R1 vs FZR750 calipers?

[Ridin Dirty]

From what I been able to conclude from reading threads here, R1 and FZR750 calipers are direct bolt on replacements for 93-07 calipers. It seems the FZR's are considered much better than stock and the R1's are slightly better than stock. However, on FZR750 forums they change out the stock calipers for R1 calipers. Can anybody make sense of this contradiction?

 

[one2dmax]

The 6 piston calipers require more lever travel and less effort. Perhaps the sportbike crowd want lighter calipers? Perhaps they want a more solid lever feel that comes with the reduced fluid volume required to move the 4 pistons?

Sean

 

[Rollie]

From what I been able to conclude from reading threads here, R1 and FZR750 calipers are direct bolt on replacements for 93-07 calipers. It seems the FZR's are considered much better than stock and the R1's are slightly better than stock. However, on FZR750 forums they change out the stock calipers for R1 calipers. Can anybody make sense of this contradiction?

IMHO , R-1 calipers are more than slightly better than stock , and the difference between R-1 4 pot and 750 / Busa / Kaw / 6 pot is not worth spending a lot more of $ on , unless you make a habit out of late braking , need the max amount of braking or just like the looks. Both look great to me and will bring your speeds down MUCH better than stock. :clapping::clapping:

 

[maxrom]

IMHO , R-1 calipers are more than slightly better than stock , and the difference between R-1 4 pot and 750 / Busa / Kaw / 6 pot is not worth spending a lot more of $ on , unless you make a habit out of late braking , need the max amount of braking or just like the looks. Both look great to me and will bring your speeds down MUCH better than stock. :clapping::clapping:

I did reed somwhere that the R1`s work better when you change the master cylinder:ummm:

For myself i put R1`s for great look and doing different, and i`d just buy front left R1 calliper to put on back wheel (now one kind of brake pad:clapping

unk:

 

[Ridin Dirty]

IMHO , R-1 calipers are more than slightly better than stock , and the difference between R-1 4 pot and 750 / Busa / Kaw / 6 pot is not worth spending a lot more of $ on , unless you make a habit out of late braking , need the max amount of braking or just like the looks. Both look great to me and will bring your speeds down MUCH better than stock. :clapping::clapping:

I was planning on changing out the master cylinder also. Perhaps, I'll try a slightly smaller master than the stock 5/8" master, with the R1 pots and braided lines. A smaller than stock master will require more travel to displace a the same amount of fluid. This may provide more sensitivity. Similar to what happens when the 6 pot calipers are used with the stock master.

Does anyone know what size master is stock on the R1?

 

[gamorg02]

What's the difference between r1 and stock calipers

 

[Fire-medic]

The search engine is your friend here, use terms like master cylinder, caliper(s), R1, FJR1300, 4 or four piston, 6 or six piston, brakes, etc. Also try 'vintage brakes' which has a chart listing # & size/pistons on the y axis of a chart and master cyl. bore on the x axis. This gives a ratio # which is then compared to a known value for a 'good feeling' function of the master cyl at the lever. http://www.vintagebrake.com/mastercylinder.htm

Here is the thread it came from:http://www.vmaxforum.net/showthread.php?t=17036&highlight=vintage+brakes

This chart may also have had an earlier appearance on the forum. Whatever you do, be sure to count the total # of all pistons in both calipers, assuming you are doing this for the front brakes.

The early FZR 750/1000 brakes are the same, I believe, and I think 1995 is the only year the FZR1000 used the 6 piston Tokico's and after that I think the bike was the YZF 1000, which eventually became the R1. With the 1993+ VMax 298 mm rotors, any of these calipers will provide better braking. You don't have to spend a huge amount of $ to get them, if you are patient you can find them in good shape at a reasonable price. Of course you can find crash-damaged calipers from these same bikes being hawked on ebay motors for $160 apiece, stay-away! There is a big-enough supply of them available that you should be able to buy both for less than that, requiring nothing more than a good inspection/cleaninbg and some new "HH" rated pads. Sometimes you can even find the front master cyl, lines, and two calipers for less than what the pirates are trying to extort for a single 6 piston caliper.

I think Sumitomo was also a Yamaha brake supplier during these model years, and I am unaware of any preference of one manufacturer over the other.

 

[Ridin Dirty]

The search engine is your friend here, use terms like master cylinder, caliper(s), R1, FJR1300, 4 or four piston, 6 or six piston, brakes, etc. Also try 'vintage brakes' which has a chart listing # & size/pistons on the y axis of a chart and master cyl. bore on the x axis. This gives a ratio # which is then compared to a known value for a 'good feeling' function of the master cyl at the lever. http://www.vintagebrake.com/mastercylinder.htm

Here is the thread it came from:http://www.vmaxforum.net/showthread.php?t=17036&highlight=vintage+brakes

This chart may also have had an earlier appearance on the forum. Whatever you do, be sure to count the total # of all pistons in both calipers, assuming you are doing this for the front brakes.

The early FZR 750/1000 brakes are the same, I believe, and I think 1995 is the only year the FZR1000 used the 6 piston Tokico's and after that I think the bike was the YZF 1000, which eventually became the R1. With the 1993+ VMax 298 mm rotors, any of these calipers will provide better braking. You don't have to spend a huge amount of $ to get them, if you are patient you can find them in good shape at a reasonable price. Of course you can find crash-damaged calipers from these same bikes being hawked on ebay motors for $160 apiece, stay-away! There is a big-enough supply of them available that you should be able to buy both for less than that, requiring nothing more than a good inspection/cleaninbg and some new "HH" rated pads. Sometimes you can even find the front master cyl, lines, and two calipers for less than what the pirates are trying to extort for a single 6 piston caliper.

I think Sumitomo was also a Yamaha brake supplier during these model years, and I am unaware of any preference of one manufacturer over the other.

Thanks, Great links.

It looks like Ninjaneer already did the math on the R1 calipers, in the thread you linked.

1. The R1/R6 caliper has two 30mm pistons and two 27mm pistons.
   • This calculates out to : 2*(pi*(30/2)^2) + 2*(pi*(27/2)^2) = 2558.8272163489 mm^2 of effective area
2. The "sweet spot" ratio is 33-34:1 for a dual caliper setup
   • Let's shoot for 33.5:1
   • Therefore, the single-caliper-"sweet spot" ratio of interest is (33.5/2):1 = 16.75:1
3. So the bore of master cylinder that will supply the sweet-spot ratio has:
   • a cross-sectional area of: 2558.8272163489/16.75 = 152.7658039611 mm^2, and
   • a diameter of: 2*sqrt(152.7658039611/pi) ~= 14mm

I was able to find some reference to the Stock R1 master being 14mm. So, the factory master is the correct size to use with the R1 calipers.

It appears that the correct thing to do when using the R1 calipers is to also change the master to a 14mm unit. The stock master will bring the ratio down and reduce "feel"

 

[Elimax]

Great info, Ridin Dirty!

Here's my question for you:

You mentioned "I was able to find some reference to the Stock R1 master being 14mm"...where did you find that info?

I'd love to be able to get a list of well-known master cylinder bore measurements (you know, for other master cylinders). Any idea how/if this infor is available somewhere?

Thanks very much!

Elimax

 

[Ridin Dirty]

Great info, Ridin Dirty!

Here's my question for you:

You mentioned "I was able to find some reference to the Stock R1 master being 14mm"...where did you find that info?

I'd love to be able to get a list of well-known master cylinder bore measurements (you know, for other master cylinders). Any idea how/if this infor is available somewhere?

Thanks very much!

Elimax

Actually, I was just looking around different websites and found the 14mm number given a couple times. So, nothing very official.

Here's a link to an R1 forum talking about the bore size.
http://www.r1-forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=249354

I don't know if any lists are available.

 

[ninjaneer]

I'd love to be able to get a list of well-known master cylinder bore measurements (you know, for other master cylinders). Any idea how/if this infor is available somewhere?

This should help some: http://www.vmaxforum.net/showpost.php?p=212654&postcount=22

I was able to find some reference to the Stock R1 master being 14mm. So, the factory master is the correct size to use with the R1 calipers.

It appears that the correct thing to do when using the R1 calipers is to also change the master to a 14mm unit. The stock master will bring the ratio down and reduce "feel"

Actually, I was just looking around different websites and found the 14mm number given a couple times. So, nothing very official.
Here's a link to an R1 forum talking about the bore size.
http://www.r1-forum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=249354

Sorry if I come off critical of the latter thoughts, but for me: of course, "the factory master is the correct size to use with the R1 calipers". And as such, one should use a MC of the same bore size as that of the ones that a manufacturer couples with the calipers. I mean to say, I would be VERY surprised if a leading manufacturer like Yamaha would install a MC with a bore size that doesn't provide the "sweet spot" feel. It's not like they arbitrarily slap on any old MC. I'd bet dollars to donuts that some research is put in prior to the decision.

Now, for me the ideal master to use with an R1 caliper upgrade is the FJR1300 master (I forget which year--i think it's '93 or '03). It's 14mm and looks very close, if not identical, to the V-Max stock MCs. However, with that being said, I'm leaning towards Nissins because the FJRs are so rare.

 

[Ridin Dirty]

Sorry if I come off critical of the latter thoughts, but for me: of course, "the factory master is the correct size to use with the R1 calipers". And as such, one should use a MC of the same bore size as that of the ones that a manufacturer couples with the calipers. I mean to say, I would be VERY surprised if a leading manufacturer like Yamaha would install a MC with a bore size that doesn't provide the "sweet spot" feel. It's not like they arbitrarily slap on any old MC. I'd bet dollars to donuts that some research is put in prior to the decision.

Now, for me the ideal master to use with an R1 caliper upgrade is the FJR1300 master (I forget which year--i think it's '93 or '03). It's 14mm and looks very close, if not identical, to the V-Max stock MCs. However, with that being said, I'm leaning towards Nissins because the FJRs are so rare.

For me it was just confirmation that the correct thing to do is to also change the master cylinder, when using the R1 calipers. It seems that many times people are just bolting on the R1 calipers, and probably not thrilled with the results.

I'm going to try the following setup:

Nissin 14mm master
Braided lines
R1 blue spot calipers
EBC HH pads

 

[Thevmaxrider]

The problem, as I have been told, with the stock master and R1 calipers is the lever travel and the lack of ability to feather the brakes. With a Vmax (5/8") master cylinder the front brakes feel like an "on/off" switch. The stock R1 master cylinder is 14mm and provides very nice feedback through the lever when brakes are applied. The advantage of the R1 calipers mainly comes from them being a monobloc design. The late model Vmax calipers are a two piece caliper that can, and will, flex under heavy loads while the one-piece R1 calipers will not. The R1 calipers also dissipate the heat from the pads better which helps control brake fade under high heat conditions.

 

[bazwell]

The R1/R6 caliper has two 30mm pistons and two 27mm pistons.

1. • This calculates out to : 2*(pi*(30/2)^2) + 2*(pi*(27/2)^2) = 2558.8272163489 mm^2 of effective area
2. The "sweet spot" ratio is 33-34:1 for a dual caliper setup
   • Let's shoot for 33.5:1
   • Therefore, the single-caliper-"sweet spot" ratio of interest is (33.5/2):1 = 16.75:1
3. So the bore of master cylinder that will supply the sweet-spot ratio has:
   • a cross-sectional area of: 2558.8272163489/16.75 = 152.7658039611 mm^2, and
   • a diameter of: 2*sqrt(152.7658039611/pi) ~= 14mm

Ninjaneer, my head hurts! :ummm:

I did these sums before but I think I might have f*'d it up somewhere... but anyway, using your formula I worked it out for Brembo's with the 30/34mm bores.

• This calculates out to : 2*(pi*(30/2)^2) + 2*(pi*(34/2)^2) = 3227.92mm^2 of effective area

(more words, etc)

• a cross-sectional area of: 3227.92/16.75 = 192.71mm^2, and
• a diameter of: 2*sqrt(192.71/pi) = 15.67mm

Now, I've stuffed up the text...
and a 5/8 bore master cylinder is 25.4mm x 5/8 = 15.87mm, which means I can use my standard master cylinder with Brembo's, right?


Sweeeeeeet! :eusa_dance:

 

[ninjaneer]

...which means I can use my standard master cylinder with Brembo's, right?

You want to use two 4-pot Brembo calipers, right? If so, then based on that dude's table, I'd say you are mathematically correct.

 

[bazwell]

You want to use two 4-pot Brembo calipers, right? If so, then based on that dude's table, I'd say you are mathematically correct.

Oh, I thought it was your original post.
Yep, 2 x 4 spot brembo's.

I like that answer.

 

[ninjaneer]

The math is mine, yes; but the table I referred to is Michael's Morses' "sweet spot" Ratio Chart that Fire-medic divulged. I qualified my earlier post the way I did, because the calculations assume the "sweet spot" ratios as some kind of mathematical "truth".

 

[Lugan]

The problem, as I have been told, with the stock master and R1 calipers is the lever travel and the lack of ability to feather the brakes. With a Vmax (5/8") master cylinder the front brakes feel like an "on/off" switch. The stock R1 master cylinder is 14mm and provides very nice feedback through the lever when brakes are applied.

What you describe was exactly my experience using a 14mm R1 master with both stock calipers, and R1 calipers. Much much improved lever feel to modulate braking effort. The 5/8 (stock) or 14mm master will both stop/slow down the bike, but in stock form it's more difficult to do so smoothly.
In my experience though, I didn't notice (subjectively of course) much difference in overall braking ability. But those R1 calipers do look nice. :biglaugh:

 

[Lugan]

One more quick point, if you're looking to find out the bore diameter of a given master cylinder, it's cast into the aluminum body of the master, along the bore area, facing the rider... in my experience.

 

[AtlasMax]

I use 94 YZF 750 6 pot calipers (bolt on for my 97 Max) with HH pads, stock master cylinder and braided lines. There is NO comparison to stock, none at all. The bike feels like it will stand on its head if you grab the lever like you mean business and seems to have good travel to modulate intermediate braking.

My first ride out testing it literally scared the crap out of me with how much more braking ability I had.

In order of my "perceived" effect when I did the mods one step at a time:

HH Pads from stock organic, with all other factory parts - 30% increase in braking effectiveness

Braided lines, 5% increase (slightly better lever feel.. sponginess reduction)

6 pot Sumitomo calipers (Pure bolt on) with HH pads - 60% increase in braking effectiveness (And DAAAAM they look good. Hmmmm I will try to find some pics.

These are Perceived increases, seat of the pants feel stuff. I do not feel any need to make it brake better now...at all. You better have good springs (Progressive) and/or Ricor Intiminators/Emulators because that stock front will dive to China! Yes that was my next upgrade I did (Ricor/Progressive Springs/1" front lowered).