Brake upgrades

[firefly]

Max brakes are seriously lacking stopping power, though Yamaha upgraded from two pot front brake calipers < 1993 to 4 pot front calipers they are still inferior!
here are some cheap and basic upgrades that make a great difference:

1- If you have a new bike 05-07 please do your self a favor and replace the front and rear brake pads with EBC HH pads, this saves the rotors big time and offer a much better braking power.

2- SS lines, these are a MUST!, we have many options here, galfer and others, they all work very well and improve front brakes performance significantly! ( beware of brake fluid spills on ANY surface of the bike)
If a spill happen wipe immediately with water & rag, I spilled some on the front wheel that resulted in permanent discoloration, on paint it eats it.
I would cover the front fender, Rt scoop, lower 3rd of the front wheel & tire with aluminum foil from a 99 cent store. use a high quality DOT 4 brake fluid, DOT5 is silicon based and is not compatible with rubber components of max brake system . even if you decide to flush the system throughly and put DOT 5 this will not give any difference in braking power.

While you're at it replace the bleeder screws with speed bleeder ones so next time you change the brake fluid the process is much easier and cleaner, I still recommend investing in a mity vac,it is a must after a complete draining of fluid even if you installed speed bleeders, It draws the new fluid from the master through the lines.
Using 3 line or 2 line SS lines is your choice, I like the stock 3 line but many that have the 2 line are very satisfied with them a little cheaper.

3- SS for the clutch is also a winner, it gives a more positive feel to clutch engagement, you will need to use the mity vac in this project even if you installed speed bleeders which I highly recommend for the clutch slave, ( It makes bleeding the clutch and replacing the fluid almost a pleasure to do.)

4- Calipers? if you have the old two pot front calipers you definitely need to replace them with R1 or better, its your life! for bikes with 4 pot calipers other mods like FJR master will give you the two finger braking power! get the 2003 FJR master because the 04 do not have a threaded hole for the mirrors. University Motors Gary McCoy has them complete with brake switch for ~150.00, want to go all the way and also do the R1 calipers go for it! its a direct fit with no adapter needed but will not replace the need for a smaller diameter piston master cylinder, stock master is 16mm the FJR is 14mm, it gives more pressure in the lines.
R1 calipers use smaller pads than stock! I would imagine less brake pad surface = less braking power, I still have my stock front calipers with FJR master an feel this combo is great and gives a sure two finger braking power and can even cause a stoppie if not careful.

Pre 93 bikes will need a caliper adapter to fit any decent 4 or 6 pot calipers, Its well worth the money and trouble, it is your life!

5- Rotors: stock rotors are great, I have a rear wave galfer rotor and don't like it , less metal = less braking power, I wouldn't use them for the front tho they do look nice.

6- Tires: smaller diameter front tires also improve braking power, just by going from stock size 110/90X18 to a 110/80X18 makes a +ve difference in front brake power, 17 inch tires also drastically increase stopping power but will make the front dive if you don't have stiffer springs.

7- Proper tire inflation 40 psi with Metzler 880 is optimum, handling and braking is greatly affected by tire pressure.

I hope that helps.

 

[mikemax04]

If you have more money than needed and plenty of idle time, go for the suggestion below. My brakes are stock '04 and can lock them up at will. To me, that's too much braking power already. Stainless lines are more bling than improvement unless there is a bulge in your stock lines every time you apply the brakes (like blowing up a balloon). They in no way improve braking power.

The diameter of the front tire has very little effect on braking. More important is the tire compound and the foot print. Radials have a bigger foot print. Smaller diameter tires lower the bike in front a little, thus shifting a bit more weight forward when braking. If you go to 17" rims, do it for the radial tire and not better braking. Changing the attitude of the bike depends on what you want most. Lowering the front, puts more weight on the front tire when braking but takes away from the rear traction

There are such things as CAN DO and then there are those called MUST DO. There are many can do changes on the Max but the only must do's are proper maintenance and the comfort of the rider. An uncomfortable bike is no fun and can even be hazardous. Just another way of looking at this brake/tire business.

 

[firefly]

Everyone who has done the SS lines know what effect they have, I changed my stock lines while they were in great shape @ 5K and it made a huge difference.
I wish that people who have NOT done a mod then comment on it to stay quiet and stop this childish bickering.

How can a person comment on something they never tried? or is it just to post more???
If you haven't tried 17 inch tires how can you comment on them????
if you haven't installed an FJR master how would you know its effect???

 

[Lew L]

When I up graded to SS lines on my ZX-11 the effect was a definate improvement in braking feel and power. I hope to get them for my Max as one ofthe winter upgrades. A good trickel down from the racing circuit -- years ago. Can't go wrong with EBC HH pads either.

Please note:
I'm not taking sides here. On the other site I frequent www.bigbikeworld.com this kind of sillyness dosen't occure as the offending parties were warned and then banished. But they were much worse than this little tiff.
Lew

 

[Dreamster66]

Everyone who has done the SS lines know what effect they have, I changed my stock lines while they were in great shape @ 5K and it made a huge difference.
I wish that people who have NOT done a mod then comment on it to stay quiet and stop this childish bickering.

How can a person comment on something they never tried? or is it just to post more???
If you haven't tried 17 inch tires how can you comment on them????
if you haven't installed an FJR master how would you know its effect???

OK.....I REALLY have to say this..... this is really annoying to see on here...... I'm NOT taking sides here, so don't go all balistic on me (and I'm NOT a pro neither.... never claimed to be....) but as I observe this group there seems to be one consistency...... and I will quote....

from firefly-

"I wish that people who have NOT done a mod then comment on it to stay quiet and stop this childish bickering.

How can a person comment on something they never tried? or is it just to post more??? "

To firefly..... HOW can you say Mikes just posting to post more????
You sir, have posted FAR more than he.....FACT! PERIOD!
I appreciate ALL posts when help is needed or ideas suggested but I feel YOU are instigating Mike.
You gave your thought....Mike gave his.... no need for you to comment like that.
You can take digs at me all you like....I'm not taking sides... as I said, just stating facts!
WE......ALL OF US......are a group UNLIKE the yahoo groups.
So.....STOP IT!
Black ball me.... label me as a blacksheep.....whatever.
I just had to get that off my chest!
WHEW!
now on with the show......

 

[mikemax04]

When I up graded to SS lines on my ZX-11 the effect was a definate improvement in braking feel and power. I hope to get them for my Max as one ofthe winter upgrades. A good trickel down from the racing circuit -- years ago. Can't go wrong with EBC HH pads either.

Please note:
I'm not taking sides here. On the other site I frequent www.bigbikeworld.com this kind of sillyness dosen't occure as the offending parties were warned and then banished. But they were much worse than this little tiff.
Lew

Lets debate the SS lines first. Just what is it about the lines that make them so much better? I'm not talking about what others think. There has to be a reason in black and white to justify that expenditure. Can firefly enlighten us why they are so superior and worth the expense? There is no bickering going on, on my part anyway. There are always two sides to every upgrade or mod and I'm willing to show that what many think are must have mods, are not really necessary at all or contribute little and to some, not worth the expense. I'm sure there are those that want to make improvements no matter the cost or the benefit. I'm suggesting to those that don't have money to burn and are not modaholics, that some mods are blown way out of proportion and don't justify the expenditure. Instead of hearing that your life depends on some must do mods, there should also be a voice for those that can think for themselves and can decide by hearing facts and not going by someone else's seat of the pants feel.
There need to be no hostility in these exchanges, just dealing with reality. Anybody can chime in, ask questions, make statements and above all, care about what goes on in this forum and not just be negative or hide in the background. You're up firefly.

 

[Dreamster66]

Re: Brake upgrades O.T.

Sorry....gotta do this cause I'm a cowboys fan....YAAAAHHH.....COWBOYS JUST WON!
ROCK ON ROMO! (Jessica Simpson.....sigh....lucky guy!)

 

[mikemax04]

Re: Brake upgrades O.T.

Sorry....gotta do this cause I'm a cowboys fan....YAAAAHHH.....COWBOYS JUST WON!
ROCK ON ROMO! (Jessica Simpson.....sigh....lucky guy!)

Dreamster, not a problem voicing your opinion and glad you have the guts to speak up. I served in the armed forces so we (meaning all of us) can speak without fear of reprisal from anyone. I wish more would take advantage of our freedom of speech and let their thoughts be known. Some have the need to be spiteful and will even lie so they will get the upper hand. I think it's very childish. With time, members will see for themselves who to trust. This is NOT a matter between firefly and myself, it's a matter of dealing with facts and not be influenced by seat of the pants trials.

 

[Buster Hymen]

Lets debate the SS lines first. Just what is it about the lines that make them so much better? I'm not talking about what others think. There has to be a reason in black and white to justify that expenditure. Can firefly enlighten us why they are so superior and worth the expense? There is no bickering going on, on my part anyway. There are always two sides to every upgrade or mod and I'm willing to show that what many think are must have mods, are not really necessary at all or contribute little and to some, not worth the expense. I'm sure there are those that want to make improvements no matter the cost or the benefit. I'm suggesting to those that don't have money to burn and are not modaholics, that some mods are blown way out of proportion and don't justify the expenditure. Instead of hearing that your life depends on some must do mods, there should also be a voice for those that can think for themselves and can decide by hearing facts and not going by someone else's seat of the pants feel.
There need to be no hostility in these exchanges, just dealing with reality. Anybody can chime in, ask questions, make statements and above all, care about what goes on in this forum and not just be negative or hide in the background. You're up firefly.

SS lines are better because they don't swell under pressure like the rubber lines do. Also the SS lines won't breakdown over time from the effects of the weather and sunlight as rapidly as the stock rubber lines. Your bike is still pretty new so you won't really notice the effect as much but I got my VMax with 10 plus years on the original lines. The brakes were a handful of mush. Results may vary, but I'll agree that SS is much superior to stock and should be considered, at some time, as an upgrade to your brakes.

 

[Rusty McNeil]

The only reason I can think of for SS brake lines is if they have less "bulge" than the stock ones.

I'll take it on faith that whatever is underneath the stainless braid,( could be nylon, plastic, flexible steel etc, I've seen all kinds on instruments at work) doesn't enlarge under pressure. I have not seen any lines where the braid actually contributed to actual line strength other than stopping a potential "anyurism" (sp?)
The material underneath the braid is what is critical.

If it does enlarge under pressure then that is fluid that is going somewhere other than to the caliper. That is also lever movement that is not contributing to caliper pressure until the lines have elnlarged to thier maximum for the given pressure and therefore contributing to a "spongy" feel...

So the question is: what is the construction of the stock lines and how much if any do they enlarge at working pressure?

I think if they enlarge at all then it could be said that a stainless line that is impervious to swelling would offer some improvement in feel although not neccesarily in ultimate stopping power, it would just take a harder squeeze and a little longer to get the job done...

I have zero experience with this mod and am only commenting from a perspective of understanding some basic physics.

I DO plan on doing this at some point but will say I havve done a lot of very aggresive riding for 2-3 hours at a time (Texas Hill Country RR 335, 336, 337) and have never had my asshole pucker up because of some percieved brake problem. But who knows? Maybe after doing it I will be on here talking about what a wonderful improvement it was and wishing I had done it sooner...

 

[Lew L]

What is under the SS braid???
A teflon based plastic tube in most cases. I changed over first on my 66 HiPo Mustang years ago. No power brakes or disks. Bad brakes in fact. While bleeding them I noticed how much the rubber line bulged when the pressure was applied and my hand was on the line. I ordered stainless steel braided lines the next day. After installation, braking force was higher, the pedal tighter with better feel.

Same on my ZX. And my new car came with them as standard. Race teams use them almost exclusively. My Max is mostly stock but the brakes do need some help. SS lines and EBC HH pads this winter is all I'll need. This simple mod on my ZX changed braking quality dramatically.

Actually, I'd be much more concerned about the member here who hasen't been wearing a helmet:stretche:

Lew

 

[firefly]

I changed my brake line at 5K and the difference was significant, the reason is not just that the rubber stock lines bulge when brake is applied
they also have a smaller diameter which increases the fluid pressure in the lines and calipers.

 

[shawn kloker]

SS lines are better because they don't swell under pressure like the rubber lines do. Also the SS lines won't breakdown over time from the effects of the weather and sunlight as rapidly as the stock rubber lines. Your bike is still pretty new so you won't really notice the effect as much but I got my VMax with 10 plus years on the original lines. The brakes were a handful of mush. Results may vary, but I'll agree that SS is much superior to stock and should be considered, at some time, as an upgrade to your brakes.

Everyone should take a look at Buster's front brakes.This is what needs to be done to all Vmax front ends.Very Nice!

 

[maleko89]

For my '89, am going to get these rotors from denniskir.com if I can't find a cheap pair of late model rotors.

http://www.denniskirk.com/jsp/produ...&productId=p191575&leafCatId=41603&mmyId=2344

 

[mikemax04]

The whole point of this discussion is about MUST DO and NOT if there is ANY advantage gained. Both cables are constructed to be used as hydraulic pressure lines with the exception that the SS lines have a braided cover on the outside. This cover when pushed closer together becomes bigger in diameter and becomes smaller when stretched. Point being, that there is also a certain amount of stretch in the cover. Only steel lines have no reaction to pressure. If your lever feels spongy, it's more likely from having some air in the lines or wear and tear of the system itself. Motorcycles have what is called a low pressure hydraulic system. The lines are also braided underneath the outer rubber covering. Safety regulations dictate what is safe on any vehicle and these regulations are updated and enforced. As far as the longevity of any braking system goes, there are too many factors involved to discuss them now.

You want SS lines? Great, but they are not a MUST HAVE item. Some on the Yahoo list have over 100K miles on their bikes with factory original parts. On the stock lines, the outside rubber will show some cracking (like an older tire) before there is a problem. How do you tell if the SS lines are still in good shape, wait and watch for seepage? I still say it's more of a look issue than an enhancement. When I read some independent tests, showing the SS lines to be far superior and safer, I'll be the first to let all know my experience of eating crow (with a little barbecue sauce). Those that run the hell out of their bikes on any track or constant twisties, I wouldn't say squat. But the majority of maxers ride their bikes for the enjoyment of it and get it on where danger is not so imminent.

Old man Don once cited an example of how inferior the standard brakes are by suggesting you take your bike up to say 120mph and slam the brakes. Do this 3-4 times in succession and you will notice that the brakes will begin to fade. Good point for those that are habitually proned to such actions. No newbie should get the impression that a stock Max is yesterday's garbage and totally unsafe. There isn't anything made that can't be improved upon if money is no object, but is it really necessary?

 

[red98vmax]

I just did my front brakes and clutch with galfer SS lines and regular Galfer (black) brake pads. $250 for all, 75 for pads and 170 for the 4 lines with new copper washers and banjo bolts. Probably should have gotten the $50 back brake line too, but I although I use them, I really don't depend on the back brakes. The PO had changed the pads and they were in good condition, so I saved them, but they were putting out lots of black dust. The old fluid was an ugly grey color from the old lines, '98 original lines. The connection at the clutch side on the clutch line was a pain till I bought a set of flange open end wrenches. regular open ends just rounded off one of the the soft metal nuts.

I get a slightly better feel on the brakes although I could lock them up before any changes. I expect that they won't degrade as quickly as stock lines, so I feel safer than before. There was very little difference in the clutch at all, but it looks better! I haven't noticed any black dust build-up from the brakes after about 1000 miles, but I intended to get the EBC HH pads, he ones I got are good.

Overall, the bang for the buck was not as good as I had expected, but the cost is not prohibitive and I am happy to have some improvement and peace of mind. A $5.00 brake and clutch bleed is a definite "should do" at the very least for anyone with over two years since the last one. It was a good chance for me to clean everything up in those areas too. The levers should be removed, cleaned and re-greased. that made a big difference, too.

I gave all my take-offs to a fellow maxer with a 85 with original lines, so I feel good about not throwing away usable parts.

Later I found out that you can buy Russell SS lines for about half the cost, I'd check that out too if I were you.

Steve

 

[shawn kloker]

For my '89, am going to get these rotors from denniskir.com if I can't find a cheap pair of late model rotors.

http://www.denniskirk.com/jsp/product_catalog/Product.jsp?skuId=&store=Main&catId=416&productId=p191575&leafCatId=41603&mmyId=2344

Mark,These are only $80-$90 from University.I still recomend to you to update your calipers first.

 

[maleko89]

Shawn, I agree with you. My friend Frank is upgrading to R1 calipers so he's giving me his late model 4-pots.

 

[mikemax04]

Many maxers have had their beast for quite some time and know what they want and need. I'm in no way suggesting they should or shouldn't do any mods. At the same time we have some recent intros to the Max and they need to understand that the stock bike is not a can of worms and very few upgrades are a must. Much depends on the rider and his style of riding. Those that push their ride close to the edge on the twisties should look into upgrades because the bike was not intended for that purpose. People on a tight budget or those that haven't been bit by the max-modification bug (that's where one looses self control and goes mod crazy) and spends the baby's milk money on upgrades. At the same time the allowance you get from the wife can be used as play dough. Get it?

 

[Calimus]

Very nice analogies there mike, lol.

I'll also step up and say that SS lines can make a difference. I don't have them on my Max, but I do on one of my VW's. Since I have two of the exact same car and one is still 100% OEM stock, I can easly tell the difference. One of them stops great and the other I close my eye's when I use the brakes.

I'm sure it makes a difference in the Max as well.

However, I've seen better increases in braking by using different rotors. Stock is just drilled, if there was a set of slotted and drilled, that would be the ticket.

However, I for one and trying not to go mod crazy with the max. Not because I don't want to, I just have a long line of other money sucking projects a head of it.