Throttle Bodies VMAX EFI

[RagingMain]

Fabio,

CONGRATS! When can we expect more video???
So, your not gonna use the GSXR1000 injectors i sent?
Is there a reason you are running the smaller injectors and running 50-55lbs of fuel pressure???

It would seem to me that a higher pressure would provide better atomization of the fuel and act like a bigger injector anyways :confused2:
At least that is what we with stock injectors on Diesel trucks, raise the pressure then we dont have to go to bigger ones
(at least not for awhile :clapping

 

[Fabius72]

Thanks Mark...
Luca is running with the injector you have sent to him. The flow rate of them is 270cc/min. We have tried at 3,2bar and they have sprayed 279cc in one minute.
Mine are from a 600cc bike but I think (I would try if I'm right) could be ok, because at more then 9000 rpm, duty cycle of Luca's injector is 77% and AFR in that point of log file is reach.
Soon a video.

 

[Fabius72]

It would seem to me that a higher pressure would provide better atomization of the fuel and act like a bigger injector anyways :confused2:
At least that is what we with stock injectors on Diesel trucks, raise the pressure then we dont have to go to bigger ones
(at least not for awhile :clapping

Hi RagingMain... I think so, but I need to verify.
Next week :eusa_dance:

Fabio.

 

[Fabius72]

If anyone want to see log file, just ask me and I will send.

 

[Birdoprey]

It would seem to me that a higher pressure would provide better atomization of the fuel and act like a bigger injector anyways :confused2:
At least that is what we with stock injectors on Diesel trucks, raise the pressure then we dont have to go to bigger ones
(at least not for awhile :clapping

Though mild pressure tweaking is usually doable even with stk oem EFI bike fuel pumps, one has to be careful. A fuel pumps VOLUME drops pretty drammatically when the pressure is raised. Though a pump may hit the target pressure, if the volume drops you go lean. Kinda like putting your thumb over the end of a waterhose. The pressure goes up, but your volume goes down. There is more to it than that, but it helps one see the idea. You really have to be mindful of this when running a supercharger/turbo with a boost referenced fuel pressure regulator.
It may be hard to get the specs of oem bike pumps, but most aftermarket pumps have charts that show their pumps working pressures and their corresponding volume outputs.
Those same charts show something else, if you increase the pumps voltage, the volume goes up. Kenne Bell makes a "boost-a-pump" which ups a pumps voltage when there is manifold pressure(in turbo/supercharged applications). Also there is a company that makes one that you can set at a specific voltage all the time.
Also, most OEM injectors are designed around a specific working fuel pressure(most are 43psi). Though they work at higher pressures, spray patterns may or may not be optimal.
Just a lil more food for thought

 

[greytsaver]

What's the latest on the efi build? I (and a lot of other people I'm sure) am chomping at the bit to hear anything. Progress? Setbacks? You thought about it at work one day? I am trying to be funny, but anything would shut me up.

 

[TURBOVMAX]

What's the latest on the efi build? I (and a lot of other people I'm sure) am chomping at the bit to hear anything. Progress? Setbacks? You thought about it at work one day? I am trying to be funny, but anything would shut me up.

Yea that work things funny!... it seems like all I do lately. My real job has been pretty hectic. Had planned to send the whole setup down to Mark this week, but got some kinda flu and it kicked my ass... have been down and out all week. Just a few small details on the TB setup need to get done... a days work at most. Feelin better today, so I'll get that done Saturday and ship it all to Texas Monday. I'll post some pics up Sunday.

 

[Fabius72]

Though mild pressure tweaking is usually doable even with stk oem EFI bike fuel pumps, one has to be careful. A fuel pumps VOLUME drops pretty drammatically when the pressure is raised. Though a pump may hit the target pressure, if the volume drops you go lean. Kinda like putting your thumb over the end of a waterhose. The pressure goes up, but your volume goes down. There is more to it than that, but it helps one see the idea. You really have to be mindful of this when running a supercharger/turbo with a boost referenced fuel pressure regulator.
It may be hard to get the specs of oem bike pumps, but most aftermarket pumps have charts that show their pumps working pressures and their corresponding volume outputs.
Those same charts show something else, if you increase the pumps voltage, the volume goes up. Kenne Bell makes a "boost-a-pump" which ups a pumps voltage when there is manifold pressure(in turbo/supercharged applications). Also there is a company that makes one that you can set at a specific voltage all the time.
Also, most OEM injectors are designed around a specific working fuel pressure(most are 43psi). Though they work at higher pressures, spray patterns may or may not be optimal.
Just a lil more food for thought

Hi!
Here again.
We have finished also my V-Max.
I tried flow rate of injectors you have donate to me, and I discovered that GSXR600' injectors are not 240cc/min, but 270cc/min as other GSXR bike.. So, I can't try what I would, but I think you probably are correct about flow rate no good with more fuel pressure.
Instead our fuel pump have high flow rate at 11bar, so we are convinced that they will work well.
I made a video of the first start, but is about 40MB and 6,8MB compressed. How can I do?

 

[naughtyG]

I made a video of the first start, but is about 40MB and 6,8MB compressed. How can I do?

Upload the compressed version to YouTube, then post the link here :clapping:

 

[Birdoprey]

Hi!
Here again.
We have finished also my V-Max.
I tried flow rate of injectors you have donate to me, and I discovered that GSXR600' injectors are not 240cc/min, but 270cc/min as other GSXR bike.. So, I can't try what I would, but I think you probably are correct about flow rate no good with more fuel pressure.
Instead our fuel pump have high flow rate at 11bar, so we are convinced that they will work well.
I made a video of the first start, but is about 40MB and 6,8MB compressed. How can I do?

Well, you just confirmed what i thought was the case. The GSXR600,750,1000 and Busas all share the same injectors(or at least flow rate). At least thats what i recalled from several years ago when i was really messing with those bikes.
Is there a reason you don't wanna run the larger injectors? As long as the injectors can flow the correct fuel at low pulse widths, there are no issues running larger than needed injectors. In fact, that leaves you room to grow. Those injectors will flow enough to support 200rwhp at stk fuel pressure(43psi). Can run a VERY healthy motor and even a nice sized dry shot of nitrous!
Those injectors work well with little bitty 600cc bikes at 500-1000rpm, so they should have no problem getting low enough for the V-max.

 

[Fabius72]

This is the video of the first start-up I made yesterday.

link

There are a lot of things to make better, but after holiday I will finish.

The reason I wanted to mount smaller injectors and increase the fuel pressure, was because I'd like to improve the spray. But you told "Those injectors work well with little bitty 600cc bikes at 500-1000rpm" I didn't know! So they should have no problem :eusa_dance:

I have a LC1 wide band with a 52mm analogue gauge to put near RPM counter. Do you know a nice solution?
Thanks again!

Fabio.

 

[Birdoprey]

Fabio,

If you want better atomization from your injectors, pickup some 12 hole injectors. I've been hunting some for quite a bit. They came in 02 and up Honda RC-51's(RVT1000 and sometimes called a VTR1000). The 00-01's are not 12 hole injectors. The RC-51 is a V-twin, but runs 4 injectors. I've run across complete trottle bodies w/ injectors for as low as $125, but i'm cheap and have been hunting a cheaper set. There is a set on Ebay now that i've been watching(everyone STAY AWAY!!!), we shall see if i can land them. I'm sure other later model bikes run them, but i'm not sure as to which. I just know about the RC-51 injectors.
Best part is that they are "plug-n-play" with the GSXR injector harness. The fit the same injector bungs so you would have no issue running them. They flow a little more than do the GSXR injectors, but offer much better atomization, especially at lower pulse widths.

 

[Fabius72]

Very interesting !!
Now I'm trying gsxr injectors, but I'm watching on web if I can find other RC 51 injectors... I just found a set on ebay, but they are yours

 

[TURBOVMAX]

Hi Fabio,

Everything is looking great! I have a question. What did you end up using for a cam sensor setup? Do you have any pictures? Just curious

Best Regards

 

[Fabius72]

Hi Gary.
Sorry I don't have picture about hall sensor put onto camshaft.
I'm going to holiday but when I come back home, I'll do.
Unfortunately, we have some problem using a cam under the sensor and not a wheel with only one tooth.
Our problem is Lost Sync N.17 that signify Second trigger with some reading problem.
We are asking to James (MS Extra forum), this is a critical solution to read phase and the exactly timing.
Probably we must take off one tooth from 36 non missing tooth to give the correct information to MegaSquirt.
Then Hall sensor will give only engine phase.

See you... at the end of August.

Fabio.

 

[Birdoprey]

Little update...

Got the cam sensor setup from Gary Friday afternoon(Thanks Gary!). Got it all installed(dropped a cam locating dowl down in the motor. Had to fish it out!) and powered up the Haltech E8. There were a few issues right off the batt(Haltech changed some of my settings when i sent my unit to them to fix the coolant temp/air temp issues), but got those ironed out. We now have DIRECT FIRE for Cyl#1 & Cyl#2!!! There is no mark on the flywheel that coinsides with Cyl#3 & 4 so i have no way at the moment to accurately check the spark on these. As of right now though, spark is right on for Cyl#1,2. had to mess with some settings to get Cyl#2 to be right on. Initially it was 4-5deg off.
Still have lots to check before i can say its workable, and even then there may be issues that show up after its actually up and running. But for right now, i'm pleased as punch and it does look promising.
Tell ya what though, Gary sure knows his stuff! Getting the cam sensor setup to work on the first try is IMPRESSIVE! Great job Gary!!!

 

[RagingMain]

Little update...

Got the cam sensor setup from Gary Friday afternoon(Thanks Gary!). Got it all installed(dropped a cam locating dowl down in the motor. Had to fish it out!) and powered up the Haltech E8. There were a few issues right off the batt(Haltech changed some of my settings when i sent my unit to them to fix the coolant temp/air temp issues), but got those ironed out. We now have DIRECT FIRE for Cyl#1 & Cyl#2!!! There is no mark on the flywheel that coinsides with Cyl#3 & 4 so i have no way at the moment to accurately check the spark on these. As of right now though, spark is right on for Cyl#1,2. had to mess with some settings to get Cyl#2 to be right on. Initially it was 4-5deg off.
Still have lots to check before i can say its workable, and even then there may be issues that show up after its actually up and running. But for right now, i'm pleased as punch and it does look promising.
Tell ya what though, Gary sure knows his stuff! Getting the cam sensor setup to work on the first try is IMPRESSIVE! Great job Gary!!!

I am sure you know that Cylinder 3 fires 180 degrees out from #1, and #4 fires 180 out from #2. Wouldnt that be easy enough to mark on the flywheel to check:confused2:

 

[Birdoprey]

Yessir, i do, but i need the marks to be DEAD ON ACCURATE. Now that i get to thinking about it, the OEM marks may not be dead on. I may have to get a degree wheel and check it all. Right now, everything is based off cyl#1, so if its off just a smidge, thats no biggie as all others will be off the same amount. I can easily change the settings in the ECU to compensate once i find if the OEM marks are off any. I may pull the stator cover off and see if i can get it marked as accurate as i can and use it as-is...thanks for stiring my thinking around abit. Helps get the fuzz out!

 

[RagingMain]

Yessir, i do, but i need the marks to be DEAD ON ACCURATE. Now that i get to thinking about it, the OEM marks may not be dead on. I may have to get a degree wheel and check it all. Right now, everything is based off cyl#1, so if its off just a smidge, thats no biggie as all others will be off the same amount. I can easily change the settings in the ECU to compensate once i find if the OEM marks are off any. I may pull the stator cover off and see if i can get it marked as accurate as i can and use it as-is...thanks for stiring my thinking around abit. Helps get the fuzz out!

One of the ways I used to make sure I had the bike together right after I changed the cams was to use a long reach dial indicator and set it between the heads to show me exact TDC. My flywheel was DEAD ON with cylinder #1 and #2.
I checked #3 and #4 to be at TDC using the same method.
I am not sure how much accuracy you need but of course there was a small amount, a very very small amount of play when the dial indicator topped out before it started on its way down. You have to very patient doing this because the engine can pop on you and give you a false reading. Hope this helps. You could instal the dial indicator on #3, get it to TDC and mark the flywheel using the install pointer. Same for #4

 

[Birdoprey]

Heh! I was thinking the very same thing. Only problem is that there is several degrees of crank rotation with the piston right at TDC as the crank throw for that cyl rolls over TDC and changes direction. I've rocked it back and forth just a tad to get an idea of where TDC is. Ultimately, i would want it dead accurate. Otherwise, we might have different timing for each cyl. Though that is easy enough to adjust in the software, we need to know specifically where its at to know how much to adjust it. I might try that method. Can prolly get it within a degree or two either way.