Help Support VMAX Forum:
SilentIslander
Member
so....maybe more people than doctors and lawyers can afford these outsourced megaphones once again? :biglaugh:
"We struggle to understand how gross margins would be down year over year with shipments up 16% and manufacturing savings presumably coming through,"
The reason is that the "dealerships" are franchised and Harley Corp requires the dealers to pre-buy their units.
This is a false positive that corp uses to gain the trust of the investors.
However I buy out dealerships and liquidate their inventory. That's my job...I love being a professional biker. The upside is for me I get these smaller shops that cannot keep up with their INSANE bank debts and are forced to sell out or reduce their inventory. The downside is that Harley as a whole gets to manipulate the medical and legal fields ( DRIVING OUR COSTS TO THE DR's & LAWYERS WAY UP ) into thinking their "USA" BUT truly made in China bikes are really worth something. Honestly they aren't.
Ive said it before on this site and Ill say it again....My dad always told me "there's a point on every road where 2 fools meet....One asks the other gives."
I wonder if the Government will bail out Harley like they did every other company that went crapped up these past few years? HMMMMM
The reason is that the "dealerships" are franchised and Harley Corp requires the dealers to pre-buy their units.
This is a false positive that corp uses to gain the trust of the investors.
However I buy out dealerships and liquidate their inventory. That's my job...I love being a professional biker. The upside is for me I get these smaller shops that cannot keep up with their INSANE bank debts and are forced to sell out or reduce their inventory. The downside is that Harley as a whole gets to manipulate the medical and legal fields ( DRIVING OUR COSTS TO THE DR's & LAWYERS WAY UP ) into thinking their "USA" BUT truly made in China bikes are really worth something. Honestly they aren't.
Ive said it before on this site and Ill say it again....My dad always told me "there's a point on every road where 2 fools meet....One asks the other gives."
I wonder if the Government will bail out Harley like they did every other company that went crapped up these past few years? HMMMMM
From what I understood Harley already got in on the bailout on the last round.
RaWarrior
Well-Known Member
Harley's been "bailed out" by the government several times. Remember that big tariff on import bikes over 700cc? Guess who that was aimed to protect...yep, HD was "this close" to closing it's doors....imports simply blew HD out of the water in performance, quality, and price. It's why a bunch of formerly 750cc bikes suddenly became 699's for a couple years.
I also remember hearing that HD rode in on GM's coat-tails in the most recent round of bailout money. Unlike GM, I don't remember hearing announcements from top brass about how their loans have been fully repaid.
How HD still fails to make money at the prices they charge astounds me though. A bike that Honda sells for $6000, deduct 1/3 of the HP, cheapen everything up, stick a "bar and shield" on the tank, and now it's a $10,000 bike. And yet they lose money. Plus, all the "officially licensed and endorsed" merch at dealers must rake in a fortune as well.
Thats where they make their Corporate money. The dealerships are eating shit pies while Willie G. and the fat cats get LOADED on that silly skull logo. Harley is a Chinese driven company they no longer have a say in anything they do as far as design and build. They also made the stupidest mistake in their history by parting ways with Eric Buell, But he is probably better off for it than they will be. AND Its a shame that they cock blocked the other bike companies throughout the years with patenting everything INCLUDING their sound hahaha in order to keep the other companies from developing RELIABLE decent looking and RELIABLE V-Twins. I have owned a few Harley's so Im not poking fingers at people I am one of the people. But if you really look at the market and whats out there for the money, Honda and Yamaha, and Kawasaki have far superior machines for FAR less money than Harley. They just dont have that um how should I put it.....Lie yep lie that fools people into thinking they own a USA bike when they dont. Honda is one of the only bike manufactures that I know of the actually manufactures their bike here in the states. Yeah I know Im going to get hit with the "yeah BUT's" but Every underdog manufacturer INCLUDING Harley has ALL of their components made in China Thailand and Mexico. Assembly in the USA isnt made in the USA. Sorry Harley guys.
Barry barker
Well-Known Member
I hope they pull it out, always have in the past. I like Harleys and have owned a Sportster that was my wifes. It was a good bike, but drive out was almost $11,000. I could have bought almost any other bike for that price. My buddies 76 sportster's starter is made in japan. Harley has been outsourcing parts from foreign countrys for a very long time.
:ummm:My point though, if it were not for Harleys the motorcycle rallies would have low attendence and be pretty boring. I finally went to a rally here in Hot Springs, without the Harleys there would be no rally, Harley owners give us and others an economic boost.
:ummm:My point though, if it were not for Harleys the motorcycle rallies would have low attendence and be pretty boring. I finally went to a rally here in Hot Springs, without the Harleys there would be no rally, Harley owners give us and others an economic boost.
dannymax
Well-Known Member
True story....Yamaha reduced the engine size of the Maxim to 700 cc in '85 & '86 as a result of the whining & complaining. This is a pic of my '85 XJ700X, one of the "tarriff bikes.'
'Course it really didn't offer any protection to HD as these little rockets could run circles around them....my buddy with a 1200cc Sporty couldn't come close....in any category, power, handling, etc.!
I believe this tarriff was deemed illegal sometime in '86.
Attachments
sdt354
Well-Known Member
My father always told me the value of anything was what someone was willing to pay for it! I bought a sportster in the 70's, it had a Boch generator on it too. I had lots of fun on that bike and wish I still had it for nostalgia sake, and in stock condition. The quality has made a leap since then. (Old XLCH trany's were my specialty) How HD can be in trouble is a mystery to me. Everywhere I look I see HD accessories. I wonder if non-owners buy HD accessories too? There IS a lot of competition now, as compared to the 60's and 70's. To survive HD is going to have to become more competitive in price and performance, which I don't think they can be.
Steve-o
Steve-o
[email protected]
Well-Known Member
Seems to me that the japanese manufacturers have been raising prices lately and closing the gap between them and HD.
Here are some recent MSRP $$'s
Yamaha
R1 $14,490
FJR $15,590
Venture $20,190
Stratoliner $17,390
Raider SCL $19,990
Vmax $19,890
Kawasaki
Vulcan Voyager $18,999
Concours $15,899
ZX-14 $14,699
Suzuki
GSXR 1K $13,599
Busa $13,699
M109 $14,099
HD
Fat Boy $16,349
Iron 883 $7,999
1200C $10,299
XR1200X $11,799
Super Glide and Street Bob $12,999
Fat Bob $15,349
Heritage Softail Classic $17,349
V rod muscle $14,999
Road King $17,499
Options are the killer.
All CVO bikes have outrageous prices.
Here are some recent MSRP $$'s
Yamaha
R1 $14,490
FJR $15,590
Venture $20,190
Stratoliner $17,390
Raider SCL $19,990
Vmax $19,890
Kawasaki
Vulcan Voyager $18,999
Concours $15,899
ZX-14 $14,699
Suzuki
GSXR 1K $13,599
Busa $13,699
M109 $14,099
HD
Fat Boy $16,349
Iron 883 $7,999
1200C $10,299
XR1200X $11,799
Super Glide and Street Bob $12,999
Fat Bob $15,349
Heritage Softail Classic $17,349
V rod muscle $14,999
Road King $17,499
Options are the killer.
All CVO bikes have outrageous prices.
RaWarrior
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I've noticed how import bike prices have been sneaking upward as well, Honda's aren't the bargain they used to be, and yet they still are.
A Stratoliner is better built, has more power, and will last longer than it's HD equivalent(whatever combination of "road" "street" "ultra" "glide" and "classic" names their solo tourer), for a price that's still a couple G's less. So it's still less money for a superior product.
I guess the upstart ATK has worked it's way into some HD dealers, as "trailing wheels" for a "real" bike a few years later. They're also "assembled in USA" bikes, to keep that psuedo-American vibe going. They make sure to file off the "hyosung" on the engines first, or put a shield sticker over it, I'm sure.
God, that jaw-less skull logo is friggen EVERYWHERE. Holy crap, it's like the new fashion craze for the Sons of Anarchy (the manly soap opera) fan club.
We actually came across once at a gas station once some guy putting gas in his car (it was a Camry, with HD stickers in the back window), wearing a HD dealer t-shirt. As soon as we pulled in I knew this guy was going to be a tool, and I wasn't disappointed. He made some quick small talk about nice day for a ride, this and that, and he made some "casual" comment about "well, that's a nice bike, though it can't really compete with a HOG, yaknowwhaddimean?". I played along. Yeah, I've only gotten this box up to 145, my buddy with a Sportster said his is good for 160, easy. "Oh yeah, I know, those sportys can fly, I'm looking to pick up a new XR". So this douch-monger didn't even own one yet, and he's already talking smack about how "fast" it is. Be careful kids, that Kool-Aid they serve at dealers is powerful stuff.
A Stratoliner is better built, has more power, and will last longer than it's HD equivalent(whatever combination of "road" "street" "ultra" "glide" and "classic" names their solo tourer), for a price that's still a couple G's less. So it's still less money for a superior product.
I guess the upstart ATK has worked it's way into some HD dealers, as "trailing wheels" for a "real" bike a few years later. They're also "assembled in USA" bikes, to keep that psuedo-American vibe going. They make sure to file off the "hyosung" on the engines first, or put a shield sticker over it, I'm sure.
God, that jaw-less skull logo is friggen EVERYWHERE. Holy crap, it's like the new fashion craze for the Sons of Anarchy (the manly soap opera) fan club.
We actually came across once at a gas station once some guy putting gas in his car (it was a Camry, with HD stickers in the back window), wearing a HD dealer t-shirt. As soon as we pulled in I knew this guy was going to be a tool, and I wasn't disappointed. He made some quick small talk about nice day for a ride, this and that, and he made some "casual" comment about "well, that's a nice bike, though it can't really compete with a HOG, yaknowwhaddimean?". I played along. Yeah, I've only gotten this box up to 145, my buddy with a Sportster said his is good for 160, easy. "Oh yeah, I know, those sportys can fly, I'm looking to pick up a new XR". So this douch-monger didn't even own one yet, and he's already talking smack about how "fast" it is. Be careful kids, that Kool-Aid they serve at dealers is powerful stuff.
"Options are the killer."
This is true... I have also seen and am not really a fan of the universal price raise from all the manufacturers. But if you spend 19,xxx on a V-Max you dont have to sign the paper then get a mortgage on youre house to make it a worthy machine. It is an out of the box ready to go bike, In 05 I bought a 96" fuel injected Dyana Wide Glide New, I paid 8500 n change for it. AFTER the Cams, Head work, Pipes, Seat, Wheel set, and other "upgrades" I was into that bike for over 13K and it still couldnt be what my stock 85 Max is. I lost that bike in my divorce my ex's BF rides it every day now. GRRR:bang head: but whatever I got out of a money pit on that one. Plus the insurance on any Harley is much higher than other makes.
maxcruiser
Well-Known Member
Personally, I love HD motor company. I used to build/sell custom HDs back about 20 or so years ago. The last bike I sold, I took the profits off it and bought HD stock with it. In 2008, I sold the stock and pocketted 19X my original money.
Harley Davidson is a corporation like any other, they are there to make money. Problem with HD and many other US/Canadian corporations is that they got very greedy and complacent to their customers needs.
For Harley, they have relied on nostalgia to sell product rather than innovation and made very little change to their product line. The last major new product was the v-rod, but Ultras, Fatboy, etc... have remained pretty much the same.
Are japanese cruiser bikes much better quality than a Harley, I don't think so. I am on another Yamaha Cruiser forum and they are thread after thread of issues with these bikes. As far as I'm concerned, the japanese manufacturers have gone backwards in design and quality in the cruiser market with aircooled v-twin, pushrod engines, etc...
I can go on and on, but time for me to get off my soapbox. I wish Harley well - I hope they are able to turn it around - but only time will tell.
Mike
Harley Davidson is a corporation like any other, they are there to make money. Problem with HD and many other US/Canadian corporations is that they got very greedy and complacent to their customers needs.
For Harley, they have relied on nostalgia to sell product rather than innovation and made very little change to their product line. The last major new product was the v-rod, but Ultras, Fatboy, etc... have remained pretty much the same.
Are japanese cruiser bikes much better quality than a Harley, I don't think so. I am on another Yamaha Cruiser forum and they are thread after thread of issues with these bikes. As far as I'm concerned, the japanese manufacturers have gone backwards in design and quality in the cruiser market with aircooled v-twin, pushrod engines, etc...
I can go on and on, but time for me to get off my soapbox. I wish Harley well - I hope they are able to turn it around - but only time will tell.
Mike
Last edited:
I am in agreement with MAXCRUISER in that I wouldn't want to see a company go down and I do hope they can pull it out with out me funding the bail out again and again.
I am in a club and most of the people in my club do ride Harley's... not all of them but most...Im the only one in my club in the state that I know of that rides a VMAX weird...
Anyway the nostalgia will only get one so far. After that performance and innovation take precedence Harley needs the latter to aid the former. They haven't had an innovative bike that wasn't a remake of every other bike since they got Eric Buell on board with his bikes and then Porche to design the VROD..
Maybe we should write ol Willie a letter but I don't think he would listen.
I am in a club and most of the people in my club do ride Harley's... not all of them but most...Im the only one in my club in the state that I know of that rides a VMAX weird...
Anyway the nostalgia will only get one so far. After that performance and innovation take precedence Harley needs the latter to aid the former. They haven't had an innovative bike that wasn't a remake of every other bike since they got Eric Buell on board with his bikes and then Porche to design the VROD..
Maybe we should write ol Willie a letter but I don't think he would listen.
I've owned 6 Harley's over the years. I've bought my last from them. Only reason I don't sell my 1200 Sportster is because I'd loose my butt on it.... And at 60 mpg highway with a 4.5 gallon tank, it still has a purpose.
Geez guys, the stock only dropped 10% which is still almost $5.00 per share over its 52 week low and 3x times what it was trading at during the 2008 crisis, and these posts sound like H-D is in eminent danger of bankruptcy. Actually the price has made it an attractive buy. Plenty of wannabes will still pay top dollar for their t-shirts!
I'm actually waiting for H-D to finally stop selling bikes, and just become an apparel and lifestyle company, which it pretty much already is. Visited the H-D dealership in Lake Ozark MO. Huge dealership, very nice, but not ONE bike on the showroom, only clothes and accessories!
I'm actually waiting for H-D to finally stop selling bikes, and just become an apparel and lifestyle company, which it pretty much already is. Visited the H-D dealership in Lake Ozark MO. Huge dealership, very nice, but not ONE bike on the showroom, only clothes and accessories!
deekjx
Well-Known Member
They tried and failed. Not sure if you recall them attempting to patent the sound of a V-Twin Engine. They had to give up due to the lawsuits not allowing them to get very far.
RaWarrior
Well-Known Member
There's a H-D "boutique" (it actually says that on the sign) in Lake Placid. I guess it's an offshoot of some local dealer. It's a moderately large store, stocked literally to the ceilings with harley merch. It's like the wal-mart housewares section, but everything is black and orange and has flames on it.
I won't deny Yamaha's definitely dropped the ball here and there, but at least they toss up in the pursuit of something new, improved, or different. Harley trudges along with the same outdated mediocre-at-best product year after year after year after year. Take the fenders from this one, the gas tank from that one, slap on saddlebags from a touring and BAM! you've got a "brand new" model.
I won't deny Yamaha's definitely dropped the ball here and there, but at least they toss up in the pursuit of something new, improved, or different. Harley trudges along with the same outdated mediocre-at-best product year after year after year after year. Take the fenders from this one, the gas tank from that one, slap on saddlebags from a touring and BAM! you've got a "brand new" model.
I dont have a problem with Harleys there not my favorite but not a bad bike. As far as I am concerned the Metric dealers were stupid for not pushing there logos more like Harley did.
Similar threads
