92 Jap Import wont shut off

[1200fan]

Oop forgot to mention...

I haven't tried properly starting the bike, just prodding the starter with the choke off. At the moment the airbox is off the bike with wires over the top of the engine, and the carbs taped over to stop debris getting in. I've been unsure about starting it properly in this state but guess I should be ok for a short time.

When I last had it properly running, when discovering the problem with it not turning off, I THINK that with the kill switch off it turns but doesn't catch. I would need to check on this again though, my memory doesn't work well at the best of times, ha ha!

I have had a look at a friend of mines' Vmax though, who has an '85 Canadian full power. There is nothing at all until the ignition and kill switch are on.

 

[bazwell]

Dude, I still think it's related to the kill relay. It's either faulty, or it's had some of the wires shorted together.

The wiring diagram for this part is severely lacking, I know, I've been there.
I bodged my bike to keep it on the road once, and I got exactly the same symptoms you have.
You can crank the motor with no key, but it won't start.
You can't shut down the motor with the key, you must shut it down with the kill switch.

I ran like that until I got a new relay. I didn't keep a note of the pinout or the wiring diagram, but I did make a plug adapter which I still have. From what I have here, there are 9 pins on the relay unit. If you short the L/W to W/G wire, and the Br to Br/W wire that will cause the problem you have.

Trust me, the ignition switch probably has nothing to do with it!
Maybe just try your mates kill relay?

(When my phone recharges I'll try and post a pic of the adapter)

 

[Miles Long]

My apologies Miles, and I'm very, very grateful for your help.

No problem. We are here for you.

It's just that the brown wire to the dummy tank fuse box is energised on its own, with the ignition switch disconnected and it's a case of finding out how its getting this power without needing the red ignition wire.
Yes , You have to trace this wire back, and find out how it is getting power from the battery.

Having said that, the bike can still turn over with the ignition fuse pulled out, so maybe the brown wire is being bypassed somehow. No, this means that the red and white wire(going to the kill switch), is receiving power from somewhere other than the fuse box - trace it back and you will probably find it's got a pigtail wire connected, that goes to a live source.

Ninjaneer, cheers for the tip on wiring the R/R. I will have another check today, but I think there is just the one wire from the battery terminal to the starter relay, so the R/R isn't connected directly. The red wire goes from the R/R to the loom, and the black ground wire is connected directly to the battery negative terminal. I checked your link, that RR looks normal. 3-wire connector to the stator, red wire to battery (via the crimp connection), black wire to ground.

I don't have the standard R/R though - instead I have this:

http://www.electrexworld.co.uk/acatalog/RR48.html

There is a 4-pin female connector coming off this which the red loom/black ground wires are connected to, so there are two pins free. This is where modifications have been made. The OEM wiring diagram shows two separate connectors - one for the red, that feeds into the crimped wire(then to the battery, via the main fuse), and one for the black, that goes to a multi-use ground connection. You also contradict yourself - above you say the black wire goes direct to the battery negative terminal, here you say it goes into a 4-pin connector. In any event, this 4-pin connector is not what the RR wires should be connected to - what are the wire colours of the connector? Are they blue, black/yellow, red/black, and red/white? If so, I think this is the "root cause" of your problems - these wires are from the starter circuit cut-off relay. But first, trace these four wires back to the source, see where they originate. One step at a time!

I also need to figure out if this needs a connection to the frame to be earthed - if so I need to find a way to bolt it down - I found it shoved between the frame rail and the fuel tank.
The RR is intended to be bolted to the rear of the right hand side footpeg mounting bracket. If you take this assembly off, you should find two tapped holes. You have the more modern, finned RR - the one with the separate ground wire. The early RRs' didn't have the ground wire - they depended on the bolted connection to earth it. In any event, you should bolt the RR to it's intended location, otherwise the vibration may destroy it.
Cheers!

 

[bazwell]

Here ya go.

 

[Miles Long]

Dude, I still think it's related to the kill relay. It's either faulty, or it's had some of the wires shorted together.

The wiring diagram for this part is severely lacking, I know, I've been there.

I bodged my bike to keep it on the road once, and I got exactly the same symptoms you have.
You can crank the motor with no key, but it won't start.
You can't shut down the motor with the key, you must shut it down with the kill switch.

I ran like that until I got a new relay. I didn't keep a note of the pinout or the wiring diagram, but I did make a plug adapter which I still have. From what I have here, there are 9 pins on the relay unit. If you short the L/W to W/G wire, and the Br to Br/W wire that will cause the problem you have.

Trust me, the ignition switch probably has nothing to do with it!
Maybe just try your mates kill relay?

Another clue that it might be the relay - both the neutral switch and the clutch switch/side stand switch take their power from the relay - and you stated originally that these switches had been bypassed. Check to see what(if any) wires are connected to the relay, or if it is even there.
Like Mr. Bazwell says, the easiest way to troubleshoot the relay is to replace it with a known good one - providing the input wiring has not been tampered with. If so, nothing will work as intended.

 

[1200fan]

Cheers again everyone, loads of great info, I will get back to the bike and have a looksee.

Bazwell, yep my starter cut out relay was hot to the touch when I last had the bike switched on so I think this may be faulty as well. I have the European loom which has a seperate turn signal and seperate starter cut off relay.

I'd tried byppasing the SCOR by connecting the red/white and red/black terminals to see if the relay can be bypassed, and the bike came on with the fuel pump priming whilst trying to connect the battery! This is with ignition and kill switch off.

Miles, the sidestand switch has been properly bypassed - the blue/yellow and the black wires have been cut and soldered together. The clutch switch connector has been disconnected and left dangling by the side.

I'd thought about the clutch switch connector, but the bike can aleady start without the switch being connected so didn't think that much of it. I will connect it back up and see what happens as well.

Thanks again!

 

[bazwell]

I'd tried byppasing the SCOR by connecting the red/white and red/black terminals to see if the relay can be bypassed, and the bike came on with the fuel pump priming whilst trying to connect the battery! This is with ignition and kill switch off.

Dunno what this would do, but the relay works by earthing the starter relay. It's the same wire that has the start button in line. The ignition switch isn't part of that circuit except that when the ignition is off, the SCOR can't energise. So, by shorting 2 terminals at the relay the start circuit is constantly "on" because the battery +ve connects straight to the starter solenoid. Fusebox is thereby bypassed!

Sorry it took me a while, but it was a few years ago, and I think I might have... um... what's the word? :ummm:
:rofl_200:

 

[1200fan]

Cheers Bazwell, so looks like the relay can't be bypassed. A replacement one is on the cards then.

Well today I got the reg/rec removed and my apologies to you Miles but it's not the Electrex one after all. This is where it was located between battery box and frame:



This is the 4-pin connector for the RR. Red wire going to the connector is from the loom crimp and the black is the ground going straight to the battery negative:



And this is the RR removed. Definitely not the Electrex type and there is no seperate ground wire. One connector is 3 yellow wires which go to the stator, the other is the 4-pin connector:



Which has 2 red and 2 green wires:



And these double up into the same terminal at the connector going into the RR:



I also managed to unwrap a part of the loom I wasn't able to get to before and found this on the red ignition wire! Always the last place you look :bang head::



I unrwapped the tape and the wire looks in bad shape. Putting the wire in place in the loom this area goes right up against the earth splice for the fuel pump relay. There was insulating tape on the earth and the red, but if there is a short between those two wires it might explain the fuel pump clicking?

This is my SCOR as well. It looks in bad shape and the part that holds the connector in place is broken so I may do to replace it anyways and undo the bypass attempt:



So does anyone know what the RR is? One of the MOSFET ones maybe?

Thanks again for all your help, its much appreciated :biglaugh:

 

[1200fan]

Hey all, just one more go before I admit to being a useless moron and get for a replacement loom.

I've been going through the connector terminals using a light-up circuit tester and the blue/white starter wire is live where it comes from the starter relay, going through to the connector for the R/H switchgear.

This is with the ignition off and kill switch off.

I should have checked the red/white at the starter relay connector as well - looking at the diagram this would go to the SCOR, which would then energise the red/black which would go to the fuel pump/kill switch...

I know this starter wire is negative switched, but should the wire/starter relay be live in this way? If not, what could be making it live? The blu/white is the starter motor wire so maybe starter motor has a bad ground?

Could be the reg/rec as well?

Many thanks again everyone

 

[ninjaneer]

i'm thinking more and more that there is something the matter with your SCOR. you'll be able measure a voltage reading on the blue/white starter relay wire, BUT ONLY when the red/white SCOR wire is live. the red/white wire will ONLY be live if the kill switch is closed/on. a closed/on kill switch will ONLY be live if the 10A "ignition" fuse is intact. an intact 10A fuse will be ONLY be live if ignition's brown wire is live. the ignition's brown wire will ONLY be live if the ignition switch is closed/on. a close/on ignition switch will ONLY be live if the 30A main fuse in intact. of course all wires in between the components need to be solid.

 

[1200fan]

Nice one, thanks Ninjaneer :eusa_dance: - will have a look this evening

 

[Miles Long]

Hey all, just one more go before I admit to being a useless moron and get for a replacement loom.

I've been going through the connector terminals using a light-up circuit tester and the blue/white starter wire is live where it comes from the starter relay, going through to the connector for the R/H switchgear.

The blue /white wireprovides the ground connection for the +red/white wire at the starter relay, which in turn energizes the starter motor terminals within the relay. If you disconnect the two-wire connector at the relay, you should be able to read continuity (not voltage) between the blue/white and a good ground(use the negative post) only when the start switch is pressedAt the same time, with the connector apart, you should not read any voltage at the red/white wire, with the ignition switch off, as per OEM configuration. All as per Ninja's last post.

I should have checked the red/white at the starter relay connector as well - looking at the diagram this would go to the SCOR, which would then energise the red/black which would go to the fuel pump/kill switch...see above, plus...I believe you may be thinking backwards. The power going to the starter relay, via the red/white wire, comes from the starter circuitcut-off relay, but only when the s.c.c.o.relay is energized, by the red/black wire from the kill switch, which in turn is fed from the red/white wire from the ignition fuse in the fuse box, which in turn gets power from the brown wire, which in turn gets its power from the red wire at the ignition switch. Again, see Ninja's last post

I know this starter wire is negative switched, but should the wire/starter relay be live in this way? If not, what could be making it live? The blue/white is the starter motor wire so maybe starter motor has a bad ground? The blue/white should never be "live", only the red/white (see my first comment). The blue/white does have another input however - the diode block (under the faux tank). I believe testing procedures for this can be found in the Yamaha and aftermarket service manuals. The ground for the starter motor can be easily checked by jumping the feed wire directly to the+battery post - the motor should turn over. Cheers!

 

[thetank]

The first thing i would do is listen to everyone else and rewire it back to factory...after that i would start from the beginning and wander why there is power even available to the starter when your key is off. i could be wrong but i think it shold be dead with the key off...just to clear this up i am going to go check mine here in a minute..i would definetely start unhooking connectors and backtracking till you find out why it is energized with the switch unhooked...should be pretty simple...power from battery to sylenoid...power from battery to fuse box..out fo main fuse and to ignition...through kill switch to starter button...out to sylenoid...that is just the starting circuit right? you shouldnt have power going out past the ignition switch to the start button without the key on..i could be wrong....but i would find out where your starter button is getting power from by working backwards from the switch..i just dont understand why power would have been jumped past the ignition....i would really think that it is your key switch or the wiring on it bieng wrong

 

[1200fan]

Hi all, just a quick update on this before heading back to the bike...

I was recommended to contact Sean Morley about getting a loom sent over from the USA - he sent me a message back saying to first check the starter relay - if there's power at the red wire all the time then the wire has fused or relay has gone bad, and it won't let the bike shut off.

My relay has these symptoms so Evilbay was scoured and a starter relay was found - checked the picture and it was the right version with the two wires headed to the connector.

Got the relay a few days ago and it was the wrong type, I had got sent the one for the pre 89 Maxes with the single blue/white wire.

The Ebay seller was great and is sending the correct one over, so fingers crossed that this is the answer...

In the meantime I have prepped the loom again, re-taped and heatshrunk over the rest of the connections, and wrapped the loom in amalgamating tape.

Also sorted/replaced both valve cover gaskets, and broke the coolant drain assy while draining the coolant...:bang head:

I'll let you know what happens when the relay gets here.

As always, many thanks again to everyone for their help on here, this is a great forum!:clapping:

 

[Redbone]

Hi all, just a quick update on this before heading back to the bike...

I was recommended to contact Sean Morley about getting a loom sent over from the USA - he sent me a message back saying to first check the starter relay - if there's power at the red wire all the time then the wire has fused or relay has gone bad, and it won't let the bike shut off.

My relay has these symptoms so Evilbay was scoured and a starter relay was found - checked the picture and it was the right version with the two wires headed to the connector.

Got the relay a few days ago and it was the wrong type, I had got sent the one for the pre 89 Maxes with the single blue/white wire.

The Ebay seller was great and is sending the correct one over, so fingers crossed that this is the answer...

In the meantime I have prepped the loom again, re-taped and heatshrunk over the rest of the connections, and wrapped the loom in amalgamating tape.

Also sorted/replaced both valve cover gaskets, and broke the coolant drain assy while draining the coolant...:bang head:

I'll let you know what happens when the relay gets here.

As always, many thanks again to everyone for their help on here, this is a great forum!:clapping:

Good deal, I hope this fixes you up! Glad the Ebay'r was a good one!

 

[1200fan]

Wotcher again all,

Just a quick update but I think the electrics have been sorted!

It turned out to be the starter relay after all. After getting the correct one through, I fitted it on, tidied up the wiring some more and made a new ignition wire going from ignition switch to the reg/rec and the main fuse.

With kill switch off and ignition on I can still operate the lights and I get the neutral light on the dash, but it doesn't turn over.

With kill and ignition off, the bike is off completely.

Kill and ignition on and the bike turns over on the starter button.

Now to sort the broken coolant drain assembly and then it can start properly again!

Many thanks again to you all for your help! :eusa_dance:

 

[ninjaneer]

congrats. electrical gremlins are the absolute worst.

 

[1200fan]

Hi everyone, sorry I've not been on here a great deal recently but just thought I'd give another quick update...

...which is that the bike now starts on the button and has been on the road the last few months with almost no problems. The first ride, apart from a quick test run, was a 300 mile round trip to Belgium and back! Nervous times, but the bike ran great. It's just been MOTd too.

VBoost only works occasionally and the radiator fan's just conked out, I'll hopefully get these sorted shortly.

Many thanks again to everyone who replied on this thread for their help, and to Sean Morley for diagnosing the starter relay. Cheers and all the best for the New Year! :eusa_dance:

 

[smokegetsinyoureyes]

Hi Just reading through your posts, I have a 95 jap impot, it is speed restricted to 115mph in the speedo, also none of the european or canadian/us wiring diagrams seem to suit, mine also has the fuel res switch fitted below the main switch gear on the handlebar, there is only a hi/low headlamp switch, no off position, and a pass switch for flashing hi beam. good to hear you finally got sorted though, cheers, neill........

 

[1200fan]

Yeah I have that same setup with the fuel reserve switch mounted under the switchgear. Same as an FJ1200 I think?

As luck would have it the wires were knackered on mine and fell out of the switch while I was inspecting the rest of the wires in the main switchgear...I managed to get the reserve switch apart and solder the wires back on. Haven't used the reserve switch yet, though don't want to test it so I've always filled up early!

Theres a bypass for getting around the 115mph restriction in the speedo, its described on this forum somewhere. Mine has the max speed reading as 115mph. I may just take the whole thing off and fit a bicycle speedo on instead...

Last week it started blowing the 15A signal fuse when the RH indicator went on - had to do the rest of the journey with no lower dash and no indicators. The bikes apart again at the moment while I find out whats going on...