Extremely difficult to roll in neutral

[Throttle]

Alright, so here's something that confuses me.

My 2006 Vmax has always been extremely difficult to push/roll when the bike is not running. This is regardless of holding clutch in or neutral. Being my first shaft driven bike I figured this might be the norm. (However , as i think about it, I never noticed my father's Valkyrie or VTX being difficult to push when off.)

However, I took the battery out to put a new one in and needed to move the bike to get to my other motorcycle. When I went to move the bike (with battery out and a few of the connections and coil packs disconnected) I found it rolled extremely easy.

Why is this? Sorry if it is a real newb question.

Thanks ahead for your replies.

 

[RaWarrior]

I don't see how any electrical connections would affect how difficult the bike is to roll.

If the transmission is in gear with the clutch pulled it will be a little tougher since the clutch always will drag a bit, but in neutral it should roll freely.


I'd check for a sticking caliper. Go for a short ride. If it was difficult to push when you left, coast/engine brake to a stop and (carefully) feel the rotors...if one is hot, you found a dragging caliper.

If it wasn't, do a quick panic stop, hard on both brakes, and see if it is now hard to push.

In either case I'd pull all three calipers and inspect. Sometimes the pistons get gunky and stick a bit....a cleaning a lube should take care of it.

 

[Fire-medic]

I think "Ra" is on the right path, but from a point of safety from getting burned, do not feel the rotors!

Use the back of your hand against the calipers, or use a digital temperature instrument, better yet. Actually, you could probably sense the radiant heat w/o even touching the part.

I would also flush your braking systems, a piece of crud in either of the master cyl holes would cause the same thing. I used to use a MityVac to bleed the brakes, but have found that it is actually easier to use a 60 ml syringe and back-flush from the caliper bleeders or the slave cyl if working on the clutch. I had done this years-ago, but had gotten in the habit of using my MityVac until I had a particularly difficult time w/my VMax slave cyl, & after reading on here about it, broke-out my very old syringe to do it, and it did the job in about 5 minutes. I always disassemble the syringe & clean it in-between uses as I use a medical-grade syringe and not a mechanic's syringe. I use a short length of clear-plastic tubing from the syringe nipple to the bleeder, and a small hose clamp. Be sure and thoroughly rinse any spilled fluid immediately, and thoroughly, to protect painted surfaces.

In any event, something is really in-need of servicing, and you shouldn't be using the bike until you successfully trouble-shoot the problem.

In-defense of Ra's diagnosis, I had the same issue after I installed my first replacement set of pads in the rear, I bought the bike w/1700 mi. on it. The problem was that I didn't disassemble the caliper, I just pushed back-in the rear pistons & the brake began dragging until I disassembled it & cleaned the corrosion off the pistons. I re-used the original square o-rings & dust seals after using Brake-Kleen (CRC) on the parts. Be sure & use protective eyewear when using any solvent.
Typical rear brake caliper: http://www.ronayersmotorcycles.com/...=motorcycles&make=YAMAHA&year=1992&fveh=17995

Navigate from there to see the front brake caliper(s), that is how they are listed.

 

[Throttle]

Thank you gentlemen for your responses.

What I don't understand if it is brake related is why it would be difficult to roll when the bike is NOT running but in neutral and significantly easier when the bike IS running and in neutral.

I have had brake pad/caliper/rotor resistance before on other bikes and this is a totally different feeling. It feels as though it is engine resistance, if that makes sense. Or that something in the drivetrain is binding up.

And of course why it is extremely easy to roll now with the battery our and connections disconnected. I am not talking about "slightly easier to roll" I am talking "100X easier to roll." It rolls like a bike should now, whereas before I could barely roll it on flat surface when it was not running. I would literally start it just to roll it out of the way sometimes.

On any account I am waiting for a new battery to come in (should be here Wednesday.) I won't be able to test anything where I need the bike running until then.

Ask me any questions if it would help with any of your diagnosis's.

Thanks everyone.

Side note: I just sold my CBR 954 last night and need a Vmax ride to console myself. Therefore I hope this is not serious.

 

[one2dmax]

The bike will roll easier when running since the rotation of the engine and warmer oil will help overcome the friction between the clutch plates and other drivetrain parts. The oil can actually add a significant amount of friction. Pretty much getting ANYTHING moving requires the initial "resistance" to be overcome and almost always the remaining effort to maintain movement is less.

The other electrical issue should have no bearing what-so-ever on the bikes ability to roll. Perhaps you had something sticking like has been mentioned with the brakes.

 

[MaxMidnight]

Can we assume that you have checked the tyre pressures?

As the others have said, I can't think of any link between the battery and less rolling resistance other than some extra inertia caused by it's weight.

The vibrations from a running motor may encourage calliper pistons to withdraw a bit more...yes, I know that is extremely tenuous, but when desperate....

 

[RaWarrior]

I still have to say losing the battery is purely a coincidence, no way that could possibly affect your issues.

Now on a cold engine, in gear with the clutch pulled, I could see it being difficult to push, that would be much easier with the engine running. But it neutral it should make no difference at all. Does it get easier the instant the motor turns over, or gradually as it warms up? Any difference between pushing it forward vs backward?

My only other thought, and this is really grasping at straws, is you've got a cold-seizing bearing....trying to make a connection to a somewhat common problem on snowmobile motors. Buddy had a sled that we later found out had bad crank bearings. On a cold morning, it WOULD NOT want to turn over, you had to be superman to pull the cord. If you put a wrench on the clutch nut and forced it backward a bit, it would free up and pull over normally, and be fine all day until it totally cooled off again.

Maybe the big middle gear bearing is having trouble, and the oil flow/heat/vibration from a running motor frees it up?

One more thing.....is it related only to if the engine is running, or if you are sitting on the bike or not? If you have a binding u-joint possibly the change in angle from sitting on the bike frees it up, while trying to push (standing next to it) doesn't? Though u-joints seem to rarely ever go bad on these bikes.

 

[Miles Long]

To eliminate brake drag as a cause, just jack up the bike a bit, try spinning the front tire. For the back, put the bike on the centrestand, check out the resistance (caused by the drivetrain components)with the bike in neutral. Then pop off the caliper. If the brake pads had been dragging, resistance will be much less.
My back brake used to drag, I was replacing pads every 12,000 k. or so, so I thought it was the caliper, but a rebuild didn't help any. Turned out the master cylinder connecting rod to the brake lever had been adjusted improperly, at the dealership prior to purchase.
BTW, are you in Whitehorse?
Cheers!

 

[Rusty McNeil]

I put the pressure plate cover on wrong once, didn't line the hole and mark up right, and ran into this. But clutch function was affected too.

My bike is tough to roll in gear, clutch lever pulled, when cold. Obvious reason for that.

If its truly in neutral it shouldn't be hard to roll other than being a lard ass bike.

 

[06VMAXIMUS]

I usually check for a sticking caliper by jacking the bike up and spinning the wheel by hand. After spinning it, hit the brake lever a few times and spin it after each hit. If it gets progressively harder to spin, you got a problem with the caliper or master.

 

[Throttle]

Thanks all,

In response to RAWarrior - It gets instantly better the moment I started her, not gradually as I would expect if it was cause by cold. It also didn't matter if I was pushing forward or backwards, sitting on the bike or trying to roll it standing next to it.

In response to Miles Long - Nope: Yukon, Oklahoma Not quite as chilly, though I did live up in Blind River, Ontario for a bit.

In response to Rusty - hmmmm, check out the thread I had posted a few days ago titled "metallic pop when cranking." Smells clutch plateish, although it was awfully loud.

To all: It would make no difference if I had just came off a several hours ride and go to push her right after shutting her down. She would be warm as a muffin and still be hard to push.

I assumed having the battery out and stuff unplugged was a coincidence, just making sure there was no tom-foolery there.

I will take a look at the brakes as suggested. I have had them off and back on for a tire change, she was as tough to roll before as after. It is possible they could be dragging.

Again, thanks all for your responses. I will post the conclusion. Checked shipping on the battery and it should be here today, so I will have it charged up and ready to go hopefully tomorrow.

 

[dannymax]

Removing the battery would have no effect on the bike's rolling resistance....other than making it a few lbs. lighter. The only electrical components even remotely related to the brake systems are the brake light activation switches....as others have said, battery removal is only coincidental.

What about ambient temperatures? Rear gear oil gets really thick in colder temps.


Just read your post....that takes care of my suggestion! :confused2:

 

[alorio1]

I had the same issue. I have an 04 and a 85 Vmax. I noticed when moving the 04 around in the garage it rolled easily, like it was a 10 speed bicycle, the 85 was a chore to push around. I found one of my front calipers sticking/dragging on the 85 Max.

 

[gamorg02]

i'd say put the battery theory to bed by retrying your steps. put a battery back in and see if its still hard to push, then take it out and see if it reproduces. i can't think of a single thing that would cause that but wonder if it wasn't part of the process to put it in or out?

 

[johnpclynch]

Whenever you feel the bike is being difficult to roll (in neutral) I would lift each wheel off the ground and give them a spin - then remove OR push the pads back from the disc and try again to see if it improves.

If it doesn't then your problem could be wheel bearings or maybe something seizing in the gearbox? rule out the easy fix first because "metallic pop when cranking" doesn't sound good

 

[95spfldmax]

Assuming everything's normal internal to the motor......I, like most everyone here next suspect the brakes.....but this is most interesting and I am intrigued to find out what the answer turns out to be......this is a "good one".....

 

[MaxMidnight]

Whenever you feel the bike is being difficult to roll (in neutral) I would lift each wheel off the ground and give them a spin

I would have thought that if he is strong enough to do that then he wouldn't have an issue pushing it!

 

[06VMAXIMUS]

I would have thought that if he is strong enough to do that then he wouldn't have an issue pushing it!

They are heavy pigs for sure! I'm a little guy and struggle pushing the max compared to the 375lb sport bikes that I use to ride!

 

[redneksoldier]

If the only thing that makes it better is starting the engine and it becomes instantly easy to push, I would think that it has to be something internal to the motor, trans or gearbox. Maybe there is a bearing trying to seize up that the vibration or lubrication of the motor temporarily relieves. Definitely has nothing to do with the battery. Sticking brake calipers and clogged orifice in the master are the most common cause of this symptom in almost all bikes, but if a bike has a problem in this area the engine being started will have no affect on it.

 

[johnpclynch]

Pushing the bike around in 1st gear with the clutch in is very difficult, but start the engine and it becomes much easier (still with the clutch pulled - LOL)
static friction vs dynamic friction between the clutch plates etc