Age Discrimination - What are some thoughts?
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KJShover
Proud Vmax lover
Affirmative action is a joke, not to mention very bad for business. A long time ago I applied for a job. They hired a native woman instead. Now for the rest of the story.... The aformentioned woman was a student in the AutoCAD class I was teaching at the university. She was a "D" student. But because of the points the company recieved cause they hired a woman minority she was hired. 6 months later she was let go cause she failed to perform her job duties that were required. This cost the company time and money. When I worked for ARCO there was a guy that was placed in central CAD with the rest of us. While we were turning out approximately 18 projects a month per eash person, he would only produce 4. This went on for a year before they moved him again. This killed the moral of the department and basically pissed everyone off to the point the production went down. He would walk around singing this song he made up about "riding the gravy train" and if ARCO tried to get rid of him he would play the race card. Once he left it took about 6 months for things to get back to normal. There are plenty of skilled employees out there with many diverse ethnic background that would fit in the workplace well. I think it should be the ability to do the job that gets a person hired, not the points your company gets for hiring minorities.
Age discrimination is something I haven't delt with. I'm in the middle of changing careers at 44-years-old after an injury. I can see both sides of the argument though. The side of the business would want an employee that is going to stick around for a good while. That way the get the most out of training and employee return. While the older person may have a boat load of expirenece, they aren't as likely to stick around as long as the younger professional. That is the reason I chose the new profession that I did. It affords me to put in another 20 years or so.
old timer
Well-Known Member
AA was the birth/beginning of " Political Correctness "...how's that monster grown...? AD is a state of mind in the world of business , however the company can make the most money...that's the extent of age discrimination .
Sorry to be so brief but that is where we're at in this day and age...everything was needed and expected yesterday...:confused2:
Sorry to be so brief but that is where we're at in this day and age...everything was needed and expected yesterday...:confused2:
Like KJ, I'm going to be 42 in one week, and just about to finish up a degree to change careers. Sucks that just because of age the cards are stacked against you.
The only experience I have really had with Affirmative Action was trying to get a job at the automakers 20 years ago...if you weren't a minority or a female the attitude was don't even bother applying. Oh, same for the railroads then. I didn't really want to work for either of those but those were the best paying jobs back then. Minimum wage was $3.35/hr and construction/mechanics/machinists/welders were $6 to $10 (if you were lucky).
The only experience I have really had with Affirmative Action was trying to get a job at the automakers 20 years ago...if you weren't a minority or a female the attitude was don't even bother applying. Oh, same for the railroads then. I didn't really want to work for either of those but those were the best paying jobs back then. Minimum wage was $3.35/hr and construction/mechanics/machinists/welders were $6 to $10 (if you were lucky).
Some items to read:
http://www.democratandchronicle.com/article/20110719/BUSINESS/110719035/PAETEC-subsidiary-pay-1M-age-discrimination-case?odyssey=mod|newswell|text|Home|s
http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/age.cfm
http://www.dol.gov/dol/topic/discrimination/agedisc.htm
http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_01/29cfr1625_01.html
http://assets.aarp.org/www.aarp.org_/articles/money/employers/age_discrimination.pdf
http://ideas.repec.org/p/crr/crrwob/wob_5.html
be sure to look under the topic "Related Research" towards the end of the page.
One of the easiest ways to find material is to consult the bibliographies and footnotes for any of the research articles which appear in what are known as, "refereed journals." Do NOT in a research paper refer to a "wicki" article as anything 'factual,' a professor who sees that will usually wield their red pen with broad strokes to discount any further information based on it, even though it may be true. "Wicki" articles are not ever to be used as a basis of research papers! Just don't do it.
Going to your local library or the college or university online 'learning resource center' website will usually provide you with access to these 'refereed journals.' You don't need the entire journal article, you can usually use the abstract (the short explanation of the research question, the scientific methodology used to determine if the scientists' hypothesis is true or not, and the research results) to get enough info to know if the content of the research paper published will be of any use to you. The abstract will appear before the article itself, and immediately follow the topic title and the list of academics who did the research, and at what college or university.
Use footnotes and document in your bibliography all sources of content. Even if you paraphrase and attribute in the body of your paper whose work it came from, you still need to footnote and include the resource in your bibliography.
Do not 'cut & paste' content, that is a lazy way of doing a paper, and at a minimum can raise questions of plagiarism, especially if you do not attribute the source. In my institution, that will usually get you an 'F' for the course.
An eight page paper is something I could do in a day easily, and you should try to exceed the minimum page # requirement, that will earn the teacher's interest in seeing you did a good job, but you don't have to give them 25 pp., they probably have 35 other students to grade, or more. The title page and the bibliography and footnotes do not count towards your 'page count.'
Remember to use whatever style of organization for the body of the paper is required, refer to your syllabus, contact your professor or teacher with specific questions, but don't whine, "how do I do this paper?" You are probably being asked to do it A.P.A.-style. This is where the internet can help you to understand the formatting to do it correctly, as well as your 'learning resource center,' the library.
You are probably required to 'double-space' your body of work, this is A.P.A.-style and also eases eyestrain for your weary professor. When you follow direction and make their job easier, you make grading easier for them, a good thing!
Don't forget to conclude your paper with a summation of your findings. Your paper's length is too-short to do a meta-analysis of the subject (go-ahead, you can Google it) but you should be able to tie the introductory paragraph and the end of the paper together to show how the topic was probed in your research, and your conclusions. This is also the place to put-forth additional questions for more research, and to conceptualize how the research might be conducted.
Now, I am going to tell you how to generate the 'benefit of the doubt' for yourself. If the topic is one which has been of-interest in the scholarly research of your professor (did they write refereed journal articles on the topic which have been published? Did they write your textbook or edit it on the subject?) be sure to include citations to their work in the body, the bibliography and the footnotes of your paper. I am not guaranteeing you an "A" but believe me, it helps!
Proofread your paper, if you aren't strong at that you can use software like 'grammatik' and 'spellchek.' Just remember sometimes they are wrong too, especially with technical, topic-specific, or trade terms.
Computers are wonderful resources. They make your work so-much easier than what I had to work-with when I first went to school. I used to deal with the "Reader's Guide to Periodical Literature" in many-pound-weight green volumes lining rows of the library, where you can do a far-better job at you home laptop or p.c/Apple, and accomplish it more-quickly. Be glad you don't have to deal with carbon paper, correcting fluid, and mimeographs (tools of the antediluvian age of knowledge before 'microcomputers' as they came to be known, came into popularity.
Happy research, and remember to proofread thoroughly. If it doesn't sound good to you, it won't to your professor either. :compute:
http://www.democratandchronicle.com/article/20110719/BUSINESS/110719035/PAETEC-subsidiary-pay-1M-age-discrimination-case?odyssey=mod|newswell|text|Home|s
http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/age.cfm
http://www.dol.gov/dol/topic/discrimination/agedisc.htm
http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_01/29cfr1625_01.html
http://assets.aarp.org/www.aarp.org_/articles/money/employers/age_discrimination.pdf
http://ideas.repec.org/p/crr/crrwob/wob_5.html
be sure to look under the topic "Related Research" towards the end of the page.
One of the easiest ways to find material is to consult the bibliographies and footnotes for any of the research articles which appear in what are known as, "refereed journals." Do NOT in a research paper refer to a "wicki" article as anything 'factual,' a professor who sees that will usually wield their red pen with broad strokes to discount any further information based on it, even though it may be true. "Wicki" articles are not ever to be used as a basis of research papers! Just don't do it.
Going to your local library or the college or university online 'learning resource center' website will usually provide you with access to these 'refereed journals.' You don't need the entire journal article, you can usually use the abstract (the short explanation of the research question, the scientific methodology used to determine if the scientists' hypothesis is true or not, and the research results) to get enough info to know if the content of the research paper published will be of any use to you. The abstract will appear before the article itself, and immediately follow the topic title and the list of academics who did the research, and at what college or university.
Use footnotes and document in your bibliography all sources of content. Even if you paraphrase and attribute in the body of your paper whose work it came from, you still need to footnote and include the resource in your bibliography.
Do not 'cut & paste' content, that is a lazy way of doing a paper, and at a minimum can raise questions of plagiarism, especially if you do not attribute the source. In my institution, that will usually get you an 'F' for the course.
An eight page paper is something I could do in a day easily, and you should try to exceed the minimum page # requirement, that will earn the teacher's interest in seeing you did a good job, but you don't have to give them 25 pp., they probably have 35 other students to grade, or more. The title page and the bibliography and footnotes do not count towards your 'page count.'
Remember to use whatever style of organization for the body of the paper is required, refer to your syllabus, contact your professor or teacher with specific questions, but don't whine, "how do I do this paper?" You are probably being asked to do it A.P.A.-style. This is where the internet can help you to understand the formatting to do it correctly, as well as your 'learning resource center,' the library.
You are probably required to 'double-space' your body of work, this is A.P.A.-style and also eases eyestrain for your weary professor. When you follow direction and make their job easier, you make grading easier for them, a good thing!
Don't forget to conclude your paper with a summation of your findings. Your paper's length is too-short to do a meta-analysis of the subject (go-ahead, you can Google it) but you should be able to tie the introductory paragraph and the end of the paper together to show how the topic was probed in your research, and your conclusions. This is also the place to put-forth additional questions for more research, and to conceptualize how the research might be conducted.
Now, I am going to tell you how to generate the 'benefit of the doubt' for yourself. If the topic is one which has been of-interest in the scholarly research of your professor (did they write refereed journal articles on the topic which have been published? Did they write your textbook or edit it on the subject?) be sure to include citations to their work in the body, the bibliography and the footnotes of your paper. I am not guaranteeing you an "A" but believe me, it helps!
Proofread your paper, if you aren't strong at that you can use software like 'grammatik' and 'spellchek.' Just remember sometimes they are wrong too, especially with technical, topic-specific, or trade terms.
Computers are wonderful resources. They make your work so-much easier than what I had to work-with when I first went to school. I used to deal with the "Reader's Guide to Periodical Literature" in many-pound-weight green volumes lining rows of the library, where you can do a far-better job at you home laptop or p.c/Apple, and accomplish it more-quickly. Be glad you don't have to deal with carbon paper, correcting fluid, and mimeographs (tools of the antediluvian age of knowledge before 'microcomputers' as they came to be known, came into popularity.
Happy research, and remember to proofread thoroughly. If it doesn't sound good to you, it won't to your professor either. :compute:
Congratulations on the accomplishment of retraining via additional formal education to allow your career switch. As we age, that is harder to do, we don't have the energy to do what we once did as young adults. Family commitments often are an impediment to having success in what you just did, glad you were able to initiate/complete your studies.
The term I use to describe the ability to re-train for additional obligations in the job market in your current vocation, or to prepare to enter another field, and then to stay-abreast of ongoing developments, is lifelong learning. The reality of today's workplace being relatively volatile and unstable is here to stay. People will no-longer hold one job for their entire professional lives, they will no-longer stay in one geographic location and pass their accumulated wealth to future generations who will do better financially than they did. Some people may, many will not. Flexibility will be important.
The Federal Minimum Wage was $3.35 in 1981.
Adjusted for inflation using the CPI-U (Consumer Price Index for All Urban Consumers).
Source: U.S. Department of Labor. Web: http://www.dol.gov/esa/whd/flsa/.
Source: U.S. Department of Labor. Web: http://www.dol.gov/esa/whd/flsa/.
You're getting older, it may have seemed like 20, but it was actually 30 years ago!
In FL, wages as you referred to (skilled trades: $6-10/hr.) were the standard in the early/mid 1970's.
My brother just retired from Amtrack after a career which began part-time in the period after he graduated from one of the best journalism programs in the country, he had a full-ride from one of the big daily newspaper publishing companies, Gannett. Work for him was in a NE daily newspaper but he wanted to try something else. He took a job with Penn Central as a fireman (not a firefighter!), and over time, became an engineer. He was the #1 seniority in the Boston yard when he retired. His last retraining of significant importance was to qualify as an operator of the Boston to Washington DC 'bullet train, the Acela (lifelong learning). He has shared his views on affirmative action with me. In this day and age, those programs may find themselves phased out of existance, especially if the Republicans regain control of the White House and both branches of Congress.
First I would like a bipartisan effort to fund the daily functions of government and a return to a balanced budget. Our overseas financial obligations are going to make that a hard thing to achieve. Research the term, generational accounting.
We are facing a time in-which our children are likely to not do as-well financially as their parents, something which has not happened in generations.
KJShover
Proud Vmax lover
I will have say say, returning to acedamia for a different degree has been entertaining. My teachers were either born the year or after I graduated highschool. especially after I comment on how the university has changed since 1986.
Fire-Medic...you sound like my Comp teachers, and is advice I follow to the letter. This paper is for my government paper, and got me to thinking about age and affirmative action and it's effect on me as I start searching for jobs in my new field this semester. While researching this I found at least three website where you can actually buy papers already written for $25 to $40. I couldn't believe it, if that's not blatant plagiarism, I don't know what is. Another thing that instructors have is that you have to agree to submit your paper to a global database, and it will list articles that have the same sentences. I found this out in my medical sociology class. When I submitted my study guides, I was able to click on a link, and lo and behold there was all kinds of study guides with anything that was exact in blue type and anything different was in black type. All the instructor has to do is look at your paper, and they can see what is original and what isn't.
Lifelong learning is one of the reasons why I am switching careers, that and the price of gas, and hopefully I will be able to ride my Vmax to work instead of driving a truck loaded with tools, lol.
I grew up in SE Michigan and the skilled trades jobs in the late '80's were a dime a dozen with all the little shops all over the place. Most shops would hire anybody off the street, and it was very easy to be over-qualified. You can imagine the turnover they had too.
Lifelong learning is one of the reasons why I am switching careers, that and the price of gas, and hopefully I will be able to ride my Vmax to work instead of driving a truck loaded with tools, lol.
I grew up in SE Michigan and the skilled trades jobs in the late '80's were a dime a dozen with all the little shops all over the place. Most shops would hire anybody off the street, and it was very easy to be over-qualified. You can imagine the turnover they had too.
That's so true...my English Comp II teacher was my age, and my Advanced Computer Diagnosis teacher is just one year older than me. Most of my classes are online, but I know some of them have to be around the same age as me as well. Funny thing is, my computer teacher keeps ragging on one student (he's 19) about what the "real world" is like.
KJShover
Proud Vmax lover
Last year I had an instructor that used to say "in the real world" alot. she was 24 and went from high school to the university now a teacher's aide and adjunct lecturer. I used to correct her alot. it would piss her off. I would say between ARCO, the University, Fire department and Police departments I've been in the real world for over 23 years.
Hahaha!!! I like the description about "raggin' on the 19 y.o. about 'the real world'!"
Being far-closer to retirement than even mid-career, I have a perspective which qualifies as 'mature.' The world is different than it was for people who are Baby Boomers, such as myself. The war babies (WW II) are similar to the Baby Boomers in their career paths and their expectations for the future.
I went from high school to college in MI in the late 1960's. Back then you could find a job where you could afford to buy a home and raise a family w/o a college education, but now I believe those days are gone for most people. Many people today will never own a new car, never own their own home (and maintain possession of it) and if they do, it will be 'one or the other.'
We have a faculty tool we put students' work into for detecting plagiarism. It works quickly and shows the source of the document. We also warn students we will submit their work, still, some do it anyway.
Rusty McNeil
Well-Known Member
I think age discrimination exists, no doubt. I've heard comments made by past employers that tells me age is definitely a consideation.
With skill sets that are easily learned it is a bigger issue, easy enough to hire someone with the same skills, younger and soaking up less health care dollars, vacation and accrued bennies.....
With skill sets that are more than an easily trained warm body, hard to find, hard to train for and impossible to ever be fully 100% at the top of the skill set due to ever changing industry advances then it's not much of an issue, the older worker is usually prefered in these cases, simply based on expeience and knowledge, they know more and are worth every penny in businesses in which worker knowledge and skill is THE critical key to success........I've been doing what I do for over 30 years and still learn something new everyday, I feel sorry for the young new guys fresh out of colege because it is such a long road to make it to the top of the game......We've got a few "boy wonders" but they are rare.......We hire expeienced people in thier 50's and 60's all the time.....The knowledge they pass on in the short time you might have them is invaluable...
With skill sets that are easily learned it is a bigger issue, easy enough to hire someone with the same skills, younger and soaking up less health care dollars, vacation and accrued bennies.....
With skill sets that are more than an easily trained warm body, hard to find, hard to train for and impossible to ever be fully 100% at the top of the skill set due to ever changing industry advances then it's not much of an issue, the older worker is usually prefered in these cases, simply based on expeience and knowledge, they know more and are worth every penny in businesses in which worker knowledge and skill is THE critical key to success........I've been doing what I do for over 30 years and still learn something new everyday, I feel sorry for the young new guys fresh out of colege because it is such a long road to make it to the top of the game......We've got a few "boy wonders" but they are rare.......We hire expeienced people in thier 50's and 60's all the time.....The knowledge they pass on in the short time you might have them is invaluable...
Rusty McNeil
Well-Known Member
Arco???
The chemical plant I quit back in '09 (19 years there) was an Arco facilty in Houston when I hired on, quickly transitioned from Lyondell, Equistar, back to Lyondell then Lyondell-Basell.........
Arco was the good old days and great to work for, they cared, it got worse with every ownership change until I couldn't take it any more and was fixin'to quit, the Russian dickhead (Basell) bankrupted the company with his heavily leveraged buyout, the voluntary severance package could not have come at a better time.....Got a new lease on life now with a company small enough that they know your name and recognize achievement.....but big enough to survive.
Rusty McNeil
Well-Known Member
Heard an instructor say once, not to me, your work is both original and clever, how ever; the original part isn't clever, and the clever part isn't original..:rofl_200:
KJShover
Proud Vmax lover
It was a great place to work, I have many good memories of the time I spent there. The nice building, the people I worked with, etc...
It was good until VECO came in, turned out we ended up training our replacements. Then were given a check and a handshake then escorted to the door.
Wait till death care comes into full swing. Talk about age discrimination. With terminal type deseases, like cancer, it'll be pro rated. The older you are, the less Uncle Sugar will spend on you. Like, if you're 62, why spend much money on you when a possibly, more productive 26 yr old can still produce. Like, at 62, normally, one will start to become a liability to society, taking up benefits and having health problems. In otherwords, it'll be cost saving to let you hit the dirt. This will happen to each of us, unless we're dead before hand. A young illegal will be more taken care of before an elder American will be. Work hard to keep the country going so you can be tossed away like a rag later.
If it weren't for the 'hard working' elderly, we wouldn't have what we have today. Even though I don't have a lot of everything, compared to many around the world, I'm doing alright. The elderly paved me a way to have what I have, especially vets. Why pizz on them instead of, atleast take care of them out of respect? The 'working elderly' paid into the system. They should get what they deserve, respect. SS isn't an entitlement to the elderly work class. They were forced to pay dues to a system that was suppose to protect them in their latter yrs. But no, let's dump on them.
And that's me thots on age discrimination.
If it weren't for the 'hard working' elderly, we wouldn't have what we have today. Even though I don't have a lot of everything, compared to many around the world, I'm doing alright. The elderly paved me a way to have what I have, especially vets. Why pizz on them instead of, atleast take care of them out of respect? The 'working elderly' paid into the system. They should get what they deserve, respect. SS isn't an entitlement to the elderly work class. They were forced to pay dues to a system that was suppose to protect them in their latter yrs. But no, let's dump on them.
And that's me thots on age discrimination.
bobzdar
Well-Known Member
My opinions are AA is fine for a tie breaker but nothing else. Proof should be available that the person hired was a leading candidate before AA was taken into account. If you can't ensure that more qualified people don't get shafted, the idea should be scrapped.
Age discrimination should not and does not exist for me. With the job turnover in my industry, whether you hire somebody 25 or 60, they could be gone in 2 years either way so whoever is best and produces results gets the job. My goal is to get done what needs to be done and whoever is best equipped to do so gets the job. Age/race etc. should only enter into the discussion as a tie breaker (which is somewhat rare) and there should be no hard feelings at that point.
If you are older and looking for a job, you need to be able to learn and adapt and be able to demonstrate that in an interview as well as anyone else and not rest on your laurels. I can honestly say I've never taken into account age/race etc. when evaluating candidates for jobs. It was about knowledge and how they answered situational questions and demonstration of problem solving skills. Some candidates rely too much on experience which can be as bad as somebody that has no experience (and sometimes worse).
If somebody tells me they've been doing something for 20 years, it tells me nothing about whether they were doing it correctly or not.
If it was a tie between an older and younger candidate, I don't know how I'd choose. You have experience on one hand and potential for a longer career on the other, but It's never come up.
Age discrimination should not and does not exist for me. With the job turnover in my industry, whether you hire somebody 25 or 60, they could be gone in 2 years either way so whoever is best and produces results gets the job. My goal is to get done what needs to be done and whoever is best equipped to do so gets the job. Age/race etc. should only enter into the discussion as a tie breaker (which is somewhat rare) and there should be no hard feelings at that point.
If you are older and looking for a job, you need to be able to learn and adapt and be able to demonstrate that in an interview as well as anyone else and not rest on your laurels. I can honestly say I've never taken into account age/race etc. when evaluating candidates for jobs. It was about knowledge and how they answered situational questions and demonstration of problem solving skills. Some candidates rely too much on experience which can be as bad as somebody that has no experience (and sometimes worse).
If somebody tells me they've been doing something for 20 years, it tells me nothing about whether they were doing it correctly or not.
If it was a tie between an older and younger candidate, I don't know how I'd choose. You have experience on one hand and potential for a longer career on the other, but It's never come up.
I've had to work with many different people, and before I decided to change careers in mid life, I even had to hire a few. As far as younger people were concerned, they usually could work harder, but the older folks were definitely smarter, and better at their jobs. I always paid accordingly too. I always paid for experience, and many times I learned from them as well. With the younger guys, I paid less, but got to teach them also. I think it's nice to be able to pass along a little knowledge along the way. That being said, I have found that when it comes to drinking, either on or off duty, showing up every morning, on time!, and willing to work that there is no real difference due to age. There are just some people that are going to try and drink/smoke on the job, be late or not even show up, and are just not good workers. Once I realized that, it sure made things easier.
'Slacker' wrote,"...SS isn't an entitlement to the elderly work class."
Well, actually, it is an entitlement. If you meet the criterion, you receive the benefit, if you apply for it. De facto, that's the definition of an entitlement.
Affirmative Action is likely to be gutted if the Republicans control the Congress and White House. Executive Orders from the WH and administrative determinations from the federal service will shape that implementation. The input will be, "after two generations, affirmative action is no-longer required because at the federal level, discrimination no-longer exists." Locally, employers may continue to do it, but the bar will be set high to prove it, and many people who suffer won't be able to afford the legal representation to pursue it. If they do, the employer agrees to a 'consent decree' which allows them to not be found guilty of violating AA while making changes in employment practices so as to remedy the issue raised by the plaintiff or party seeking relief.
I have served as a consultant for affirmative action litigation. at the federal level.
Well, actually, it is an entitlement. If you meet the criterion, you receive the benefit, if you apply for it. De facto, that's the definition of an entitlement.
Affirmative Action is likely to be gutted if the Republicans control the Congress and White House. Executive Orders from the WH and administrative determinations from the federal service will shape that implementation. The input will be, "after two generations, affirmative action is no-longer required because at the federal level, discrimination no-longer exists." Locally, employers may continue to do it, but the bar will be set high to prove it, and many people who suffer won't be able to afford the legal representation to pursue it. If they do, the employer agrees to a 'consent decree' which allows them to not be found guilty of violating AA while making changes in employment practices so as to remedy the issue raised by the plaintiff or party seeking relief.
I have served as a consultant for affirmative action litigation. at the federal level.
F-M, That's why I put down 'working elderly'. Sure, I know of a Mexican man in CA that snuck across the border, applied for, and receives SS. Another reason why there's not enough for the donators to the system. I doubt I'll see any of the bucks I threw in the pot. Course, there may be nothing soon. Just being realistic.
AA may of had it's use in the past. Much of it was overkill. When my dad applied for a job for a gas company, another 'race' was given the job, just because of race. My dad had 30+ yrs working with gas and oil. The other individual had none, but the company hired him to have the body, keep up the quota. They gave my dad a lower pay job to get him but he moved on within a year.
AA may of had it's use in the past. Much of it was overkill. When my dad applied for a job for a gas company, another 'race' was given the job, just because of race. My dad had 30+ yrs working with gas and oil. The other individual had none, but the company hired him to have the body, keep up the quota. They gave my dad a lower pay job to get him but he moved on within a year.
