolutely mistaken. This forum's members are "generation blind". One generation may quibble over the other, but it ain't ever over "G1 v G2" we all know one thing:

It ain't about your ride, it's about the Ride.

 

[KosRider]

BikeShack,
are you related to NoBody ? :confused2: Just asking.

 

[ninjaneer]

BikeShack,
are you related to NoBody ? :confused2: Just asking.

BWAAHAHHAHHA :rofl_200:

 

[BikeShack]

jbretthorton..... There we go.... another SVM crony. :sleep 2:Can smell those a mile away...

This is a forum... a posting is just a one man's opinion.

Now onto better things... Improvements... unless one can see what is wrong one cannot improve anything, improvements made hopefully with less money than the bike cost.

The G2 VMax seating position needs re-design ...period... none of that lower link BS... lowering the bike with a suspension link changes the rake geometry .. on the G1 dropping 3/4 inches minimized the steering wobble and with the 'furbur fix' provided a pretty good fix for the Max... on the G2 the lower link changes the bike geometry in an unfavorable way (unless all you want to do is go straight) ... it squats the darn 'monster' more so than the original design, thus changing raking.... bottom line an unresponsive beast becomes heavier and more unresponsive under normal driving conditions...

A re-shaped seat changes not only the riding position but also maintains the same raking geometry.... results: a more secure seating position, same geometry... a little better bike.....

It puzzles me sooooo much that most of the 'so called GURUS' work on more power, more power, more power,,,,,, forgetting the obvious... if you increase power but do not change the entire 'system' (handling, stopping power, maneuverability) to respond to the power increase, then you get s#@#% on your hands....

IMO (not humble) THAT was the biggest mistake on the G2... a 'total' system unbalance between improvements on power delivery and improvement on all other systems...

I will be posting later on on other mods that would make the VMax G2 a better bike... and these ideas have NOTHING to do with 'balls of steel' or more power.


Cheers,
Amaury

This dude "bikeshack" is bringing up old news... Guys don't fall into his trap, he mentioned that he does not like the shit storms, all he is doing is trying to start fires... look at his posts... No one that I know of personally has any bones against this forum or the Gen I, in fact we all love the Gen I's.
See this guy for what he is doing...and no I have not am are not part of his rants but, I for one am tired of his tactics...

Not gunna say any more...

 

[Buster Hymen]

jbretthorton..... There we go.... another SVM crony. :sleep 2:Can smell those a mile away...

This is a forum... a posting is just a one man's opinion.

Now onto better things... Improvements... unless one can see what is wrong one cannot improve anything, improvements made hopefully with less money than the bike cost.

The G2 VMax seating position needs re-design ...period... none of that lower link BS... lowering the bike with a suspension link changes the rake geometry .. on the G1 dropping 3/4 inches minimized the steering wobble and with the 'furbur fix' provided a pretty good fix for the Max... on the G2 the lower link changes the bike geometry in an unfavorable way (unless all you want to do is go straight) ... it squats the darn 'monster' more so than the original design, thus changing raking.... bottom line an unresponsive beast becomes heavier and more unresponsive under normal driving conditions...

A re-shaped seat changes not only the riding position but also maintains the same raking geometry.... results: a more secure seating position, same geometry... a little better bike.....

It puzzles me sooooo much that most of the 'so called GURUS' work on more power, more power, more power,,,,,, forgetting the obvious... if you increase power but do not change the entire 'system' (handling, stopping power, maneuverability) to respond to the power increase, then you get s#@#% on your hands....

IMO (not humble) THAT was the biggest mistake on the G2... a 'total' system unbalance between improvements on power delivery and improvement on all other systems...

I will be posting later on on other mods that would make the VMax G2 a better bike... and these ideas have NOTHING to do with 'balls of steel' or more power.


Cheers,
Amaury

I don't know... I think saying something needs improvement is subjective to the person saying it. I know people that own top of the line Ducattis, yet change stuff on it because they believe it needs "improvement". I was a bit skeptical about the G2 when it came out. I thought they had missed the mark with the power to weight ratio. However after studying them and having ridden a few of them, I can see I was wrong. I think the brakes and suspension are pretty good on the G2s, so I don't know how you would improve it.

 

[BikeShack]

You have a good point there in regards to the brake and suspension quality in the G2 ...

your posting got me thinking ....

It seems that with the G2 we have a good set of isolated systems... I mean the 6POT front brake system is really good and the upsidedown front and single rear suspension systems are darn good.

I guess maybe the problem is that maybe the Yamaha folks were so obsessed with the engine that the entire system was sacrificed for the looks and power of the engine.

What do you think?

Amaury

I don't know... I think saying something needs improvement is subjective to the person saying it. I know people that own top of the line Ducattis, yet change stuff on it because they believe it needs "improvement". I was a bit skeptical about the G2 when it came out. I thought they had missed the mark with the power to weight ratio. However after studying them and having ridden a few of them, I can see I was wrong. I think the brakes and suspension are pretty good on the G2s, so I don't know how you would improve it.

 

[Rusty McNeil]

I see someone purposely trying to stir the pot...............

What's the point.....????

This same crap went on with the 350Z when it came out, old school Z purists that couldn't stand the new better performing V6, and the new guys all thinking the old school ride was a turd. Combined with everyone being really vocal about it and trying to piss on each others community (there were/are maybe 9-10 forums for the car) instead of enjoying the fact that both offer alot in different ways......Then they end up getting personal, exhibiting all sorts of paranoid ideas about other forums and ....The just start posting controversial comments just to see what sort of response they could get and thriving on that alone........All behaviour that wouldn't be exhibited in person and the absence of which makes thios forum a great place to hang........blah, blah, blah.


I welcome you to the forum along with everyone else and very kindly suggest you quit bringing up StarvmaxForum, no one cares.........No one wants to create interforum pissing contests where they don't exist....I don't think I've heard or seen SVM brought up over here more than 3-4 times in the years I've been on here and even then not in any negative way..........If it IS going on over there directed toward here we care even less.....ignoring it is the best way to deal with it.......

...So please leave the conflict over there....

And do please bring all advice and knowledge you have to offer over here with you, it is quite welcome here as are you.....


If you want to discuss Gen 1 versus Gen 2 we can do that all day long

I love the Gen II, would love to have one, and have ridden 1/2 dozen different ones, the first ride when I discovered that you could spin the rear tire throttle only when rolling 40-50mph I fell in love with it..... the bike 'effin handles fantastic for it's weight, probably better than ANY bike in that weight class...
....Yes it's too heavy, I was very dissapointed when the bike came out at that weight,and also dissapointed it didn't come out with a more "streetfighter'esque" look, but that was just personal preference........
A commitment to a V4 platform, and a commitment to hitting close to the 200hp mark, are two parameters dictating the wieght, a V4 is heavy period.........How do you get around that??

.....The only way to get a Gen 1 under 580 or so and still be streetable and confortable is to throw away that boat anchor of a motor, My 1540 is going to come in at maybe 175Hp I hope when I ever get a chance to bolt all those parts together but it's STILL going to be a boat anchor of a motor.......But it's the nature of the beast and can't be helped...

Many say they would have been happy with a "better" version of the Gen I but if a "better version" came out at a weight light enough to be where I would have liked it to be it wouldn't be making any sort of OMG Hp and would be "just another bike". Maybe they could have built a smaller higher revving V4 with the same HP (Ducati-$60,000) but the torque wouldn't have been there.........the Vmax is famous for straight line performance andf that's what Yammi did, tossing in better handling to boot....The suspension and frame on the thing incorporated every bit of sportbike tech they could throw in if you truly look at it objectively....

As far as safety, I don't get that one, it's got TOO many nanny features on it as far as I'm concerned......fly by wire, so we can decide how much throttle you can have...'effin B.S.

 

[jbretthorton]

Throttle by wire issue, I sort of agree with but Tim Nash's re-flash takes care of the restrictions from the factory, he has optimized the throttle position / AFR for best power... as much as a 25% increase at a given tps setting...

 

[KJShover]

..... I think the brakes and suspension are pretty good on the G2s, so I don't know how you would improve it.

One in my garage to play with would be a good start. :rofl_200:

I guess maybe the problem is that maybe the Yamaha folks were so obsessed with the engine that the entire system was sacrificed for the looks and power of the engine.

What do you think?

I'll have to go through my magazine articles, but I'm pretty sure the same thing was said about the Gen I. The new Vmax was never meant to be a canyon carver, just a boulevard pounder and a stoplight killer. I think it fills that niche nicely.
However, the Diavel is a Tq monster in it's own right. From the tests I've seen it's second only to the Gen II itself. Is it ugly? No more than the Gen II IMO. But, both of them have that industrial, raw look to them that I find good looking. There are many people that think streetfighter bikes are ugly.
I, personally like the looks of them and can appreciate the talent and garage engineering that goes into making them. They, like the Diavel and Vmaxes, don't appeal to everyone.
I've been asked several times if I want a Gen II. I don't want anything, I still want the stuff I have. I tend to hang on to stuff I like for many years. Hell, a Gen III or IV might be out when I'm ready to get another motorcycle. I'm still having fun tweaking the Vmax I have now.

 

[jbretthorton]

I personally like the Diavel..

 

[ouchez]

The G-1 could have been retooled and made a better bike than the G-2 and lighter, cheaper.

The G-2 is probably having horrible sales figures and may well be dropped by Yama.

I love my 05, but my next and last will probably be a Raider S, lotsa torque, a simple machine and you are out of the performance wars. Just ride and relax.

If you truly do want performance, just get the new ZX-14.

I do have to agree with the OP, there were some big mistakes, omissions, in the design of the G-2.

O

 

[BikeShack]

JB: I am not familiar with the throttle position sensor work that has been done... can u tell me a bit more about that?

Throttle by wire issue, I sort of agree with but Tim Nash's re-flash takes care of the restrictions from the factory, he has optimized the throttle position / AFR for best power... as much as a 25% increase at a given tps setting...

 

[BikeShack]

Ouchez: that is exactly the same thing that a couple of my VMax rider friends told me.

For the money we can work on the lighter G1 and get tons of performance...

I am curious to know how feasible would a chain conversion be on the G2... I am guessing that tossing the swing arm out would improve some of that.

Amaury

The G-1 could have been retooled and made a better bike than the G-2 and lighter, cheaper.

The G-2 is probably having horrible sales figures and may well be dropped by Yama.

I love my 05, but my next and last will probably be a Raider S, lotsa torque, a simple machine and you are out of the performance wars. Just ride and relax.

If you truly do want performance, just get the new ZX-14.

I do have to agree with the OP, there were some big mistakes, omissions, in the design of the G-2.

O

 

[gamorg02]

Bikeshack -> opinions are fine. brining up 'drama' that no one knows about here is only furthering said 'drama'. state your opinions without dragging other forums into it. the vmf, as far as i know has never had a problem with starvmax so i would prefer to keep it that way.