Electrical Gremlins 1 me 0

[Tex85]

Everything started yesterday after stopping to get gas at one point in a long ride yesterday. At first everything was turning over but very slowly, since the engine was warm it still kicked on even though it was not its usually peppy ignition. After the 3rd stop it simply wouldn't start again (a minimum of 50 miles between each leg, naturally the battery had ample time to recover). It would make an audible electric "click" each time the start button was depressed, but the engine would show no signs of even trying to turn over. I was able to put the bike in 2nd gear get a rolling start, drop the clutch and get moving again. I ended up having to do this a 2nd time since I had to stop for fuel, after fueling up the bike made it home without any troubles (almost 100 mile trip with an average speed of 95+).

I turned it off when I got in the garage and for grins tried to fire it up again, 1 click per start button depression... nothing else.

Now I am at a loss. I was hoping that it would be the battery that was causing the problem but after hooking jumper cables to my car and attempting to jump the bike I get the same behavior. However when connected to my car via jumper cables I can get it to turn over and on by shorting the positive and negative leads attached to the starter however it does not sound how it used to, a bit sluggish). When the jumper cables are removed doing the same short simply shuts off the electrical, when I stop the short the fuel pump and vboost come on like I just turned the key from off to on. I made a quick video so you can see/hear what is going on with the electrical clicking noise, every click is a start button depression. Also attached a pick showing the battery level while idling (it fluxes +- .5 at idle).

Any thoughts? Is it a bad starter?

Thanks in advance!

Ryan


*NOTE* Seems the forum did not allow the video file, it can be found here http://raustin.com/electrical_clicking.m4v

 

[DMAN999]

If I'm not mistaken 15.5 Volts at Idle would indicate a Regulator/Rectifier Issue.
Read this to see what it should be reading and how to test various compomemts:
http://www.vmaxforum.net/showthread.php?t=19108

I'd check the R/R connections first and see what they look liek and also test the Stator.

 

[Tex85]

Based on that thread there is nothing about 15.5 being too high just 13v+ is "looking good." When rev'ed to 2500 rpm it mentions 14-14.4 is perfect, but nothing about greater than those values. Just below the 14-14.4 it says >13v = got work to do but I think that was supposed to be < based on the rest of the wording.

I replaced the R/R at the beginning of the year and everything electrical wise has been running like a champ until yesterday.

Going to tinker around testing different components to see if I can narrow down the problem.

 

[Tex85]

If I place a finger on the highlighted area in this image while hitting the start button I can feel the "click"

It seems that my problem could be with this box? Keep in mind I don't really know what I am doing here so please keep that in mind :rofl_200:

 

[Miles Long]

I turned it off when I got in the garage and for grins tried to fire it up again, 1 click per start button depression... nothing else.

Now I am at a loss. I was hoping that it would be the battery that was causing the problem but after hooking jumper cables to my car and attempting to jump the bike I get the same behavior. However when connected to my car via jumper cables I can get it to turn over and on by shorting the positive and negative leads attached to the starter however it does not sound how it used to, a bit sluggish). When the jumper cables are removed doing the same short simply shuts off the electrical, when I stop the short the fuel pump and vboost come on like I just turned the key from off to on. I made a quick video so you can see/hear what is going on with the electrical clicking noise, every click is a start button depression. Also attached a pick showing the battery level while idling (it fluxes +- .5 at idle).

Any thoughts? Is it a bad starter?

You are not shorting out the positive and negative leads when you do that box wrench thing - you are bypassing the relay function, by providing a direct route from the battery positive to the starter.
The starter motor itself is grounded by the mounting bolts. You should take the bolts out, clean all surfaces of paint and crud and retorque them. Disconnect the positive cable as well. Then use a jumper cable from the battery positive to the positive post on the starter. If the starter is good , the bike should turn over. You do not have to have the ignition on to do this test.
If the starter is bad, any manual will have the directions to disassemble and refurbish and test it. Many folks with older bikes upgrade to later model 4-brush starters.
If the starter motor works well, you should suspect the relay.
Cheers!

 

[DMAN999]

That look's like the Starter relay.
That could easily be bad and causing that problem.
As for the 15.5 V thing, I don't remember where on here I read that but If I recall correctly overcharging can be a problem on these bikes.

 

[Tex85]

Well I'm running to the hardware store to get something to clean of those bolts. I'll post the results. Thanks guys!

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[Tex85]

Miles I am trying to figure out how to do your test properly. I have cleaned everything up and disconnected the positive lead to the battery. I am trying to jump it with some spare wire but I don't think I am connecting yhr positive post of the battery to the starter (I'm not sure where that is if its not on the box I put up before). Sorry for the dumb question I am just real green in respect to bike care and maintenance at this point.

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[Miles Long]

Miles I am trying to figure out how to do your test properly. I have cleaned everything up and disconnected the positive lead to the battery. I am trying to jump it with some spare wire but I don't think I am connecting yhr positive post of the battery to the starter (I'm not sure where that is if its not on the box I put up before). Sorry for the dumb question I am just real green in respect to bike care and maintenance at this point.

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First thing to do (I should have mentioned this before) is to make sure that your battery connections are clean and tight. Also, follow the negative (black) ground wire from the battery down to where it connects to the bike - right next to the oil filling plug - and disconnect and clean this well (cable end and area around thread hole)
Next, set your multimeter to "DC volts" and measure your battery voltage. It should be at least 12.6 volts. If any less, hook up a charger to restore it to full power.
I didn't mean for you to disconnect the positive (red) battery wire, but if you have, that's O.K. for now. I meant to disconnect the positive wire from the starter motor itself. You will find the motor on the front of the engine, just above the oil filter, and behind the various radiator hoses. The positive connection is the one on front, covered with a rubber boot. Disconnect this.
Then, using a car jumper cable , connect one end of the cable to the now-exposed stud on the starter motor. Be certain that the clamp is only touching the stud, no other part of the bike.
Then, very carefully, touch the other end of the jumper cable to the positive battery post. Make sure to not touch this end to any other part of the bike.
The starter motor should turn over, if it is grounded well to the bike.
Make sure your bike is in neutral before attempting this test, and don't let the starter motor run for more than a few seconds. You are only checking to make sure it is operating correctly.
let us know how you do. Cheers!
p.s. don't worry about being green - everybody has to start somewhere.
And there are no "dumb' questions. Everyone on this forum will do their best to help you with any problems you might have. unk:

 

[wildweasel_pt]

As standard anything above 14.8v is too much for RR output/battery red.

 

[mvrk10256]

with the bike off. Put the v meter across the battery. Should read normal voltage. Then push the starter see the voltage drop. If it drops to nothing it means that there is internal damage on the battery and you need a new one. Basically see if you can get current to flow from the battery.

 

[Tex85]

Can't test the battery portion at the moment since I have the positive line off the starter. Bad news however with the starter disconnected (pain the ass to do as well with all those radiator hoses!) I connected a jumper cable to the exposed stem directly to the positive side of the battery and nothing happened other than a few sparks while making the connection. Should the relay and everything else remain connected? I am guessing at this point the starter itself is shot?

Odd thing though the same click happens with the positive to the starter disconnected. Did I do something wrong in my test or is the starter just dead?





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[CaptainKyle]

Unfortunately if you have full power going directly to the starter & its doing nothing it is toast. See if you can get anything up in there & tap on the oposite end of the starter
from where it goes in the engine & see if it does anything.

 

[95spfldmax]

As standard anything above 14.8v is too much for RR output/battery red.

+1..............+15V is bad for any 12V systems........

 

[Tex85]

I have wired everything back up at this point, unfortunately it still doesn't start (not that I expected it to). I made two videos that I am in the process of uploading to show 2 different things I did and maybe shed some light on my current situation to help in the diagnostic process. I figured show and tell would be best since I may be omitting something that could be important otherwise.

For both videos the bike was cold and choke was not engaged.

1.) http://raustin.com/vmax_electrical3.mp4
-Starts of at 12.88 with the bike off on my meter
-turn the key on and it levels off at 11.91
-hit the starter dips down to 11.36
-let it go it goes back up
-hit the start again for a similar dip
-let it go and it goes back up
-turn the key off and it goes back up to the 12.8 range

2.) http://raustin.com/vmax_electrical2.mp4
-Bike is attached to my car battery via jumper cables, multi-meter is not connected at first due to lack of extra hands
-start does the same click noise
- if I short the posts for the start relay the bike cranks and turns on
- the lights however are flickering and not getting steady power (based on the exhaust however the bike is far from primed or warm and ready to go)
-meter shows 13-13.5 at coldish idle
-throttled up it goes up to 19ish and that is only up to about half throttle
-after it turns off it continues to trickle down on the voltage to where it settled after a few minutes at 13.18 (I shut off the video before that time to reduce the file size).

Take a look at the videos and judge for yourselves. Based on that and what others have said it sounds like I may have two problems at this point. #1 and bad starter relay (which looks like an easy fix with the right replacement part) and #2 I am getting too much voltage from the R/R. Could I have wired it wrong and it took 3 months to act up? It seemed fairly simple, 1 ground plus I think 3 others wires that wired into an adapter for the rest of their journey to the harness.

I would have had this up sooner but my upload speed is the pits!

 

[Miles Long]

Good vids, Tex.
Looks as if your starter relay is not working. Obviously nothing amiss with the starter motor.
However, the s.relay may not be working because it is not getting voltage from the ignition components (working backwards - combined relay unit,starter switch, stop switch, ignition fuse circuit). The easiest way to check this is to disconnect the blue striped wire from the s.relay, and using a small jumper wire from the positive battery post, hook into the relay-side connector half. If the bike turns over, you will have eliminated the starter relay as the source of the problem. Then you work backwards......
BUT....you have also got some charging issues, that most likely are related to the starting issue. As others have said, way too much charging voltage is being fed into the electrical system! Should never be over 14.8 volts, even at higher rpm's. Obviously , the regulator portion of the regulator/rectifier (RR) is not doing it's job.
Obviously you have replaced the RR with a newer style OEM model, or another brand, since the early Max RR's did not have a separete ground wire - they used the mounting surface to provide the ground connection.
regardless of the type, all RR's use the ground connection to bleed off excess voltage. So you should first check to make sure that the black wire is in fact grounded. Check the connector for corrosion, then use your meter to check for continuity from the connector to a good ground point on the frame, or the negative battery post itself.
If you have a good ground and the RR is still putting out too much juice, it must have failed internally. It can be tested , using the procedures outlined in the "Electrosport" fault-finding chart (in the electrical forum stickies) It involves checking for proper diode operation. Your multimeter may or not be able to do this.
Good luck!

 

[Miles Long]

On second thought - on your '85 model, there would not have been a connector on the wiring harness for the black wire from the RR. So you must have connected it to a known ground. Check this connection again!
Cheers

 

[SpecOps13]

Wow, Too bad neither of our bikes would make it the 90 miles between us. I'm having charging issues with my 94. Between Kyle, You and Me we could solve all the problems.:sad2:

BTW, I Agree. Fantastic Videos.....

 

[CaptainKyle]

I can send you a known good solenoid if you want to try it. My 89 was doing the exact same thing last week & it ended up being the starter. I can send you both if you want to try them. As far as the regulator I cant remeber if that one was hard wired in or not. If it still has the plug on it I can probably get it replaced if not it will be up to the company as to rather they will warranty it.

 

[Tex85]

OK here are the results for today... First off I jumped directly to the blue wire (relay side) from the positive battery pole and absolutely nothing happened. Looks like that confirms a bad relay.

I went ahead and inspected the R/R to confirm its configuration. There are five wires coming from the device. 3 (white wires) for AC to the engine (via a connector), 1 red to an adapter that ends up going into the same bundle that goes to what looks like the main fuse or another destination (I connected it to an adapter that was already available, would it be better to hard wire straight to positive pole with an inline fuse?), last a black wire that is going to a known good ground (i moved it to where 3 other things are currently grounded to make sure). Even with changing the ground I am still getting 19 to over 20 at <4k rpm.

Should I try direct to battery with an inline fuse, would it even help?

@Kyle, how much for a new relay?

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