Nitrous for Mr. Max?

[srx2002]

Hello there, I have a stock 2006 . I was looking around the web and stumbled upon some Nitrous systems for motorcycles. I'm not familiar with NOS...and was wondering if anyone here have tried NOS on the Vmax? I'm also wondering if the stock engine components can hold up to those kits. I would be looking for a small HP gain of about 20 HP...nothing to radical.

P.S If anyone has ever tried what I'm asking...could you please give me some info on what kit would be best for the vmax ( I found many different companies that sell nitrous )

ANy help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[shawn kloker]

Rod from Pro Chassie Racing is a nitrous master.His link is down below this for questions under venders.

 

[Rusty McNeil]

Only what I have heard as I haven't done this yet is that the Max is easily capable of tolerating a 30-40hp nitrous shot without mods or retarding timing.

Here is what I do know from quite a bit of F/I experience with having gone the F/I route on several cars...

Nitrous is similiar to turbo or supercharging in that cylinder pressures are raised drastically, the same as in forced induction. Most motors can handle a reasonable amount of additional machanical stress that comes from this if it is kept to 20-30% of the motors rated horsepower..
It is the added possibilty of pre-ignition/detonation that usually kills motors running Nitrous or F/I due to failure to properly maintain an ideal Air Fuel ratio which when actually running boost or nitrous should be around 11.5:1-12:1 The bigger the shot the richer the mixture should be to help control detonation if not pulling out some timing.

Beware of going overboard with the extra fuel also cause this can create "cylinder wash" wherin the extra unburnt fuel washes the lubricating oil off of the cylinder walls and will score the hell out of the pistons/rings/cylinders and then oil consumption goes way up and compression goes way down.
No broken parts but an effectively trashed motor nonetheless.
(I won't say exactly how I learned this except to say that a cylinder bore/re-ring job and new pistons were very expensive on my wifes "04 350Z, boy was she pissed but it was her idea in the first place)


Knowing the proper ratio between the fuel jets and the n2 jets is critical to maintain this A/F ratio and the fuel pressure is critical because if it is not stable the mixture won't be either. If the fuel pressure drops while spraying nitrous the whole mixture will go lean and things break from detonation/pre-ignition; usually piston crowns/ring lands. A dedicated fuel pump and pressure regualtor for the fuel jets is a necessity in my mind rather than just tapping off of the stock fuel pump. You want to actually test the fuel pump pressure while "free flowing" the pump into a bucket to know what the pressure is before consulting a jet table to pick out jets.

If you maintain an ideal A/F ratio and avoid detonation you'll know when you've reached the mechanical stress limit of the motor when you break a rod

Another thing to keep in mind is that the Vmax motor is not nearly as "overbuilt" as far as mechanical strength goes when compared to the latest sportbike motors....

I do plan on doing this someday and would not be afraid to try it on a stock Max as long as it was kept under 30-40hp or so....


Just my .02

Hello there, I have a stock 2006 . I was looking around the web and stumbled upon some Nitrous systems for motorcycles. I'm not familiar with NOS...and was wondering if anyone here have tried NOS on the Vmax? I'm also wondering if the stock engine components can hold up to those kits. I would be looking for a small HP gain of about 20 HP...nothing to radical.

P.S If anyone has ever tried what I'm asking...could you please give me some info on what kit would be best for the vmax ( I found many different companies that sell nitrous )

ANy help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[DOCTORFJ1]

Here Again Another Person Talking About Nos That Has Never Done It On A 1000cc Bike Or Bigger.don`t You Love When Someone Gives You Advice On Somethine They Never Did.
I Have Done This Alot.you Will Be Safe With A 80 Hp Shot Or Smaller.and Keep The Jets Two Steps Away From Each Other.
With A Botton On The Handle Bars To Activate The Nos.

 

[mikemax04]

Beware of going overboard with the extra fuel also cause this can create "cylinder wash" wherin the extra unburnt fuel washes the lubricating oil off of the cylinder walls and will score the hell out of the pistons/rings/cylinders and then oil consumption goes way up and compression goes way down.

(I won't say exactly how I learned this except to say that a cylinder bore/re-ring job and new pistons were very expensive on my wifes "04 350Z, boy was she pissed but it was her idea in the first place) Just my .02

Oh common Rusty, tell us how you managed to run that 350Z so rich to make it seize, or did it? Did that to a small hydroplane I built long time ago. It threw me in the middle of the lake and kept on going, shot up the rocky embankment and seized itself from lack of cooling. Should have had a dead man's switch. Live and learn.

 

[Rusty McNeil]

Here Again Another Person Talking About Nos That Has Never Done It On A 1000cc Bike Or Bigger.don`t You Love When Someone Gives You Advice On Somethine They Never Did.
I Have Done This Alot.you Will Be Safe With A 80 Hp Shot Or Smaller.and Keep The Jets Two Steps Away From Each Other.
With A Botton On The Handle Bars To Activate The Nos.

That's a really helpful post, almost enough info for someone to go right out and install a nitrous sytem huh?

Way to go, sign on to try to sell some stuff (which is great cause we need all the vendors on here we can get) and then the first REAL post you make insult the hell out of a member with obviously not having read or comprehended the post your responding to.


The guy was asking for Information

I said in regards to the amount of shot that a max could handle..

"Only what I have heard as I haven't done this yet is that the Max is easily capable of tolerating a 30-40hp nitrous shot without mods or retarding timing."

Admitting up front I wasn't sure about the Max specifically......

Proves you did not really even read my post because the part of my post that I chose to qualify by stating my inexperience in the matter is the only part you chose to attack..rather than simply saying

"hey, I've gone as high as 80 HP and it'll handle it"

Makes you look pretty smart doesn't it???

The rest of my post is NOT my opinion but pretty solid facts.

Anyone who believes you can put Nitrous to a motor containing cast rods and pistons and push a 70% horsepower gain out of that motor without any regard for timing retard and without any SPECIFIC attention to avoiding detonation is going to have a busted motor, maybe not today but sooner or later. Are motors that break instead of wearing out part of your philosophy?

Would you do this long term on your daily driver?

Or is "Handling it just fine" to you simply not breaking anything till the next teardown on your 1/4 mile drag bike?

Everything else I said is based on over 25 years experience building and racing small and big block chevys (many of them supercharged either roots style or centrifugal) and in the last ten years or so on Nissan Z cars (I-6's and V6's) and Toyota I-6 Supra's running Turbos' and Nitrous at the same time. I've had plenty of Nitrous experience just not on the Max.

A fast motor that breaks is no fun.

The theory and approach to fuel management and ignition timing and how it relates to detonation, and that the theory applies the same to F/I as it does to nitrous IS fact and if it's lost on you then too bad for you and your customers.

What if the poor guy hits the track with an inadequate fuel system and his fuel pump craps out or drops in pressure while he is spraying?

Any opinions on plugs?

How about a rev-limiter? Or at least a window switch? I've seen plenty of bikes and cars screwed up from someone to busy trying to turn thier nitrous on and off and shift at the same time they ended up accidentally tagging a valve on thier very first pass with nitrous because rpm's were coming on so much faster than what they were used to.

Is there ever a time to address timing retard?

Is fuel pressure never a concern?

Is an auxiliary fuel pump a bad idea?

Is ringwash a myth?

C'mon, Give the poor guy some info he can really use, in the process go ahead and refute what I've said with facts if you like rather than pompous insults or attacking me and contributing nothing to what the guy is asking for....if you are in the business why not help the guy out for real?


I'm not one of those people that go around saying Nitrous will "blow" your motor up 'cause I know that's a load of crap but I do believe it requires careful attention to these issues if it is to be a long term deal rather than fun for a few passes till your sponsor buys you a new motor..

And if I was looking for someone to buy/install one for me I sure wouldn't want it to be someone with such a "devil-may-care" attitude when it came to MY motor....

And since you started out being a smart ass here is my shot back;

Caps go at the front of the sentence not on every single word.

Saying "NOS" shows you've watched too much "Fast and Furious" and " Biker Boys"

Button is spelled button not "botton"

And you need to spell check your website also...

 

[Rusty McNeil]

Oh common Rusty, tell us how you managed to run that 350Z so rich to make it seize, or did it? Did that to a small hydroplane I built long time ago. It threw me in the middle of the lake and kept on going, shot up the rocky embankment and seized itself from lack of cooling. Should have had a dead man's switch. Live and learn.

It didn't sieze it went so rich that excess fuel washed all the lubrication off of the cylinder walls and glazed/scored the walls killing the ring seal. It started burning oil at the rate of about 1 quart every 800 miles and dropped compression to about 105psi.

The way the ATI procharger system is set up is that an auxiliary fuel pump kicks on and "overdrives" the injector pressure as needed to maintain the right A/F ratio.
In addition to this I was running larger injectors and a 1:1 rising rate fuel regulator on the factory fuel delivery system.
The auxiliary fuel pump is operated by a boost referenced Aeromotive fuel pump conytoller that has several "sliders"
that are the setpoints. If you set the controller to recognize that 8 psi is max boost then 8psi is divided by the 5 slider adjustments on the controller. As boost rises each setpoint becomes active and applies a preset voltage to the auxiliary fuel pump. It's basically a variable speed drive for a fuel pump. The higher the boost, the more voltage to the Aux pump, more speed from the pump and the higher the fuel injector pressure.

The Wideband commander that is on my bike now was part of this system as well as a system called the J&S Ultrasafeguard to retard timing via RPM and boost reference as well as a failsafe knock referenced timing retard.
The Aeromotive is quite accurate for tuning fuel pressure to create a correct fuel curve across a range of boost pressures.
This is how it's done on the 350Z because the software is not available to just plug in and play around with the ECU like it is on a lot of domestics. The ECU can be reflashed but you either mail it off and hope it's right or go to one of the only two places in the US that can reflash it on a dyno. And then if you change you setup you're right back to square one.
The other way this can be done which I elected to not do is a piggyback managemement system but I really don't care for that approach as what they do is make all the sensors "lie" to the ecu to get the wanted result. Simply jacking the fuel pressure up as needed seems much more simple and clean, and the results were perfect.

Anyway,
What happened is that the Aeromotive fuel pump driver was located in the glove box box behind the passenger seat and my wife threw a book on top of it and pushed one of the setpoints as rich as it could go.
She went into hard boost on the highway racing someone and it started blowing a lot of black fuel smoke until she noticed it and backed out of it...too late tho' ...it drove fine afterwards but not to peppy and lot's of white oil smoke coming out the tailpipe.....a compression test showed a drastic loss of compression and teardown showed the rest....

 

[mikemax04]

I bought a new 1984 ZX300 turbo. Nice car but was NO Toyota in quality. My hot rod days go back to the stone age where a street hot rod was taking a big Olds engine, punching it out to 418 cubes, 11.5 pistons, two dual line Holleys and an Iskendarian RR3 roller cam that barely idled at 2K+ and drank a half tank of gas just going to the drive-in. Things were crude in comparison to todays power systems but we sure had fun.

 

[DOCTORFJ1]

Hear again you do not understand what i am saying,you have never done this on a bike,this is not a small block chevy,bikes and cars are night and day different.
the rods in a bike are forged steal,not cast steal like a car.I am running 120 hp shot of nos and i have no timing retard,with over 200 passes on the race track,in the 7:90`s @ 165 mph,no problems.
NOS, stands for Nitrous Oxide Systems,not because of any stupid movie,i was spraying nitrous long before that movie!
With a nane like mr. max I would have thought you were an expert on v max bikes.not an english teacher.

 

[Rusty McNeil]

Hear again you do not understand what i am saying,you have never done this on a bike,this is not a small block chevy,bikes and cars are night and day different.
the rods in a bike are forged steal,not cast steal like a car.I am running 120 hp shot of nos and i have no timing retard,with over 200 passes on the race track,in the 7:90`s @ 165 mph,no problems.
NOS, stands for Nitrous Oxide Systems,not because of any stupid movie,i was spraying nitrous long before that movie!
With a nane like mr. max I would have thought you were an expert on v max bikes.not an english teacher.

I'm not Mr. Max, that was the title on the original post.

Please try to keep up O.K.?

There wasn't much in your original slam at me to understand or not understand..You simply slammed me and then said 80hp is O.K.
That may well be true as all I said is from what I have heard 30-40hp should be easily tolerated...

I did not say that was the limit.

Are you spraying 120 on a stock Max motor? Or a different bike?

Are you running 120 shot on a stock motor with pump gas or race gas?...all these things matter a lot!

Are you running 7.90's on a stock motor Max or your fully built FJ (which looks like a hell of a nice bike by the way)

I did not start out slamming you or acting like a jackass so if you have something technical to contribute lets hear it.

I'll be the first to admit that I have not done nitrous on a Max, (I have done it on other bikes though, KZ1000 and V45's and V65's and even a '78 Goldwing) but internal combustion theory applies to all internal combustion motors. Inattention to detonation control WILL eventually catch up with you. If you are as experienced as you seem to be I'm guessing you ARE doing something in this regard by some method either through the use of timing control, reduced compression, a "good and rich" mixture or the use of race gas, but I'm not hearing it.

If my points are wrong then tell me where exactly I am wrong. I would love a technical discussion rather than someone coming on here and telling me I don't know what I am talking about without knowing anything about me or my experience; Nor does it make you look good as a vendor.

Yes I realize that static load (weight) is a large contributor to detonation and that it is less on a bike and therefore won't happen as quickly but nonetheless....
I could even be wrong about the Max's pistons and rods, that is possible.
But it's a pretty far reach to say that all bikes have forged rods. Some cars have cast rods, some have forged rods and the same goes for bikes too..various combinations of either forged or cast pistons (or Hypereutectic) and or rods.....it depends on how much $$$ the manufacturer chose to spend.....
This is a very technical matter and simply slapping something on a motor and hoping for the best is not the way to go unless you or your customer have lot's of money and even more patience.

 

[Dreamster66]

Welcome back Rusty..... please stay awhile this time, ok?:eusa_dance:

 

[Rusty McNeil]

Welcome back Rusty..... please stay awhile this time, ok?:eusa_dance:

Thank you,

And my apoligizies to all for my abrupt and some what immature departure last time.

 

[Dreamster66]

not immature in my book.....sometimes people has to "walk away" and step back for a while.
Myself and I assume others hold nothing against you.....BUT.... if you leave again, I'm coming down there and stealing your max....lol
Need to get down there to see the Cowboys play, so I might as well kill 2 birds with 1 stone, huh?
Randy

 

[srx2002]

Hello there, me again...

Ok from what I read from the above posts...I'm still not sure if it's safe to run Nitrous on a stock motor, I'm only looking for about 30 Hp gain and it's not for drag racing or anything...it's mainly for every day riding . I would just like the power there for when I need it sometimes when playing around with my friends with the R6's and other sportbikes.


Does anyone know of a company or URL where Nitrous has been tested on the vmax and maybee sell a bolt on kit type of thing???

Thanks again

 

[Dreamster66]

Hello there, me again...

Ok from what I read from the above posts...I'm still not sure if it's safe to run Nitrous on a stock motor, I'm only looking for about 30 Hp gain and it's not for drag racing or anything...it's mainly for every day riding . I would just like the power there for when I need it sometimes when playing around with my friends with the R6's and other sportbikes.


Does anyone know of a company or URL where Nitrous has been tested on the vmax and maybee sell a bolt on kit type of thing???

Thanks again

If its for everyday riding, why want nitrous?
if anything, go with a stage 7..... I think I might know where you're coming from..... the 'max power is GREAT til you get used to it.....now it might seem like "not enough" power?
MORE POWER....... thats what drove Tim "the tool man" crazy!
IMHO, just go with the stage 7 or try what everyone was talking about in other posts.....catch the vboost open and unplug it.
Randy

 

[srx2002]

ok, I was contemplating an exhaust and a stage 7 kit as well....but again...I've heard so many things about the stage 7..some have good luck, some cant get them tuned at all...and I'm satisified with the way the stock vmax performs around town......I would just like that " extra kick " when my friends with the sportbikes ride with me on a sunday afternoon.

I looked at it this way

exhaust -> 1200.00 bucks
stage 7 -> 200-300 bucks

*** this setup maybee give ya an extra 20 HP, and that's if I can get it tuned in *****

Nitrous -> 700-800 dollars

*** this can give me 30-40 HP, It can be removed, and there when I need it at WOT. ****


so...as you see...I'm in a pickle.

Question: Is there a company out there that does the Nitrous on the vmax's and can provide info and myabee sell a complete kit?????

that's basically all I need, just a URL or contact for a company that does this vmax's. I can contact them for specifics.


thank you

 

[Rusty McNeil]

Hello there, me again...

Ok from what I read from the above posts...I'm still not sure if it's safe to run Nitrous on a stock motor, I'm only looking for about 30 Hp gain and it's not for drag racing or anything...it's mainly for every day riding . I would just like the power there for when I need it sometimes when playing around with my friends with the R6's and other sportbikes.


Does anyone know of a company or URL where Nitrous has been tested on the vmax and maybee sell a bolt on kit type of thing???

Thanks again

I would want the exhaust anyway but bang for the buck you can't beat nitrous.

OK...I think Mr. FJ and I can both agree that you WILL be OK at that amount of nitrous.
I know plenty that are using twice that on a stock Max with no problems on pump gas and running full timing.

For my money the Kit from Holley is one of the better and more complete ones out there.

http://www.holley.com/03008NOS.asp

If you will read this holley manual you can learn a lot just from that about the different things to consider in planning a system.


http://www.holley.com/data/Products/Technical/A5058-SNOS.pdf

Don't forget to go to a colder plug, I've learned that one the hard way.



This is what a typical kit installed ends up looking like. There are various places to put bottles and solenoids but most I have seen end up mounted similiarly.

http://www.vmaxchat.co.uk/nitrous.htm



The fogger type nozzles that has one hole in the manifold and sprays both fuel and n2 from one nozzle (it carries both fuel and n2 jets in the body of the nozzle where the lines connect) for each cylinder is the way to go considering space limitations on most bikes.

Just spend some time researching for your self so you can make sense of the answers you get for yourself instead of taking others (including mine) word for it.

I do not know of anyone selling a "specific" kit for the Max as just about any shop installing one is going to be using a major manufacturers kit or piecing it together out of others components. The bike specific part of a kit is going to be mounting and brackets etc.

There are a ton of options you can go for that do take some fab skills tp do right tho' but nothing an average "handy" mechanic could not do.

 

[srx2002]

Thanks for that LINK, really appreciate it. Thank you all for all the help and info.

( even though most of what you guys said..was way over my head) LOLOL...oh well..It's a learnig process I guess.

 

[Rusty McNeil]

OK, I talked to John at PCW. I was told that the stock Yamaha ignition module has very lazy timing and is fine for use with nitrous. They do not trust the Dyna 3000 unit.
John also said the vmax rods are very, very good rods.

As for a stock Max and nitrous he says 50 shot using a progressive controller but at that HP level eventually expect driveline failure (ring & pinion or driveshaft, maybe transmission)

 

[shawn kloker]

That's funny that John would say the stock rods are very good.From what I have heard a few good missed shifts or over revs can take the rods out very easily.

Sean haven't you had a lot of rod problems over the years?Stretched or out of round pin ends?