Injectors VMAX EFI

Ok... time to get a little technical! The only concern I have with the 600 TB's is the fuel flow with the injectors. I did some digging and found these numbers based on the different bodies.


GSXR TB specs:

750 & 1000 from 2000-2003

750 & 1000 are essentially the same

270cc/m injectors


600 from 2000-2003

As the 750 & 1000 except for:

230cc/m injectors

So here's a good link for calculating injectors and other things, did a quick check. Will get back to it a later. but it looks like we'll probably need an injector with more capacity to match the 1200 VMAX displacement. Anyway have at it and see what you all come up with.

http://www.msdfuelinjection.com/MSDInjectorV1/main.html

Here is a one that is a little easier to use:
http://injectorrx.com/sizing.html

Gary, where did you get the injector info from? Did you happen to compare the injector part #'s?

Birdoprey said:

Here is a one that is a little easier to use:
http://injectorrx.com/sizing.html

Gary, where did you get the injector info from? Did you happen to compare the injector part #'s?

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No I don't have them here. Will check tomorrow to be sure. Check this out it's an interesting read:

http://www.everettmail.co.uk/mods/mods_throttle_bodies.htm

If ya really want some flow, here are the spec's on Honda S2000 injectors. They are plug-n-play in the GSXR TB's

Birdoprey said:

If ya really want some flow, here are the spec's on Honda S2000 injectors. They are plug-n-play in the GSXR TB's

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Marren's 50 miles away from where I live. Once we get to the turbo stage of this development... :th_12:I'll need to drag the hot rod there I'm sure. Here's the link to their site: http://www.injector.com/

I belive that the injector from gsxr 750/1000 should be enough for a stk vmax engine, although near the limt, not do you think?

the.joker said:

I believe that the injector from gsxr 750/1000 should be enough for a stk vmax engine, although near the limt, not do you think?

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I believe your are correct. They are easy to change if there is a problem. Just exploring the different possibilities for perhaps a higher capacity injector for modified engines. I question weather the 600 TB's have the same injectors as the 750 and 1000. I will check tomorrow to see if the part numbers are a like.

the.joker said:

I belive that the injector from gsxr 750/1000 should be enough for a stk vmax engine, although near the limt, not do you think?

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The GSXR750/1000 injectors are MORE THAN ENOUGH for a stk V-max(and even most modified V-max's). The fact that the V-max is 1200cc v/s the 750cc and 1000cc bikes means nothing. What matters is hp potential and Brake Specific Fuel Consumption. The 750 makes prolly close to the same hp(at the crank) as a V-max(which has much more drivetrain loss), but the 1000 makes MUCH more(like 175-180 at the crank IN STK FORM). In fact, i've run several 1000's at over 170-175 at the rear wheel with STK injectors at stk fuel pressure. Even ran two with a 40hp dry shot and STK injectors at stk fuel pressure. We're talk'n around 200 RWHP. I also personally know of at least a dozen others running the same setups and can prolly find several dozen more.
Personally, i would not be concerned with running the 230cc injectors on a stk V-max with simple bolt-ons, though this would prolly be at the limit.

Birdoprey said:

The GSXR750/1000 injectors are MORE THAN ENOUGH for a stk V-max(and even most modified V-max's). The fact that the V-max is 1200cc v/s the 750cc and 1000cc bikes means nothing. What matters is hp potential and Brake Specific Fuel Consumption. The 750 makes prolly close to the same hp(at the crank) as a V-max(which has much more drivetrain loss), but the 1000 makes MUCH more(like 175-180 at the crank IN STK FORM). In fact, i've run several 1000's at over 170-175 at the rear wheel with STK injectors at stk fuel pressure. Even ran two with a 40hp dry shot and STK injectors at stk fuel pressure. We're talk'n around 200 RWHP. I also personally know of at least a dozen others running the same setups and can prolly find several dozen more.
Personally, i would not be concerned with running the 230cc injectors on a stk V-max with simple bolt-ons, though this would prolly be at the limit.

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+1, The gixxer 600/750 (1000 with mods) EFI intake w/stock injectors, along with the megasquirt ECU have been used on many occasion to power stock and beefed XS1100's with no problems. You might be able to swipe some ideas from this guy. http://users.hal-pc.org/~dhutch/

Birdoprey said:

The GSXR750/1000 injectors are MORE THAN ENOUGH for a stk V-max(and even most modified V-max's). The fact that the V-max is 1200cc v/s the 750cc and 1000cc bikes means nothing. What matters is hp potential and Brake Specific Fuel Consumption. The 750 makes prolly close to the same hp(at the crank) as a V-max(which has much more drivetrain loss), but the 1000 makes MUCH more(like 175-180 at the crank IN STK FORM). In fact, i've run several 1000's at over 170-175 at the rear wheel with STK injectors at stk fuel pressure. Even ran two with a 40hp dry shot and STK injectors at stk fuel pressure. We're talk'n around 200 RWHP. I also personally know of at least a dozen others running the same setups and can prolly find several dozen more.
Personally, i would not be concerned with running the 230cc injectors on a stk V-max with simple bolt-ons, though this would prolly be at the limit.

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I'm just throwing an idea around, but don't most of the in-line 4's have a much higher redline than the VMax. This would mean that the injectors are actually sparying more times to get to that peak HP. Since the VMax can't rev that high, wouldn't it need more fuel per stroke (since it is a 1200 vs a 750 or 1000?)
I wish I knew more about this stuff, and could help you guys out more.
Jeff

hubeerjw said:

I'm just throwing an idea around, but don't most of the in-line 4's have a much higher redline than the VMax. This would mean that the injectors are actually sparying more times to get to that peak HP. Since the VMax can't rev that high, wouldn't it need more fuel per stroke (since it is a 1200 vs a 750 or 1000?)
I wish I knew more about this stuff, and could help you guys out more.
Jeff

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Jeff,

You are correct in that the 750's and 1000's rev higher(MUCH higher infact), this is the main reason they make more hp. You can only get so much hp from a given cc's. Hp=Tq x RPM. Bigger motors make more TQ but don't spin as high. Smaller motors make less TQ but can spin higher. It takes a specific CFM to provide HP, no matter the rpm.
No matter how you slice it though, its CFM that allows the hp. Wether you have a big motor and it takes in more per intake stroke but only spins so fast, or wether its a smaller motor that takes in less per intake stroke and spins much higher.
The 750's and 1000's are using less fuel(and smaller pulse widths at the injectors) at the same rpm as the V-max has at its peak. This is because the smaller motors are making less hp at that rpm. Either case, the injectors are almost maxed at EACH BIKES PEAK REV's. The V-max, due to its larger displacement makes it peak hp at a much lower RPM than do the smaller bikes. In either case, the injectors will be at roughly the same duty cycle when each bike is at the same HP(cfm). This will vary slightly due to the more efficient combustion chambers of the newer bikes, but not alot.
When an injector approches its max duty cycle, its staying open almost 100% of the time. Think about that. The intake valve is only open roughtly 30% of the 720deg 4 stroke cycle. Once you are making about 25% of maximum hp, your injectors are firing for longer than the intake valve is open. If your maximum hp is correctly calibrated to 80% duty cycle, your injectors are injecting well over 50% of teh time at a closed valve...
I think i mentioned the same things a couple of times, but i think you may get the gist of what i mean?

hubeerjw said:

I'm just throwing an idea around, but don't most of the in-line 4's have a much higher redline than the VMax. This would mean that the injectors are actually sparying more times to get to that peak HP. Since the VMax can't rev that high, wouldn't it need more fuel per stroke (since it is a 1200 vs a 750 or 1000?)
I wish I knew more about this stuff, and could help you guys out more.
Jeff

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It's all good Jeff! The purpose of this project is for all to learn... by doing. That way if someone does decide to add the EFI to their MAX, and if they have followed the project. They will thoroughly understand the system. Wait till we get to the ECU. We are very fortunate to have Mark and his experience with us.

Don't forget that fuel pressue can be regulated to increase output on any size injector (or reduced). At some point the pressure overcomes the injectors cabilities but I am sure in this case they will handle a nice increase in fuel pressure if needed. An adjustable regulator will help set this up. Bigger engines can turn it up while smaller needs can leave it down.

Sean Morley

What Sean says is true and its a nice way to "fine tune" a paticular setup. Though mild pressure tweaking is usually doable even with stk oem EFI bike fuel pumps, one has to be careful. A fuel pumps VOLUME drops pretty drammatically when the pressure is raised. Though a pump may hit the target pressure, if the volume drops you go lean. Kinda like putting your thumb over the end of a waterhose. The pressure goes up, but your volume goes down. There is more to it than that, but it helps one see the idea. You really have to be mindful of this when running a supercharger/turbo with a boost referenced fuel pressure regulator.
It may be hard to get the specs of oem bike pumps, but most aftermarket pumps have charts that show their pumps working pressures and their corresponding volume outputs.
Those same charts show something else, if you increase the pumps voltage, the volume goes up. Kenne Bell makes a "boost-a-pump" which ups a pumps voltage when there is manifold pressure(in turbo/supercharged applications). Also there is a company that makes one that you can set at a specific voltage all the time.
Just a lil more food for thought.

Ok here's the dilley on the injector digits, different part no's. Searched everywhere and can't find any specs relative to the part no's. Best info yet is from the link posted previously. They are different.

600 AAS A PC09

1000 ABS A 0019

Have you recieved those 750 TB's yet???

Birdoprey said:

Have you recieved those 750 TB's yet???

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No I haven't, do you know when he shipped em?

Any of you guys remember the old VW Type III's? In the early '70's they brought out an injected version (Bosch), and the injectors are old-school tech, which means really ugly, but heaps of flow, and they don't dribble.
Can't remember the total flow rate, but I do know they were THE favourite among turbo Jappa whizzbang cars for race/rally for years. Someone once told me they will support 250RWHP in an old Datsun on methanol, dunno how true that is, but they should still be really cheap, and not to hard to find?

I was thinking about trying o fuel inject my 86 max

It just so happens I have a set of busa throttle bodies laying around, and a megasquirt ecu with a 1 bar map sensor

the hard part is gonna be figuring out how to rack the throttle bodies for the v4
and the fuel rail to them

and a question for birdoprey
are you the same birdofprey from suzukihayabusa.org?
if so hey, nosgsx1300 here