My "start only with clutch pulled" problem revisited...

[j2dawson]

I posted awhile back about my problem with starting my Vmax. It will only start with the clutch pulled. In neutral or in gear, it will start with the clutch pulled but will not start in any configuration with the clutch out. I've checked (replaced) the diode pack, checked the kick stand switch and clutch switch. I can't find a "starter cutout relay" referenced in the downloaded service manual. One microfiche shows a seperate relay called that yet another indicates that on my '93 it is the same as the turn signal relay. Can anyone verify that? Also, if the neutral light comes on when the bike is in neutral, doesn't that indicate that the neutral switch is working or does it have another set of contacts for the starter circuit? I'm stumped.

The bike starts fine but only if I have the clutched pulled, if it is in neutral or not.

Help again please!

 

[dingy]

OK, here is a schematic I did that only shows the circuits involved with starting as it relates to the 86-93 Ventures. I think this is very close if not identical to the VMax circuits.

This is attached as a PDF file.

It shows the start circuit in three configurations.

1st: Key off, side stand down, transmission in neutral

2nd: Key on, Transmission in neutral

3rd: Key on, Transmission in gear, side stand up & clutch pulled in.

The starting relay you refer to is the 41R relay, it also houses the turn signal flasher circuits and canceling unit. I don't think this relay is your problem since bike will start under some conditions. Picture of it is attached. Not so much a relay as it is a black box, has about 9 wires going into it. Pictures attached. Also shown is a schematic of whats inside it. Note that the wires are not shown in the correct pinout on the 41R schematic, this was part of a complete Venture schematic I did that this was cut from

Wire colors shown on schematics are most likely not correct for the VMax.

Gary

 

[j2dawson]

OK, here is a schematic I did that only shows the involved circuits as it relates to the 86-93 Ventures. I think this is very close if not identical to the VMax circuits...

Thanks Gary, that will help.

Jim

 

[j2dawson]

I'm stumped. it looks like the problem has to be either the diode or the neutral switch but the neutral light works when in neutral and the diodes check ok and I even replaced the diodes.

Does anyone else have any clues?

 

[[email protected]]

Sounds like the neutral switch is sending a good signal to the light bulb in the dash, but not to the relay under the scoop. Maybe inspect the wiring from the N switch to the relay?

 

[j2dawson]

Sounds like the neutral switch is sending a good signal to the light bulb in the dash, but not to the relay under the scoop. Maybe inspect the wiring from the N switch to the relay?

Thanks, that'll be my next step. Right in the middle of this I got called to work and will be gone for three days. Oh, well, something to think about while killing time in yet another hotel room.

 

[jfeagins]

My 85 does this off and on. When I jiggle the shifter with my toe, it will go ahead and start most times. Sometimes I have to put it into gear and then back out again for it to go away. I suspect it is the neutral switch.

 

[j2dawson]

My 85 does this off and on. When I jiggle the shifter with my toe, it will go ahead and start most times. Sometimes I have to put it into gear and then back out again for it to go away. I suspect it is the neutral switch.

When it does it, is the neutral light on as normal? My neutral light works normally.

 

[dingy]

Just read another thread here and what I called the 41R relay in the second post, you guys refer to as the SCCR (Starting Circuit Cutout Relay).

Just looked at parts fiche, and they are one and the same, at least in 1988. P/N 41R-83350-71-00

http://www.vmaxforum.net/showthread.php?p=195228#post195228

Gary

 

[maxist]

The diode in the SCCR relay is most likely bad. If you look at the circuit, the path for the relay coil is going through the clutch switch (22) through diode (21) back through the neutral switch. The neutral light is independent of the path for the cutout relay.

 

[j2dawson]

The diode in the SCCR relay is most likely bad. If you look at the circuit, the path for the relay coil is going through the clutch switch (22) through diode (21) back through the neutral switch. The neutral light is independent of the path for the cutout relay.

Is that diode within the relay assy. itself or is it part of the diode pack? The diode pack tests good by meter and replacement so I'm assuming that I need to replace the relay assy., which is also the turn signal relay/cancel circuit.

Thanks for the help as that does look like the problem. Now the search is on for a used relay.

Jim

 

[jfeagins]

When it does it, is the neutral light on as normal? My neutral light works normally.

YES! My neutral light seems to work properly at all times, even when it won't allow the starter to engage. By temp. putting it in gear, then back out, the light will again be on, as it should be, except that after doing it, the bike will then start normally. Did it to me yesterday here at work as a matter of fact.

 

[j2dawson]

I think I located the SCCR and if I did, it is certainly bad as there is no continuity anywhere including through the relay coil. The only numbers I can read on the relay are:
1RL-92 ACA12115-3

I can't find that number in any of the online microfiche. If anyone could point me to the SCCR relay in any of the online microfiche so I can buy one I'd really appreciate it. This is for a 1993 Vmax which appears to have a seperate turn signal flasher and SCCR, unlike the older ones.

Thanks,
Jim

 

[dingy]

If you have a 4 wire starting relay, there is a diode in series with the coil of this relay. You will only read continuity in one direction. You have to flip meter leads to check current in both directions.

Does the bottom of your relay look like the second picture? This is the start relay from an 83 Venture, which on the scematic, looks identical. 84 & up Ventures went to the combined start/turn signal relay.

Gary

 

[j2dawson]

If you have a 4 wire starting relay, there is a diode in series with the coil of this relay. You will only read continuity in one direction. You have to flip meter leads to check current in both directions.

Does the bottom of your relay look like the second picture? This is the start relay from an 83 Venture, which on the scematic, looks identical. 84 & up Ventures went to the combined start/turn signal relay.

Gary

Yes, that is the relay that I have and it was bad. I know about the series diode and either the diode or the relay coil was open. I found a new one locally, naturally overpaid for it, and just installed it and the bike is finally fixed.

Thanks to all who helped me troubleshoot this problem.

Now on to my oil leak.

Jim

 

[dingy]

You might find these on ebay cheap, they were only used in the 83 Venture.

P/N on relay is 12R OMRON 0743D9

You would be surprised how many Venture parts fit the VMax, which stands for Venture Maximum.

If the part number starts with a 26H, it was on a Venture first.

Gary