Dreaded "0" ring facts

[mikemax04]

I know what you're saying Rob but I have to make one thing clear. I have NO need to defend Yamaha or any other company. Matter of fact, my last bike was a Honda and it was flawless for 35 years. I, for one, don't care for statements out of the blue that scare the consumer. Hey, if oiling is a problem, then it would be great to know before the engine craps out. I like to go on common sense/facts and not rumors spread by others. I don't care if I'm proven wrong, as long as the truth comes out, that's all I'm looking for.

I was hoping more would join in to voice their opinion/experience so we can all come to a final consensus. Isn't this what forums are for, to get the best information possible? If this forum wants to stand out from the rest, then certain topics/rumors have to be analyzed for factual information. It has nothing to do with one side versus the other side, but what is most probable.

Some might be afraid to ask questions or make statements for fear of being ridiculed by others. That's bunk, chances are that many others are thinking the same thing and would like a clarification. Have the guts to get involved because we are all here to learn and help each other.

 

[shawn kloker]

I already told you what I did.Its working great.Like Sean stated ,most do not ride to the potential of the bike.I hone on mine quit regularly.If it blows up I will rebuild it again.The bottom end that I rebuilt myself is still running strong.

Basically their are 2 choices. Nothing or modify it. It s not really reason for a big debate.I am not trying to pick on you,I just feel its already gone pretty far.

 

[mikemax04]

I already told you what I did.Its working great.Like Sean stated ,most do not ride to the potential of the bike.I hone on mine quit regularly.If it blows up I will rebuild it again.The bottom end that I rebuilt myself is still running strong.

Basically their are 2 choices. Nothing or modify it. It s not really reason for a big debate.I am not trying to pick on you,I just feel its already gone pretty far.

What ever you say Mr. moderator.

 

[clintard]

Mike, chill out.

Shawn, you stated your opinion like what....3 times? We all do respect your opinion, but let someone else comment before this turns into bash fest 2007 and we have another situation like "firefly"

Chill guys were all supposed to be buddies :ummm:

 

[shawn kloker]

Your'e right.I will just ignore this thread.I am the head electrician at work.We have about $30,000,000 worth of machinery.I have to make decisions daily to keep them all running.Not alot of time for debate.

 

[Robbarrie]

I would love to know what every bike shop has repaired to every Max all over the world....then we could analyze the data and come up with some kind of proof that there was or wasn't an oiling issue. The form is way to small to even come close enough to make an informative statement that we could put down on paper to either say "yes or no"

On the other hand, if we did take a vote or do a poll, I'd be almost sure that most would agree that there is a slight possibility but unlikely. Then look at that picture and we'd see that it fits into what Shawn said. He had his apart and seen it with his own eyes. Yes, it was partially blown out - BUT - I think he rides it a hell of allot harder than most....so from that, I suggest to all, if you ride it hard, hard enough to think it may be possible, then at least do yourself a big favor and see it for yourself.

Has it happened - I THINK yes it has, but the real question is...HOW DID THEY RIDE IT ?

Do I think it's just a rumor - NO

Will it ever happen to my bike - I have a better chance of getting hit by lightening ! :cheers:

 

[khuenefeldt]

Rob you got hit by lightning? :coolgleamA:

 

[Robbarrie]

Yea, and I'm still living to tell everyone about it ! :thumbs up: :clapping:

 

[Rusty McNeil]

Just my 2 cents...


If yamaha figured that vmax owners shouldn't run their bikes in the high rpms...why would they have a vboost valve that starts to open at 6K and is fully open at 8K rpms? The bike is advertised as a drag bike...not a scooter

I agree with Mike. Riding a vmax @ 11.5K rpms for 25 laps is stupid and deliberate abuse to the machine. This would be classified as running the machine beyond it's intended use & limitations. :cheers:

I don't think Sean is saying it's a good idea to do this. He is pointing out the real world experience that caused whatever weak links there ae to appear and that in his experience it IS the oiling system.

Destructive testing has been done in amost any industry you can name in this exact same fashion.

 

[Rusty McNeil]

My .02 cents

Everyone I know that has had the pan off including me observed a "partially" displaced o-ring. Not all of these folks had bearing issues so some of these engines were doing just fine with the o-ring displaced.

Riding style could have a lot to do with this obviously.

Everyone I know that has spun a main or rod bearing had the o-ring displaced as well.
That's maybe 5 people total so my experience is limited.

As far as I know it is virtually impossible to destroy a bearing if oil supply is sufficient. Oil systems can and do have a hard time keeping up with rpm's for all kinds of reasons. Bearing wear requiring MORE volume (not pressure) to do the same job is one of them. Excessive high rpm operation can also go past the sysems ability to keep oil supplied faster than it's being slung out of the bearings. I speak from experience with automotive stuff not motorcycles so how much carries over who knows?

Do I believe there is really a problem here?

I dunno

Do I believe the whole manifold/o-ring design is a piece of crap?

Yes;

And anyone who has seen what is typical on a normal engine.would have to agree. Machined mating surfaces and bolted joints are what is "normal" for this type of application. A loose fit o-ring in a easily pressed in connection for an application that could see 80psi on start up is a crappy design in my opinion. The water pump elbow is an example of a well designed o-ring press fit; obviously at a much lower pressure but nonetheless???

 

[Bill Seward]

Interesting thread. Now here's a bit more to think about.
I've got an '85 Max. Bought it new. It just came out of a 2-year "retirement"... Never went more than 3000 miles on an oil change - new filter EVERY time. For the first few years, I ran the bike pretty hard, but as we both got a bit older, my riding style became a bit more sedate. Not to say I NEVER jump on the bike any more - just not as often as I used to. The bike's got 117,000 miles on it as of now, and it still runs smooth and fairly quiet mechanically. Nothing in the motor has ever failed or broke. Uses no oil, and there has never been any sign of metal particles in the oil - since break in.

Pan's never been off, So I have no idea about this o-ring. I was a bit worried about it when I first read the postings, but at this point I figure anything that was gonna happen would have already.

 

[Dreamster66]

I agree.....and I want to add that IF there was an issue.....yamaha ....seems would have recalled many.....not keep building it for 22 + yrs....unless....NO ONE has ever told yamaha about the problem.
I might be wrong......but its a thought.

 

[mikemax04]

Mike, chill out.

Shawn, you stated your opinion like what....3 times? We all do respect your opinion, but let someone else comment before this turns into bash fest 2007 and we have another situation like "firefly"

Chill guys were all supposed to be buddies :ummm:

Hey Clint, on what part of my conversation should I chill on? The so called experts have been spreading this "0" ring problem now for 22 years. You guys want to buy into it, great. Like some on here perhaps, I would like to know once and for all the proof that backs up these unsubstantiated rumors. Remember one thing, whenever people mess with any part of a finely tuned race motor, consequences will happen. 22 years of knocking, and as soon as I throw the subject out there to be discussed, I'm told to button it up because one guy doesn't want to hear any more. You think I'm doing this for me? Hey, lets not rock the boat or disagree with the so called experts on here. No brag if you can back it up but I've forgotten more about engines and mechanics than these so called experts on here will ever know. If people are so knowledgeable, they shouldn't mind a few questions from an old man, cause he's not too old to learn something new. No offense meant towards anybody and nobody should be afraid of the truth, no matter where it leads.

 

[Buster Hymen]

I think I remember someone posting that they had an oil gauge and the reading was lower when the O ring was out. Does anyone else remember that? I think it was on one of the Yahoo lists. I'll dig around and see if I can find it.

 

[mikemax04]

I think I remember someone posting that they had an oil gauge and the reading was lower when the O ring was out. Does anyone else remember that? I think it was on one of the Yahoo lists. I'll dig around and see if I can find it.

Mine reads zero when it's hot and idling. One thing should be considered is that the Max really doesn't have a "genuine" oil pressure take-off so no matter what the gage shows, it's not the actual pressure the engine receives. Even though the gage reads zero, there is pressure throughout the engine, enough for the rpm.

 

[Buster Hymen]

Mine reads zero when it's hot and idling. One thing should be considered is that the Max really doesn't have a "genuine" oil pressure take-off so no matter what the gage shows, it's not the actual pressure the engine receives. Even though the gage reads zero, there is pressure throughout the engine, enough for the rpm.

Zero! Wow... I've heard others say that but others have had higher readings when it is hot and idling. It's true what you say, there is no true oil pressure take off. It would be interesting to see what the true pressure was.

 

[mikemax04]

Perhaps the new Max will have full instrumentation. On the machine we have now, those that went to a gage get somewhat different readings. I'm not sure how much variation there can be with different gages, handlebar mounting or down below, viscosity of oil used, electric sending unit or hose fed. From what I've heard, most get a reading of around 30-40 psi at 65 mph when the engine is warm. This is just me, but I think installing a gage gives the owner something to question and worry about. Another point I'd like to make is the idiot light for low oil. People actually ask how much oil to put into the engine when changing oil. When we check the oil in a car, we try to keep it on the full mark. On the Max, fill the sight glass full while on the main stand. If main stand is missing, have your better half sit on the bike and balance it. How hard is that? The lower the oil level, the sooner the warning light comes on when WOT. This is just common sense but you hear that all the time where seeing the light, gives cause for concern. Most already know this but perhaps there is a member that doesn't.

Pressure by itself really doesn't give you the whole picture Buster. What's important is how much oil is delivered and the diameter of the individual feeder lines is just as important. This is not a coin toss but a very exact measurement. The pressure varies little throughout the engine but the places where more lubricant is needed have bigger orifices.

 

[Rusty McNeil]

Mine runs about 5-7psi at idle fully hot running 20-50, about 3-5 when I'm running 10-30.

A true pressure take-off is going to be any point between the pump discharge and the first "let-down" point.

On any engine this would be anywhere between the pump and the first bearing recieving oil.

On a filtered max the filter could possibly make the pressure appear slightly higher than what the bearings are seeing if it's a restriction point but a clean filter really shouldn't do this and there is also a bypass to send oil around the filter (built-in to virtually every filter) that opens around 40psi.

This to me makes the point at which we usually monitor oil to be a perfectly valid oil pressure monitoring point.

 

[mikemax04]

There is another issue that many don't realize with these engines too and that is the pin end on the rod tends to wear out and add to the already noisy engine. Again, most will never have an issue with it but every single engine we have opened up have had the small end out of tolerance for out of round. This includes so called babied engines with less then 1000 miles on them. Probably 95% of most will never have an issue with them either even though they are looser then they are supposed to be. Of course there are fixes for that too but much more involved then the o-ring swap.

Sean Morley

The out-of-round rods are mostly due to high rpm without enough load on engines with conservative miles. You won't find any new rods that are out. One certified factory mechanic (so he states) for Yamaha, Honda, and Kawasaki (on the Yahoo Tech. Group) claims that he rebuilds engines as a livelihood and takes them full bore right after rebuilt. First of all, none of these bike manufacturers EVER state to go full bore right out of the showroom. Next, does this guy really think he's smarter than the factories? It's this kind of arrogance that goes unchallenged and those bikers that are counting on good information from bike forums are getting totally mislead. Since he claimed Superior knowledge, I asked him to explain the cause and cure of the carb malfunctions on even almost new Maxes. I'm still waiting for him to chime in. My voice isn't meant to be argumentative, but where I disagree with some, others should have another viewpoint to consider. If disagreements in good faith are frowned upon on this forum, then apparently I'm in the wrong place cause I sure don't want to be part of any herd mentality.

 

[khuenefeldt]

Not to bring up a beaten horse...but i put a oil pressure gauge on my vmax. 95 w/ 7400 miles.... I have no idea if the o ring is partially displaced...but i ride it pretty hard.

Regardless, w/ 10w40 at idle when hot i get around 10psi....if i rev up the motor... i max out around 70psi. The oil guage pretty much follows the rpms 1,000rpms - 10 psi ----- 2,000rpms - 20psi. At around 55mph and cruising i see around 45-50psi