exessive drive- train play ?
- Thread starter ripinanroarin
- Start date
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jedi-
Well-Known Member
That's what I was referring to in my previous post but you need to check if it's the cam lobes against the mating gear face first before looking further back thru the gear train. Part number 3 from your diagram.
ripinanroarin
Well-Known Member
No problem there.All is good. Its the shaft, or what ever it goes to, "right side" but you cant see , its way to far to the right in the motor. This shaft has to come out so I can see the other end of it and find out whats broken or worn. The problem has to be on the far right of the shaft.
ripinanroarin
Well-Known Member
The blue question mark is you secondary transmission shaft. All the gears are connected on it.
Sean
Sean
ripinanroarin
Well-Known Member
This is BAD news isn't it. Is this where you tell me that the motor has to come out ?
The trany gears are pooched, cracked bent or broken internals ? Whats the plan...and how much $ am I looking at.
The trany gears are pooched, cracked bent or broken internals ? Whats the plan...and how much $ am I looking at.
I need to do some more checking. There is an acceptable amount of play and will need to see how much a few of the bikes here have. Here's a pic showing the internals. The worm gears (both in the trans and rear diff) are going to have some play in them. Then the trans will have some play where the dogs engage.
Basically the power is transferred as follows:
1: Piston to the crank (where it all starts)
2: Crank to the clutch basket via gears on the end of the crank and back of the clutch basket. Both of those gears could be areas if the rivets shear off or get bad (not seen that yet).
3: Primary Trans shaft has the clutch basket (inner) bolted to it. The outer basket locks to the inner with the clutch fiber/steel stackup. There are splines in the inner basket that could get play in there but not typical. If the clutch is slipping there could be play there.
4: Primary shaft connected to the secondary shaft via gears. The power is moved from gears by locking gears into each other (done with the shift forks moving gears around). They are not locked by the teeth of the gears but in fact by the gear dogs. The holes can't be perfectly cut otherwise it would be hard to get them in place while the engine is running. So, the holes are more like slots (elongated). This is one big area of "play".
5: Secondary shaft to the worm gear. There is a splined coupler that engages the shaft and then also engages the back of the worm gear on the shaft. Think of 2 fingers sticking into two mating slots. There could be play (and usually is some) in this area.
6: Worm gear to the outer worm gear which is going to have some play too.
7: Outer worm gear to the u-joint and down the shaft to the rear diff.
I would maybe suspect the coupler (part number 3) and back of the worm gear (part number 4) might be a big area of your play in addition to the play the dogs give.
Sean
Basically the power is transferred as follows:
1: Piston to the crank (where it all starts)
2: Crank to the clutch basket via gears on the end of the crank and back of the clutch basket. Both of those gears could be areas if the rivets shear off or get bad (not seen that yet).
3: Primary Trans shaft has the clutch basket (inner) bolted to it. The outer basket locks to the inner with the clutch fiber/steel stackup. There are splines in the inner basket that could get play in there but not typical. If the clutch is slipping there could be play there.
4: Primary shaft connected to the secondary shaft via gears. The power is moved from gears by locking gears into each other (done with the shift forks moving gears around). They are not locked by the teeth of the gears but in fact by the gear dogs. The holes can't be perfectly cut otherwise it would be hard to get them in place while the engine is running. So, the holes are more like slots (elongated). This is one big area of "play".
5: Secondary shaft to the worm gear. There is a splined coupler that engages the shaft and then also engages the back of the worm gear on the shaft. Think of 2 fingers sticking into two mating slots. There could be play (and usually is some) in this area.
6: Worm gear to the outer worm gear which is going to have some play too.
7: Outer worm gear to the u-joint and down the shaft to the rear diff.
I would maybe suspect the coupler (part number 3) and back of the worm gear (part number 4) might be a big area of your play in addition to the play the dogs give.
Sean
ripinanroarin
Well-Known Member
Thank you sean for taking the time to answere this post in such detail. It really helps a person to understand. Wow,...I'll bet you ,theres a bunch of people on this forum thinking "I'm sure glad my bike doesnt have that problem" and if you do...watch and learn. I have a feeling "humpty dumpty" is going to be in alot of pieces right away:sad2:
I will wait for your reply, as what to do next.
I will wait for your reply, as what to do next.
ripinanroarin
Well-Known Member
Couldnt wait...I just had to take it apart. Here are my findings. While holding the secondary shaft "so it wouldnt turn" I then turned the primary shaft with my hand to see how much play is there.
Pic #1 starting position.
Pic #2 this is how far the shaft turns.
Green...original position
blue..new postion
Red...distance travelled.
Can I take out the 3 screws holding in the main shaft, and slide it out ? or does everything fall apart inside the case?
Is this ever an easy clutch to take apart.Simple diaphram.
Pic #1 starting position.
Pic #2 this is how far the shaft turns.
Green...original position
blue..new postion
Red...distance travelled.
Can I take out the 3 screws holding in the main shaft, and slide it out ? or does everything fall apart inside the case?
Is this ever an easy clutch to take apart.Simple diaphram.
Attachments
You won't get it out even if you do take out the 3 bolts. The bearings are held place with a locking clip that fits into a grove in the block. There are tiny pins that hold the bearings in place too. Plus the shift forks will bind it up. Basically the simple answer is no.
Let me check one of the engines here and see how much it turns in place. I suspect that the movement isn't much different.
Forgot the pic before but this is a chain drive engine. At least you can see the other guts this way.
Sean
Let me check one of the engines here and see how much it turns in place. I suspect that the movement isn't much different.
Forgot the pic before but this is a chain drive engine. At least you can see the other guts this way.
Sean
Attachments
jedi-
Well-Known Member
Before you go really ripping into, do as Sean says and wait for his findings on sample motors. As said there will be a bunch of play anyway which adds up with the gear train dog arrangement etc.
It might not be anything out of the ordinary.....yet.
It might not be anything out of the ordinary.....yet.
ripinanroarin
Well-Known Member
waiting.:biglaugh:
Sean should get an award for helping the most people world wide... I don't see how he ever gets any work done. He did say his dad does most of the packing.:biglaugh:
Happy Fathers Day,
Dave in Florida
Happy Fathers Day,
Dave in Florida
Yep, dad and my girls on occasion help him out.
Here's the lamest vid I could make about 10 minutes ago. I'll make a better one at some point.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raIuYmsv48E
Sean
Here's the lamest vid I could make about 10 minutes ago. I'll make a better one at some point.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raIuYmsv48E
Sean
How many others would take time on Fathers Day / Sunday and make a video?
The video goes a little dark at the beginning but there appears to be a good deal of Play or Rotation. ripinanroarin showed about the
same amount ( About 45 or so Degrees ) if I've compared the 2 well.... He has a clunk if I remember right. What could be giving that sound?
The video goes a little dark at the beginning but there appears to be a good deal of Play or Rotation. ripinanroarin showed about the
same amount ( About 45 or so Degrees ) if I've compared the 2 well.... He has a clunk if I remember right. What could be giving that sound?
The clunk you hear in the vid is the dogs hitting the up shift side and then the down shift side of the engagement area. Remember I said the dogs were what holds the bike in gear and have to be slotted to allow for shifting while the bike is running. So, that slotted area will create movement/slack in the drivetrain.
Sean
Sean
ripinanroarin
Well-Known Member
thanks for the video Sean ,but
Im sorry, I just cant get a good look to see for sure. The video starts off nice and bright for a second, and then goes to dark to really tell. A piece of tape "as a pointer" would really help then I could accurately tell. In my pic, I just folded some 3/4 masking tape around the shaft. Seen in pic"green"
Attachments
You can still see how far my finger is moving. About the same as your diagram.
Sean
Sean
