Give up and die or Fight

[RagingMain]

Yeah so here goes my story.

This last Christmas my kids did not want to come out and see me. The long and short of it, my ex married my best friend while I was in the Navy and they moved to the east coast. Remember there is always three sides to every story, mine, hers and somewhere in the middle lies the truth.

Anyways here is my delima. Since they are so far away it hard to just stop by and say hi. Little hard to make it to the band recitals or play productions. I call every week and we discuss life, school, girl friends or boy friends. How they are adjusting to their new life. I have always paid my child support on time. They are pretty much spoiled in the way of material things and really just look at me as a check book.

When I found out they didnt want to come out, I told my ex I was going to get a lawyer and enforce the visitation arrangement set out by the court.
Her response to me was

"Pretty pathetic how selfish you are. You care so much about yourself you will screw your children over in the process. Has always been that way. Since they were babies! They were given the option to go with you. They were told in advance that mikaila wasn't coming. THEY CHOSE not to call you and go with you. I gave them the opportunity to go with you. I warned them also how you would get mad. You proved me right. Thank you. You are so caught up in your self. As usual. You are showing your children by your actions ...by this email... just how much you don't care about THEM just what you want. But thats ok... I have told you before I am done trying to help you keep a good relationship with them. It's all on you. Keep going... "

So what should I do???? She has a point, I dont want to force my kids to come see me against their will, what kind of visit would that be. At the same time fathers have equal rights under the law. This is how I feel about it. My father didnt care enough about me to fight for me. I dont have a relationship with him now and dont even know if he is alive. If I just let my children do what they want they would rather not come out or have me come out and the distance and time will just further the estrangement that is already taking place. Here is my response to my 17 year old daughter who emailed me

"A father has the right to see his children.

I do understand exactly what you are saying but what you and your mother have failed to understand is that there are two sides to everything. IT IS JUST NOT ABOUT WHAT YOU WANT, OR ABOUT WHAT I WANT. We have to learn to make sacrifices.

I want to see my kids, am I wrong for wanting to spend time with you guys??? It just sucks that you are all so far away. Tell me what I am to do about that??? I would move out there tomorrow if that is what it meant!!!!

In order to keep paying the child support I need the job I have now, you know the job in Mass didnt work out so well. So please tell me what I am to do??? Just let you all sit out there and not come see me because that is what YOU want. Doesnt what I want factor into this at all??? How are we supposed to come to an agreement on this?

I do miss you and I do love you!!!!! What am I supposed to do??? Does having a good relationship with you and your siblings mean all we do is talk on the phone and I send you presents and money when you all ask???

When Amanda and Austin were out here for the summer they didnt appear to be resenting the trip. Maybe appearances are deceiving. I dont know. They had geniune smiles and I miss their laughter.

I want to be a part of your life and theirs. I just dont know what to do. Since this affects you and them the most tell me what I should do. Do you want me to stop being a part of your life? I know it is only a small part.

Parents are supposed to share equal time with their kids. I am very happy you have a wonderfull mom who takes care of you. I am very thankful you guys are growing up well. I am very proud of the fine young people you are turing out to be. I brag about you guys all the time.

I am wondering something. What would you rather have... A father who doesnt care enough about you to even want to spend time with you or one who is desiring of a relationship with his kids??? Remember this is about both parites, you and I. Just not one or the other.

I am also very happy you decided to respond. To me that shows you care. Not necessarily about me but about your brother and sister.

I am serious in what I am asking. WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE ME DO???"

Sorry for such a long post. It has been therapuetic to just write this. I know I will get a lot of answers on this. Tell me what you would do.
Fight for equal rights or just as my daughter put it.

"I want you to let the kids do what they want.
if it means all they do is call u and u decide to send them gifts u should be grateful for that.
but YOU don't decide how THEY have a relationship with you. That's their choice. you can't force it on them through the law.
if they don't want it ur just wasting money on a lawyer.

Grow up."

To me that statement just means give up and Die.
Thanks brothers for listening
God Bless you all.

 

[EvilD]

They are your kids. Never give up on them. My ex says shit like that all the time, i think it's programed into them. I live 10 minutes away from my kids, even though it pains me every single day to live inthe God aweful state. I can move, but I love them and like beign with them as much as possible. Never give up, you'll die regretting it.

 

[maleko89]

+1, don't listen to your ex and fight for what you want. I wouldn't take it too personally when your kids don't want to visit. They are young and I'm sure your ex is putting stuff into their ears. Hang in there buddy.

 

[kevman]

I was in a similar situation,it is very hard to even explain all the details but I had a long range relationship with my son for a long time .Yearly visits, lots of phone calls,presents and paid my support every month for years with no real hassles. Until I realised I may have been his biological father but I'm not the one he thinks of as his Dad.This is one small part of a saga .Iwould rather keep the relationship than try to force the issue .Your children have their own issues and until they are adults and can look at the situations themselves with hindsight and maturity .They are being influenced ,rightly or wrongly,by factors you have no control over and as you said there are 3 sides to every story.Actually everybody has their own interpretation and they are all different,adult to adult ,child to child .I have rewritten and rethought all this and more and seriously it is all up to you to keep your children happy and sometimes sacrifices have to be made.I know this hasn't helped :bang head:

 

[ssnsltd]

I watched this played our many times in the 26 years I was in the service, so I will jump in FWIW.

wow- Pretty sorry answer on your X's part. though considering how it stared it is not all that surprising, and was pretty typical of what we saw over and over on the Army side. This whole thing is bad for all.

anyway- A court order is exactly that, she has to keep her end for it to be enforced. As you say, you could move and see what happens. Not sure the ages of your kids, so it is a bit difficult to gauge just how much the mother/ step-father is influencing the decision vs. their actual feelings. That being said, I premise this on them being old enough to make there own- unbiased- decisions: if so, IMO the sad truth of it is you should put the ball in their court and let it ride. Which also includes dropping support if your X isn't willing to enforce her end of the court ruling. they apparently don't want or need it. Put the money in an annuity for college or in an IRA in their name.

I am not saying you should give up, but if it is their choice WTF can you do? forcing them to come to you will likely not help, moving maybe.

As to why say this- on a more personal note to this:
My nieces dad was an out-right POS, never paid any child support, never called, never even tried to get involved. My sister did not (as best I can tell) try to get in the way of any relationship, she encoureaged it. In the end, I sent her to college. Her "father" lived in the same town she went to school in, he had her over to dinner one (1) time in four years. I know she would love to have him in her life, but she knows he doesn't care. too bad your kids can't see that you do.

I despised my own Father by the time I first enlisted in the Army. Some of that was do to influence from my mother and relatives "educating" me about him. 3 years later when I got out to go to school, I got the chance to re-meet him. We have been best friends for the last 23 years.

 

[richwrench]

Hang in there Rage Man - I know it hurts, but it's certainly not " give up & die". Tell your kids you love them every chance you get & give it some time. They'll come around some day as long as you keep in touch & remind them you love them. We're all pullin for you Bro, stay tough.

 

[Thevmaxrider]

I hear ya loud and clear brother!! I am going through almost the same thing right now with my 2 daughters who live 3k miles away from me. All the advice I can give is keep close contact, but don't force the issue. If you force the kids they will resent it. What I did when my daughters got older, one is 18 and the other 16, is respect their lives because they now have them and put the ball in their court. Ask the kids when THEY would like to come out to see you. This involves them in the decision making and will show them that you value their opinion. Bring them around at a reasonable pace, kind of like turning an aircraft carrier, one degree at a time my friend. You will get results.

 

[coffee_brake]

I hear ya loud and clear brother!! I am going through almost the same thing right now with my 2 daughters who live 3k miles away from me. All the advice I can give is keep close contact, but don't force the issue. If you force the kids they will resent it. What I did when my daughters got older, one is 18 and the other 16, is respect their lives because they now have them and put the ball in their court. Ask the kids when THEY would like to come out to see you. This involves them in the decision making and will show them that you value their opinion. Bring them around at a reasonable pace, kind of like turning an aircraft carrier, one degree at a time my friend. You will get results.

I think Jim has a good suggestion. No divorces and no kids for me, but I *do*remember being 17 and I have to ask...

Why are you asking your 17-year-old daughter what you should do? You're the adult here. I really believe the last thing you should do is pander to their demands or wishes, even what they wish about coming to see you. Kids often can't make rational decisions unless presented with valid, rounded viewpoints and the ex isn't offering that. So, I think, you need to use the visitation setup as the opportunity it was meant to be for your kids to know you. Doing something in life that you don't like, but you do it anyway because the results are worth it, is how livings are made, how relationships are kept, how children learn discipline and self-respect.

Yeah, yeah, you know all that, you're a grown man making his own way. I'm just kindly and respectfully reminding you that kids don't generally make adult decisions about their lives--that's largely on you....

 

[RagingMain]

I think Jim has a good suggestion. No divorces and no kids for me, but I *do*remember being 17 and I have to ask...

Why are you asking your 17-year-old daughter what you should do? You're the adult here. I really believe the last thing you should do is pander to their demands or wishes, even what they wish about coming to see you. Kids often can't make rational decisions unless presented with valid, rounded viewpoints and the ex isn't offering that. So, I think, you need to use the visitation setup as the opportunity it was meant to be for your kids to know you. Doing something in life that you don't like, but you do it anyway because the results are worth it, is how livings are made, how relationships are kept, how children learn discipline and self-respect.

Yeah, yeah, you know all that, you're a grown man making his own way. I'm just kindly and respectfully reminding you that kids don't generally make adult decisions about their lives--that's largely on you....

I was asking her because she "thinks" she has all the answers as most 17 year olds do. I was putting the ball in her court to see what she would say. Her response was typical and expected.

Thank you for all of your posts and suggestions. They are all valid and appreciated.

Guess I have a lot to wrestle with and it helps knowing I have a brotherhood to turn to even if it is just to vent.
Cheers

 

[hubeerjw]

Sorry to hear about the troubles RM. I can't really give you any advice that means anything, but I have a good buddy going through a similar situation, but they are both close by - 50 miles apart. The mother is around the kids most of the time and can basically "brain wash" them into thinking what she wants them too. They are pretty young, and there isn't much my buddy can do. Just "kill em with kindness" not just the kids, but the mom too. It has to be the hardest thing, to be nice to someone you may hate, but I do believe in karma, and things will work out for you. I guess I am saying fight, but fight nice (if that is possible). Your kids will respect you and will come to learn the truths about you and their mother. Take care and let us know if we can do anything for ya!

Jeff

 

[gunrunner]

Sorry to hear about your tough spot , what you have to take on board is they are only hearing her side of the story and not both sides .
Have you thort about moving closer to them for their sakes , no one is perfect we have all made mistakes you could tell her that by saying that you now want to make it up to them . You will always be their father even if anyone else is in the picture .
Now, i will tell you something about myself . I have a partner she has 2 young boys from a previous marriage and she has had a rough time from what the father had put them through from what i can gather he was always on the piss or pissed had no time for her or the boys and then there was the violence not at them but it might as well be . Like on a xmas morning 2 young boys opening presents laughing making lots of noise and dad who was drunk started yelling and screaming and then smashed up their toys as an example . Years later the mother with no money wasnt allowed to work had had enough and had him removed . Now the mother who never ever wanted a relationship and myself started going out and the boys didnt know what to think we both took this very slowly for there sakes , even when it came to me having a beer 1 night they both got really scared saying are you gonna get angry at us now , so i explained that you can have a drink without getting angry but that is what happens if you have to much . Now years later we are still together but we still havent moved in yet my point is the father doesnt pay for the boys but they still do miss them . The mother doesnt want them to go visit as for fear of the yelling , drinking and the violence. But the boys say to this but we are used to it now , so who is the adult then . I can see this story from the other side not saying that this guy is a bad dad we all make mistakes maybe it time you make it right start spending time with them . As in my case the boys father hates me as he thinks that im here to take over from him , the fact is he will always be their dad he is the 1 that buys them all the expensive gifts , i cant and wont compete with that but i am the one that takes them to the beach, fishing and teaches them to fix their bikes . End of the day the boys love me and i love them and will do anything for all of them but they will always have their dad even if their mum doesnt look at it like that or want it like that with all the broken promises year after year .
All i can say is hang in their you have 2 wonderful kids that will some day need you, try and make things right .:bang head::ummm::confused2::clapping:unk:

 

[Noxx72]

Rough go mate, I know many of us have been through similar times.

I can't tell you what to do, but don't do anything rashly. I find in these tough emotional binds a little rellief in faith, but again that's something for every man to say for himself.

Guess I don't have much to say after all, just wanted to say that I feel for ya. Hang in there.

 

[naughtyG]

RM, don't give up, or die. Don't worry so much about your 'rights'. In the end it's about your children knowing that they have a dad who loves and cares for them, whatever does or does not happen. So don't give up - I know it hurts when they say they're not bothered seeing you, but if it's really their choice you gotta respect that. In the long run, as long as you're there when they need you it's all good, and they will grow up knowing they have a dad who cares for and respects them.

I lost my daughter when she was not quite 5. Her mum decided to move to the other side if England at the time, but as all my work was in London I could not follow. I spend 7-8 years driving hours every other weekend so I could go see her, just for a day or sometime take her overnight to camp or a B&B. It near destroyed me not to be able to be there for her anymore when she cried, was sick or generally needed a hand to hold. But I feel I did what I could to make sure she knew I was still there and loving her as much as ever. I never missed a maintenance payment either. I used to have her every other xmas, but as she grew up she started not being too bothered anymore and would rather stay home to be able to see all her friends. She's turning 17 at the end of march, and she still sometimes calls or emails to say she's really sad and misses me, but now I'm here in FL and she's still there in the UK so things got a bit harder over the last couple of years.

I still hope she'll decide to move in with me one day before she moves on to her own life so we can at least try to make up for the lost years, and every day she gets older it becomes a bit more unlikely.

All the same, hang in there, keep in touch with them, put on a brave face, but unless they are being seriously abused or brainwashed, keep the courts out of it as they will only bring more stress and sorrow into the relationship. Remember that with kids, your only god-given right is to love them and do your best for them, but you can't ever expect anything in return.

 

[COP RUNNER]

i cant even comment without tearing-up , i cant imagine being away from my 5 year old son , i miss him when i go for a motorcycle ride ! Theres some sad stories here , & some of my good friends have gone through this . Some women are spitefull-vengefull & lie to make there x's look bad & its not good for anyone involved ! I'm not saying guys dont do it also , people used to tell me "that i dont no what love is untill you have a child " & back in the day , i knew everthing & was like , whatever , but now i no they are 100% right !!!!! The only right thing to do is what you , yourself & knowone else , feels in your heart is the right thing to do ! That makes it right ! Out of the love for your children !

 

[vmaxride06]

Hang in there Bro, I have read your post 10x's already. I am truly sorry for your pain. I am not in your situation, nor have I ever been. I am just a parent trying to do the right things, there is no fucking manual, trust me I have looked. I used to think my parents were whacked, not anymore, guess its my turn to be the one that does not understand. The only advise I can give you is to be strong, and give them time to come around, but do not give up, always stay in contact and when you can work it out, go see them.
Yeah, sounds easy, it wont be, shit bro just reaching out and venting shows you care enough to want to make the right decision.I hope you find your way and it works out for everyone in do time.

Chris

 

[gunrunner]

I would hate to say this but when things get tough , we all go out and got a VMAX unk:

 

[fasterlapdunn]

Communicate, communicate, communicate Rage! I can repeat it again if you would like. I have been through this as a child with my mother (weird its usually the father). My nephew goes through this with his father, my brother-in law goes through this with his two sons. I have military friends who are going through this. I have seen a ton of different sides to this type of dilemma. Communication is key. I think your communication with your Daughter was great. Don't let the kids abuse you at the same time either. Guilt is a very useful tool especially in the hands of a child. Their minds are full of you not being there and their mother whispering in their ear or maybe just her venting comments. Either way their mind is no where near wrapped around the situation. It is up to you to communicate with them. Tell them everything about you, feelings, good times, bad times, regrets, etc etc ...everything! They want to know. Don't bad mouth their mother at all. Don't even be condescending if she comes up in conversation. If she won't cooperate with you then she can cooperate with your lawyer. She is not important, no focus needs to go to her...let the lawyer handle it. That creates more stress on them...not fair to them. So fight for that visitation. They will remember your fight for them when they get older. They will respect it and respect you for it. You are not allowed to give up so hang in there.

 

[lankeeyankee]

Wow Fargo
I wish I could give you advice from a parents view. Unfortuntently I have no children. I can only go by how I am feeling currently after reading your post.
Its either one of 2 things.
A) The Mom is feeding them shit and talking bad about you to them.
B) They are angry at you for something in the past. Now this could be a misunderstanding or it could be something legit, only you know the truth.
I have spoken with you a few times but I have never met you personally so I cant say niether or decide.
If I were you, I would plan a trip out to the east coast where they live around a time where they are off from school. I would try and arrange something simple with them to where they dont feel trapped with a lengthly meet of hours on end, such as Lets meet for lunch..
I know deep down in side your kids want to regain a relationship with you, but there is something making them put up there wall of protection which is normal in all of us to protect our feelings. The key now is to get them to regain trust back in you and this is going to be in small steps. Pressuring them will only make them more distant. Take it easy and actions speak louder then words in time... Gifts dont mean a thing so dont feel you need to buy them 1000.00's of dollars worth of gifts, they are needing to find the person you really are and to build trust back in you.
I may be way off base on this but I am going by what you wrote. P.S. your x sounds like a real bitch and control freak that has started a new life and is really angry at you also.
Learn and never get married, no matter how good a bitch seems most likely they are going to change once you title them in your name. Lease dont ever buy LOL
Good luck buddy.

 

[diggerzmound]

I have seen and been involved in similar issues.

If you have visitation and the time and money, go see them.. Nothing says you care like showing up at their place and taking them out for the weekend and having them show you their place..

 

[Lew L]

Hang in there RM,
My two cents is: Stop talking with your ex, she is a very bitter lady and you will never say anything that can make her happy. Never give up on your kids!!! As others have said, communicate with them often. I had to fight to get "joint physical and legal" custody of my son and I'm really glad I did. It's been about 25 yrs since the Big D and he and I have a GREAT relationship.

Good luck,
Lew