Media bullshit about gun control,and truth

[ouchez]

Fienstein and Schumer and several others pushing to take away your rights to own a weapon of your choice are not only U.S. citizens, but dual citizens of a certain Middle-Eastern country which I will claim they are far more loyal to than the U.S. or at least the question needs to be asked why these Senators and Congress members are allowed to hold office with dual allegiance!

Google this and you will be shocked and pissed off at what you find.

O

 

[Rusty McNeil]

Fienstein and Schumer and several others pushing to take away your rights to own a weapon of your choice are not only U.S. citizens, but dual citizens of a certain Middle-Eastern country which I will claim they are far more loyal to than the U.S. or at least the question needs to be asked why these Senators and Congress members are allowed to hold office with dual allegiance!

Google this and you will be shocked and pissed off at what you find.

O

Are you saying they have dual status because they're merely Jewish and have the legal "right" to Jewish citizenship under the "right to return" laws if Israel?
Or that they actually have applied for and obtained actual citizenship in Israel?
I tried to find that answer and could not really get one.

From the state department;

"A U.S. citizen may acquire foreign citizenship by marriage, or a person naturalized as a U.S. citizen may not lose the citizenship of the country of birth.U.S. law does not mention dual nationality or require a person to choose one citizenship or another. Also, a person who is automatically granted another citizenship does not risk losing U.S. citizenship. However, a person who acquires a foreign citizenship by applying for it may lose U.S. citizenship. In order to lose U.S. citizenship, the law requires that the person must apply for the foreign citizenship voluntarily, by free choice, and with the intention to give up U.S. citizenship."

I know a lot of dual citizens, don't think it's a big deal, rarely does it happen because someone asked for it, usually due to birth, marriage or the particular laws of the second nation.

I think they're dirtbags but not for this reason.

 

[ouchez]

Rusty,

I am very concerned that any Federal Gov. official, elected or not, is allowed to hold dual allegiance. The reason being is obvious, conflicts of interests in going to war and foreign aid and access to state secrets that may be of great value to the OTHER country they are citizens of, besides it is just plain wrong.

My Federal Senator is Carl Levin, a dual citizen. He sits on some very sensitive committes, when I ask him questions via email I always get a reply, except when I asked him about his dual status,,,he remained totally silent.

Let us say there is a vote to go to war in the Middle East, say against Iran, and the tipping votes come down to seven Congressmen, and all seven, being dual citizen of that foreign state with a great interest in pushing us into war with Iran,, a state set aside for one ethnicity and no other, and they all vote for the war, do you then feel good about sending our men and women off to fight and die in that war, maybe your own kids or grandkids, :ummm:. Or,
do you feel like me, that that situation REEKS.

BTW, that foreign state does not allow their leaders in Gov. to be dual citizen.:rofl_200:

O

 

[Rusty McNeil]

I get your point but it is not what I was asking.

What I am asking is what is the foundation for saying these people HAVE dual citizenship? How did they get it? Did they seek it out? Actually apply? What I was able to find out myself is that being illegible for citizenship by right of return isn't the same as actually applying for it and some of the tin foil hat crowd are claiming they are when they aren't.

As for conflicted interests.
I still consider the phrase "Israeli-American Interests"
To have a solid foundation in regional realities. Not gonna get into a "War" argument, other than to say that if the US had never set foot outside our Borders militarily the World be be the lesser for it. Everything has a cost, our military is Voluntary, no enlistee since about '85 could possibly fool themselves as to the possibilities of going to War.

 

[ouchez]

I get your point but it is not what I was asking.

What I am asking is what is the foundation for saying these people HAVE dual citizenship? How did they get it? Did they seek it out? Actually apply? What I was able to find out myself is that being illegible for citizenship by right of return isn't the same as actually applying for it and some of the tin foil hat crowd are claiming they are when they aren't.

As for conflicted interests.
I still consider the phrase "Israeli-American Interests"
To have a solid foundation in regional realities. Not gonna get into a "War" argument, other than to say that if the US had never set foot outside our Borders militarily the World be be the lesser for it. Everything has a cost, our military is Voluntary, no enlistee since about '85 could possibly fool themselves as to the possibilities of going to War.

Rusty,

Than I take it if there is a draft you would not mind that your daughter or son be drafted to fight a war for "Israeli-American Interests" rather than pure American? (Google U.S.S. Liberty and then Jonathan Pollard).

As for the U.S, never setting foot outside our borders, with the exception of WW-2 and our taking Hawaii and Alaska, Hawaii using troops to do so, I say fervently yes, the world would be a far better place. 57,000 young men killed in V-N, thousands in Korea, thousands in Phillipines, thousands in WW-1, millions killed by our bombs in those conflicts, some outright unconstitutional, hundreds of thousands wounded,,, huge debt.,,Ya Rusty, we have done a great service to humanity.:damn angry:

Also, just because we have a "volunteer military", actually to a high degree an "Economic Draft", does not mean our Fed. Gov. has a right to abuse those very same military personnel because they were not "drafted", nor should you look at them any different because they were a "volunteer" rather than a draftee.

We have only one interest, and that is the U.S. interest and I want no Politician straddling the fence between our interest and that of a foreign state!

Did you ever think that a foreign state may want us disarmed so that in the future they could gain control over us far easier and then send our children off to do their dirty work with no fear of repercussion against them, here at home, for their misuse of our economy and youth? Don't think that can happen:ummm:,,,are you in any mood to even find out?

Check it out.

O

 

[Rusty McNeil]

We don't have a draft and doubt we ever will again, tho that's not a certainty.

I don't buy the economic draft argument. That's been studied and found to be an argument on soft footing. Our young people do have a choice. There not being economically shanghaied.


I'm not gonna argue validity of War with you. I will respectfully agree to disagree with you on that one.

What I will do is ask this same question for the third time you keep skipping over.

"What I am asking is what is the foundation for saying these people HAVE dual citizenship? How did they get it? Did they seek it out? Actually apply? What I was able to find out myself is that being illegible for citizenship by right of return isn't the same as actually applying for it and some conspiracy folks are claiming these politicians are dual when they are merely eligible due to Israel's right of return laws or due to having married an Israeli citizen."

 

[ouchez]

I'm not gonna argue War with you. I will respectfully agree to disagree with you on that one.

What I will do is ask this same question for the third time you keep skipping over.

"What I am asking is what is the foundation for saying these people HAVE dual citizenship? How did they get it? Did they seek it out? Actually apply? What I was able to find out myself is that being illegible for citizenship by right of return isn't the same as actually applying for it and some conspiracy folks are claiming these politicians are dual when they are merely eligible due to Israel's right of return laws or due to having married an Israeli citizen."

Rusty,

I would like Levin to explain to me, but he ignores that question, but will answer others. Bachman is now a dual citizen of Sweden I believe, she applied for it, and she should have her ass booted too. The bottom line is they need to be clear if they are or are not a dual citizen, and if so to step down, and I mean NOW. Being eligible and actually doing it are two different things!

I am Irish and French, but that does not make me anything but a U.S. citizen. If Israel make all world Jews Israeli citizens, and excludes me for being Irish-French, is that not then RACISM? If France makes all in the world with 50% French blood, citizens, but excludes Jews, does that make them racist? Would you want your children, or your neighbors children, to die for a country that would deny them citizenship, or one that is clearly Racist?

I will keep digging into your first question, but so far after contacting a number of Jewish Politicians, they have all remained mute, strange indeed,,,but I will keep digging into this very, very important question.

BTW, what exactly do you "agree to disagree" about, putting the U.S. interest first, above all other foreign states??:ummm:

O

 

[poppop]

http://dominicanewsonline.com/news/...against-politicians-holding-dual-citizenship/ Mabye this will help answer your question rusty,I hope.

 

[Rusty McNeil]

http://dominicanewsonline.com/news/...against-politicians-holding-dual-citizenship/ Mabye this will help answer your question rusty,I hope.

Thanks, that's pretty typical if all I've been able to find on it as well. No where have I found HOW these folks came by duality, which if you look in to it can come by myriad ways often not requiring any action by the person receiving it.

 

[ZackDaniels]

BTW, what exactly do you "agree to disagree" about, putting the U.S. interest first, above all other foreign states??:ummm:

Simply put, the problem is that U.S. interests and foreign state interests are viewed as the same thing. Putting down the big red menace was the propaganda for Vietnam and Korea. War on Terrorism for Iraq and Afghanistan. Etc. etc.

Letting the rest of the world go unchecked means we still need to deal with the problem, but then it's far more powerful and right on our front door.

You either buy that or you don't, but that's the justification.

 

[Rusty McNeil]

Rusty,

I would like Levin to explain to me, but he ignores that question, but will answer others. Bachman is now a dual citizen of Sweden I believe, she applied for it, and she should have her ass booted too. The bottom line is they need to be clear if they are or are not a dual citizen, and if so to step down, and I mean NOW. Being eligible and actually doing it are two different things!

I am Irish and French, but that does not make me anything but a U.S. citizen. If Israel make all world Jews Israeli citizens, and excludes me for being Irish-French, is that not then RACISM? If France makes all in the world with 50% French blood, citizens, but excludes Jews, does that make them racist? Would you want your children, or your neighbors children, to die for a country that would deny them citizenship, or one that is clearly Racist?

I will keep digging into your first question, but so far after contacting a number of Jewish Politicians, they have all remained mute, strange indeed,,,but I will keep digging into this very, very important question.

BTW, what exactly do you "agree to disagree" about, putting the U.S. interest first, above all other foreign states??:ummm:

O

I agree with you in your suspicions based on their silence. If they are Dual and are asked how they came by it then they should answer up and resolve it. Silence just makes it worse.

As for Israel offering citizenship to all Jews. Israel was founded as an escape hatch for the words Jews who have been persecuted for a 1000 years at least the world over, mostly by intensely xenophobic and racist European nations, not just the WWII thing either. It is what it is. Israel IS a nation of and for the Jewish people because of the way history has rolled, and is a product of the persecution that has gone on for centuries.
It was founded on a call to bring the people together in a nation / haven of safety.
Would you have them annihilated? That's what almost every country in the region would like.
You're throwing the racism thing around pretty freely but it sounds to me like Jew hating conspiracy theories are every bit as racist as any of your examples.

Israeli is our ally pure and simple, and a barrier to "those who intensely hate the USA" from coming into more and power and becoming even more fundamentally terroristic than they already are.

In my mind and humble opinion, Israel's interests are our interests, they are not diametrically opposed.

 

[ouchez]

Simply put, the problem is that U.S. interests and foreign state interests are viewed as the same thing. Putting down the big red menace was the propaganda for Vietnam and Korea. War on Terrorism for Iraq and Afghanistan. Etc. etc.

Letting the rest of the world go unchecked means we still need to deal with the problem, but then it's far more powerful and right on our front door.

You either buy that or you don't, but that's the justification.

Zack,

Another side is that by the U.S. always intervening we have actually made things far worse. But then you must totally ignore our Founding Fathers demands for no entangling foreign treaties, or foreign wars, large standing armies, hell from that point let us just proceed to cut away that old useless, out of date Bill Of Rghts and Constitution,,,hmmmmI think that is what is taking place right now,,,and has been for some time:ummm:

Those 4 wars you mentioned, all Illegal BTW, how did, are, they turning out?

O

 

[Rusty McNeil]

Letting the rest of the world go unchecked means we still need to deal with the problem, but then it's far more powerful and right on our front door.

You either buy that or you don't, but that's the justification.

Well said.

I do buy it, wholeheartedly.

Pragmatism versus idealism.

Idealism = Things are what we wish them to be.
if you buy into that to deep reality has a way if bitch slapping you back to pragmatism in a hurry

 

[ouchez]

I agree with you in your suspicions based on their silence. If they are Dual and are asked how they came by it then they should answer up and resolve it. Silence just makes it worse.

As for Israel offering citizenship to all Jews. Israel was founded as an escape hatch for the words Jews who have been persecuted for a 1000 years at least the world over, mostly by intensely xenophobic and racist European nations, not just the WWII thing either. It is what it is. Israel IS a nation of and for the Jewish people because of the way history has rolled, and is a product of the persecution that has gone on for centuries.
It was founded on a call to bring the people together in a nation / haven of safety.
Would you have them annihilated? That's what almost every country in the region would like.
You're throwing the racism thing around pretty freely but it sounds to me like Jew hating conspiracy theories are every bit as racist as any of your examples.

Israeli is our ally pure and simple, and a barrier to "those who intensely hate the USA" from coming into more and power and becoming even more fundamentally terroristic than they already are.

In my mind and humble opinion, Israel's interests are our interests, they are not diametrically opposed.

Rusty,

Ally?????,,please go to the USS Liberty Site, and then google Jonathan Pollard, with friends like that we do not need enemies.:bang head: Conspiracy theories they are not:rofl_200:

I will have to say Rusty, that I strongly disagree with your above statements, and am more than willing to "agree to disagree "with you:clapping:, and I think someday you will see what is really taking place within and too this once great country that you and I both call home.

O

 

[Rusty McNeil]

Zack,

Another side is that by the U.S. always intervening we have actually made things far worse. But then you must totally ignore our Founding Fathers demands for no entangling foreign treaties, or foreign wars, large standing armies, hell from that point let us just proceed to cut away that old useless, out of date Bill Of Rghts and Constitution,,,hmmmmI think that is what is taking place right now,,,and has been for some time:ummm:

Those 4 wars you mentioned, all Illegal BTW, how did, are, they turning out?

O

I do agree that sometimes we have made them worse, most often in the recent decade when we let idealistic ideas that don't work drive us instead of situational realities.
Encouraging the "Arab Spring" in the name of Freedom is one good example, Bush Jr's handing of Iraq is another. Bush Sr got it right, knock the assholes back to sense without destabilizing the leadership and allowing more extremist elements to take over.

As for other wars? Ask South Korea and South Vietnam's citizens if they were glad we moved in.

When an aggressor nation as a whole invades an ally then turning our back is as immoral as closing your door and turning off the lights when your neighbor is being attacked.

 

[Rusty McNeil]

Jonathan Pollard, money hungry spy selling to opportunity. One spying incident does not a country make.
Countries have been spying on enemies and Allies alike since the beginning if time. We do it to.

USS Liberty? I dunno on that one, Friendly fire incident in the middle of an intense Six Day War?
Or something more sinister?

Take the whole thing in context and its kinda hard to buy a purposeful attack theory.

Why would they deliberately attack us? The only substantial Ally they have?

I put conspiracy theories regarding the USS Liberty into the same category as those regarding the Kennedy Assassination.

And of course I could be wrong about all of it be eating crow someday too. ; )

 

[ZackDaniels]

Zack,

Another side is that by the U.S. always intervening we have actually made things far worse. But then you must totally ignore our Founding Fathers demands for no entangling foreign treaties, or foreign wars, large standing armies, hell from that point let us just proceed to cut away that old useless, out of date Bill Of Rghts and Constitution,,,hmmmmI think that is what is taking place right now,,,and has been for some time:ummm:

Those 4 wars you mentioned, all Illegal BTW, how did, are, they turning out?

O

That is indeed another viewpoint. You seem to be quite clear on the answer to your question now:

BTW, what exactly do you "agree to disagree" about, putting the U.S. interest first, above all other foreign states??

I personally don't give much of a shit about foreign affairs. The blunt reality of it is the U.S. has enough resources that war is virtually unfelt by me: the average Joe. There's no WW2 style meat rations to support war efforts these days, and if not for news and associates being deployed it would be entirely invisible.

Compared to healthcare policies, tax policies, debt policies, bailout packages, etc. Which all have visible impact to my daily life by adding or subtracting from my paycheck and retirement. It's practically a part time job to stay informed in either arena with the state of today's reporting. So I have chosen domestic and financial policy. I'll talk till I'm blue in the face about that stuff, but honestly the only time I get interested in foreign matters or defense is when a trade tarrif or policy fucks around with the import cost of something like oil that has a direct effect on my very own life.

That's not to say it's not important to me, but I'm simply not informed enough to weigh in on that particular topic.

 

[ouchez]

Jonathan Pollard, money hungry spy selling to opportunity. One spying incident does not a country make.
Countries have been spying on enemies and Allies alike since the beginning if time. We do it to.

USS Liberty? I dunno on that one, Friendly fire incident in the middle of an intense Six Day War?
Or something more sinister?

Take the whole thing in context and its kinda hard to buy a purposeful attack theory.

Why would they deliberately attack us? The only substantial Ally they have?

I put conspiracy theories regarding the USS Liberty into the same category as those regarding the Kennedy Assassination.

And of course I could be wrong about all of it be eating crow someday too. ; )

Rusty,

Pollard, there are Avenues named after him in Israel, and we have dead CIA agents and top secrets given to Russia during the Cold War,,and Israel is clammoring for his release right to this day:rofl_200: There have been many more Israeli spy's since him, I could go on..........................

USS Liberty, lot's of reasons why they did it, even Israeli pilots now coming clean,,,,but what the hell, no need to believe what the U.S sailors and officers on board swear too to this day,,,Nah!!,,,let us just believe the words of a foreign nation,,,it was all a "mistake":damn angry:

O

 

[ouchez]

I do agree that sometimes we have made them worse, most often in the recent decade when we let idealistic ideas that don't work drive us instead of situational realities.
Encouraging the "Arab Spring" in the name of Freedom is one good example, Bush Jr's handing of Iraq is another. Bush Sr got it right, knock the assholes back to sense without destabilizing the leadership and allowing more extremist elements to take over.

As for other wars? Ask South Korea and South Vietnam's citizens if they were glad we moved in.

When an aggressor nation as a whole invades an ally then turning our back is as immoral as closing your door and turning off the lights when your neighbor is being attacked.

S. Vietnam's Citizens,,,they suffered greatly, we corrupted that nation, killed and burned and maimed their young, then lost the war and pulled out with our tail between our legs. They are communist today, the same that they were then, and we are friends and are moving jobs there, communist then communist today, just as is our great trading partner, China. Tough luck for the millions that died and suffered! We can now make money off them!1:rofl_200:

If you want to talk VN I will tell you the real truth, and it is not what you have been spoon fed by the propagandist, yes, we do actually employ propagandist.
None the less, both wars were unconstitutional and set the stage for what was to come, more and more wars. (For our kids and their kids to die and get maimed in).

O

 

[poppop]

S. Vietnam's Citizens,,,they suffered greatly, we corrupted that nation, killed and burned and maimed their young, then lost the war and pulled out with our tail between our legs. They are communist today, the same that they were then, and we are friends and are moving jobs there, communist then communist today, just as is our great trading partner, China. Tough luck for the millions that died and suffered! We can now make money off them!1:rofl_200:

If you want to talk VN I will tell you the real truth, and it is not what you have been spoon fed by the propagandist, yes, we do actually employ propagandist.
None the less, both wars were unconstitutional and set the stage for what was to come, more and more wars. (For our kids and their kids to die and get maimed in).

O

Our country is so far off track with the speical intrest wars for money,And on and on.Nothing you research makes sense.The goverment is just about themselves.New taxes and new laws to protect us,RIGHT.All the mainstream media.propaganda is full time news tv,I try not to watch.I believe we are going almost comminust.Ouchez you have done your reasearch,America was changing when we were small children,In small amounts.Now they have got it!I feel badly for our vets.Hell now i feel badly for us all!They blow the money we pay the dept,Not just our generation or the next,At this rate we are done.The old janis joplin song.Me and my bobby mc gee.We gotta get together as a country as people,We are all but outta time,Take care of you and yours.My children or grandchildren aren't going too Fight for there profit.Nothing about anyones freedom.All about money and control.CHANGE WE CAN BELIEVE IN!TRUTH IS NEVER ENDING BULLSHIT LIES CORRUPTION AND DEATH!THATS THE CHANGE!