any hvac folks -central air issue

[gamorg02]

Looking for anyone who knows hvac, specifically central air stuff?

Long story short:

Went on an overnight trip and set the central air to 81 ° as i knew we had a heat wave and wanted to be able to drop it comfortably for the wife (8 mos pregnant) and little girl getting over being sick (21 mo old) when we got back. I dropped the wife off and ran some errands when i got back she had turned the thermostat back to what temp we run and i heard a louder than normal buzzing noise. Come to find out the fan was not moving on the condenser outside. ugh. Turn the system off and through some troubleshooting i can get the fan running again as it won't start up itself but does with a push (so i believe starter capacitor). However I think the compressor is shot. when i turn on the system now every 30s-1m the whole house takes a voltage hit (like something is trying to start) and i don't hear the compressor start from the unit. no overly buzzing noise like i first heard when i got home.

I let the compressor cool overnight and gave it a bath hoping something was just frozen. Same issue this am. i read something about a high pressure safety switch for just this scenario but don't think i'd hear that voltage hit when i turn the system on (and after the fan gets going).

What strikes me the most odd is when we got home the house was perfectly at the temp i left it at(even though our house is notoriously hot without it), and not humid at all. So i wonder if the fan stopped earlier the day before and the compressor died just hours before we got home.

Of course we're in a wicked hot stretch and i need to get this taken care of asap. Wondering if anyone can confirm it sounds like the compressor is shot?

And what i should realistically pay for a compressor replacement? Not planning on being in the house longer than a couple-few years so dumping $10k in a whole new unit doesn't make sense. Its older (not sure how old) but uses R22. I'd really appreciate just any guidance people would have, as i'm at the will of the local contractors/hvac folks not being able to do this myself. gonna try to get 4-5 estimates monday/tuesday and get the thing back up and going. If i can be pretty sure the compressors shot and get some ideas here what i might need to pay i can tell if someone is trying to jerk me around. I'm aware that r22 is like up to $100+ a pound.

heres what I have for specs (below). it cools 2400 sq ft, altho 800+ of that is a basement where the registers are almost turned to off as its more for humidity than cooling.

 

[mikehvac]

Hi,I'm an hvac tech.A lot of the units have one capacitor to start the fan motor and the compressor,if so it would have 3 terminals at the top.It looks like the fan section went first and the compressor half followed it.Try a new cap before any thing else.Cost should be $25 to $35.I hope this helps.

 

[The Beekeeper]

I'm no expert, but verify the correct voltage to the disconnect on the unit, make sure any fuses are good, I would replace the start capacitor, these are the things I would check first before calling in a service tech.........Good luck.........Tom.

 

[gamorg02]

Hi,I'm an hvac tech.A lot of the units have one capacitor to start the fan motor and the compressor,if so it would have 3 terminals at the top.It looks like the fan section went first and the compressor half followed it.Try a new cap before any thing else.Cost should be $25 to $35.I hope this helps.

thanks for the thoughts, however i can manually start the fan by spinning it and it will go ahead and start up and come up to speed, and the compressor still doesn't turn on. if it had i would already have gotten a capacitor, but figured if the compressor goes i should replace the fan motor and such as a whole too.

anything else for me to try? if you had a minute to give me a call that'd be cool if theres anything else for me to try - 774.292.104(nine)

I'm no expert, but verify the correct voltage to the disconnect on the unit, make sure any fuses are good, I would replace the start capacitor, these are the things I would check first before calling in a service tech.........Good luck.........Tom.

voltage should be good as the fan spins fine once i push it. breakers are all double and triple checked altho the fan/compressor are on the same circuit


i should also say when i say 'fan' i mean the unit on top of the condensor. the house air handler is working fine independent of the refrigerant portion. Its an a/c only system as i have baseboard heat.

thanks!

 

[Tex85]

I had a similar experience last year and replacing the capacitor is all it took. It is a very simple swap to do on your own just make sure you switch of the breaker or local disconnect by the unit itself to prevent an accidental shock or arcing event on reinstallation.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

 

[gamorg02]

I had a similar experience last year and replacing the capacitor is all it took. It is a very simple swap to do on your own just make sure you switch of the breaker or local disconnect by the unit itself to prevent an accidental shock or arcing event on reinstallation.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

yes. mikehvac from above just called me and explained to me the key part i was missing. the capacitor fires both the fan and the compressor. i thought it was just the fan. going to try to get it apart and find somewhere thats local to me that sells 'em now.

 

[Rusty McNeil]

A lot of units do use one capacitor to fire both, and it really is the best place to start.
Verifying the Start relay/s are actually pulling in is also a good check. Although from your description they are.

Another thing to look for is pitted burned contacts in the start relays, you can do a visual or compare voltage readings on the line and load side when its pulled in.
Although if the compressor is burned up it may give flaky voltage readings at the start relay load side even if the start relay isn't bad.

If they do replace the compressor, make damn sure they do a good flush on the whole system. When a compressor goes bad it spits out a lot of crap and if not taken care of it can ruin a new compressor.

Some units only have one filter drier, its not a bad idea to install one on both sides of the system so it can catch any crap that does "loop back" through they system before it gets to your new compressor.

And of course make sure they pull a REALLY good vacuum before charging it.

On price I'm not sure. I replaced my entire system myself about 10 years ago, and got the whole package inside an out including the electric heat portion for around $1800, but that was wholesale pricing from a friend in the AC business.

That was for a 4 ton Ruud Unit, 12kw heat, with Zero fancy electronics.

Good luck, sucks I know...

 

[Suave Cowboy]

Bump, good luck with everything! Hope you can get this sorted without too much cash out of pocket.

 

[Fire-medic]

My friend in FL w/whom I go to Daytona is a HVAC contractor, he is in Wellington (Palm Beach Co.) FL. When my old system went out he sent me to a local guy who fixed me up. Joe Block A-C in Weston FL. I got a full split system, I think it's 3 tons, w/an electronic progammable thermostat. Rheem/RUUD are good quality, Goodman is cheap, & doesn't last as-long. I bought a Bryant and the SEER is 21, which is double what my elderly unit was. The last Aug. bill I had before the switch-out was ~$280, and the Aug. bill I had after the install was $130! Quite a difference, and no service needed since the install, this is the second summer since the change-out. I asked the contractor what unit he would install in his house and he steered me to the Bryant. He told me, "that's what I have." He said it's more-expensive, but worth it. It has a heat strip too, I think it's ~11Kw. I also got back $1500 from the US Gov't. for energy-efficiency on my taxes! It paid for my undercut tranny & reassembly of the bottom end after a spun #3 conn. rod big-end bearing. So, changing your a-c can get your 'Max fixed!

Good luck w/the capacitor replacement, I did that awhile ago and limped-along for a couple more years before doing the complete change-out, which I figure has half-paid for itself over what I have saved the last two years.

Here is a site w/some info on manufacturers: http://www.consumersearch.com/central-air-conditioners/brands-vs-brands

 

[gamorg02]

long story short mikehvac saved the day. And that was his first post on the forum.

took the cover off and saw the capacitor definitely had a ballooned top(pic attached)..

Spent a few hour calling places, no one open. Finally got one company to come out and replace it as they wouldn't just sell me the part. I paid through the nose ($275) but it was worth it to see my daughter and wife sleep comfortably. Since i had done all the work and it was an easy job they didn't charge me the 'emergency' surcharge on the sunday afternoon visit. He said it was the 6th one he did today.

He put a universal one in but I'm going to get the exact GE spec one I took out and replace that and keep the universal as a spare. $25 on amazon, hah.

 

[jfeagins]

Hi,I'm an hvac tech.A lot of the units have one capacitor to start the fan motor and the compressor,if so it would have 3 terminals at the top.It looks like the fan section went first and the compressor half followed it.Try a new cap before any thing else.Cost should be $25 to $35.I hope this helps.

I had a similar experience last year and replacing the capacitor is all it took. It is a very simple swap to do on your own just make sure you switch of the breaker or local disconnect by the unit itself to prevent an accidental shock or arcing event on reinstallation.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2

Same here for me last summer. All it took was a $25.00 capacitor to get it all going again. Of course, the HVAC guy charged me $55.00 for the part, but only $45.00 for a Sunday/holiday weekend call out. It was 107 degrees out the day we came home to a hot house, and I thought $100 was a small, very small price to pay to get mine up and running again.

 

[Traumahawk]

That is one of the reasons why I like this forum....people helping each other out.

 

[gamorg02]

Same here for me last summer. All it took was a $25.00 capacitor to get it all going again. Of course, the HVAC guy charged me $55.00 for the part, but only $45.00 for a Sunday/holiday weekend call out. It was 107 degrees out the day we came home to a hot house, and I thought $100 was a small, very small price to pay to get mine up and running again.

$100 aint bad at all, and actually i was expecting $150 for the service call. Figure the parts probably $25, 100% markup means its $50 for them to sell to me, Plus $100 for their time to drive 3 miles and put it in. I thought that was reasonable, but if i was going to pay $150 in my mind another $125 was worth it, and it was as the humidity was over 90% all night i think.

of course 3 minutes after the guy left my house we lost power to our whole neighborhood (about 2500 homes said national grid) for 2 hours. took the generator out and got all the fans going again but by 8pm it was not humid at all in the house and by 10pm it was very comfortable.

 

[jfeagins]

The thing with mine was that I had already disassembled the unit to 'visually inspect' for anything obvious, and had actually put eyes on that capacitor. I am trained to see suspect caps on the small circuit boards of the games I keep going in my basement, but for some reason, I did not notice the bulged, and slightly weepy, end cap on that starter capacitor. The repair guy went straight to it and began removing it. That's when I noticed it's end had expanded a bit and was weeping. Right there I coulda shot myself, and thought "boy howdy, this is going to cost me plenty cause I couldn't fix it myself." It being a Sunday evening, and also a holiday weekend too, I thought the worst. So, when I found out he'd only made a bit of money on the part, and did not, in any way, gouge me for the call out, I was very happy. Dude was a lifesaver, and I probably would have been happy with over twice that amount.

 

[gamorg02]

The thing with mine was that I had already disassembled the unit to 'visually inspect' for anything obvious, and had actually put eyes on that capacitor. I am trained to see suspect caps on the small circuit boards of the games I keep going in my basement, but for some reason, I did not notice the bulged, and slightly weepy, end cap on that starter capacitor. The repair guy went straight to it and began removing it. That's when I noticed it's end had expanded a bit and was weeping. Right there I coulda shot myself, and thought "boy howdy, this is going to cost me plenty cause I couldn't fix it myself." It being a Sunday evening, and also a holiday weekend too, I thought the worst. So, when I found out he'd only made a bit of money on the part, and did not, in any way, gouge me for the call out, I was very happy. Dude was a lifesaver, and I probably would have been happy with over twice that amount.

it was a $25 part with a $75 delivery charge eh?

any shop that i could goto to get one this morning was going to be a bit of a hike and i hadda be into work for a big meeting 9-11 so it would have had to been afterwards. I also had conflicting reports on whether i could buy the part or not without a license locally.

 

[Fire-medic]

The wholesale houses may not sell to you, but Grainger's would, though they probably have to order it in. We all want a deal, but there are a lot of costs to being in business. Paying to have it done by a certified, insured technician is worth what it costs, in my opinion. Sure, if you are able to trouble-shoot it and repair it yourself, have-at-it. But if you get it wrong and burn your house down, the fire investigators which include people from the Building Department locally investigating the origin of the fire, working w/the fire dept's. investigators, may find the problem was owner-caused, and your insurance may not cover it.

Awhile-ago, where I was working as a fire inspector, we had a rash of kitchen fires where people would put big pots of oil to 'high,' and leave the house, and wait for the pot to catch the kitchen on-fire, to get a new kitchen. Word-of-mouth was responsible: "here's how you get a new kitchen!" We did some P.R. where we said the scam was done, and that the insurance companies were not going to be paying for claims for this type of loss. The word got out, and the fires stopped. Whether or not the insurance companies would be able to prove it was arson, and not negligence, well, that may be a jury question. The national fire reporting documents you file has information about the brand, model and serial # of the suspect appliance, so the tracking is done at a national level.

 

[gamorg02]

The wholesale houses may not sell to you, but Grainger's would, though they probably have to order it in. We all want a deal, but there are a lot of costs to being in business. Paying to have it done by a certified, insured technician is worth what it costs, in my opinion. Sure, if you are able to trouble-shoot it and repair it yourself, have-at-it. But if you get it wrong and burn your house down, the fire investigators which include people from the Building Department locally investigating the origin of the fire, working w/the fire dept's. investigators, may find the problem was owner-caused, and your insurance may not cover it.

Awhile-ago, where I was working as a fire inspector, we had a rash of kitchen fires where people would put big pots of oil to 'high,' and leave the house, and wait for the pot to catch the kitchen on-fire, to get a new kitchen. Word-of-mouth was responsible: "here's how you get a new kitchen!" We did some P.R. where we said the scam was done, and that the insurance companies were not going to be paying for claims for this type of loss. The word got out, and the fires stopped. Whether or not the insurance companies would be able to prove it was arson, and not negligence, well, that may be a jury question. The national fire reporting documents you file has information about the brand, model and serial # of the suspect appliance, so the tracking is done at a national level.

while i agree with your principle, this was such as easy fix it'd take some pretty big negligence for me to mess it up, plus i was speaking to mike from above and finally got another hvac guy to call me back shortly after that so i'm pretty sure i woulda been good. i watched the guy too, did nothing i wouldn't have. plus his capacitor wasn't the same size so he electrical taped it in place. woulda much rather had the bracket back on one of the same spec.

 

[Rusty McNeil]

while i agree with your principle, this was such as easy fix it'd take some pretty big negligence for me to mess it up,.

I agree.
A/C is usually basic electrical problems, not really that complicated for someone who "works on their own shit"
and has a little snap.
Gotta know your own limits tho'

 

[gamorg02]

I agree.
A/C is usually basic electrical problems, not really that complicated for someone who "works on their own shit"
and has a little snap.
Gotta know your own limits tho

this..

esp when it was just me, less to loose. wife (pregnant) and a beautiful daughter ups the ante quite a bit.

i think part of it is also not growing up around here finding competent people to trust with your things is always a challenge. at least when i do things i know if they're done right or i'm in over my head and to call backup. i also like to learn how it all works so i can be better prepared.