Can someone explain this to me?

[Kronx]

Saw this story today and I know we got some EMTs here and I suspect we probably got some law enforcement as well.

The way I understand this story is the police were chasing a car. That car crashed into a semi truck. The truck driver is at the hospital unconscious. The police want his blood. The ER nurse can't give it to them based on hospital procedures agreed to by the police department. She's showing the cop the letter. That latter states they can only give the cops the blood if one of the three things exist:

1> Patient is under arrest. He wasn't. The video shows her asking the cop and he says no.
2> Cops have a warrant. Again the video shows her asking if they have a warrant. And they say no.
3> The patient consents. Which on the video she explains the patient is unconscious and therefore can't provide consent.

She has hospital administration on speaker phone backing up her side. And the cop not only arrests her, but he's just being, in my opinion, a complete asshole. Why would even arrest her? She wasn't being argumentative or disrepsectful. She was just doing her job. And there's about half a dozen other cops just standing around watching it go down. Surely they have to know this isn't right?

Is it routine for them to want blood? I mean can't they just ask the hospital to test it since they have it and let them know the results(or perhaps they can issue a warrant for them later). It really makes me curious why the police are so damn insistent to get the blood right then and there. Why wouldn't cooperating with the hospital and doing whatever legal paperwork was needed to find out the results in a day or two? Why was there such urgency on the police departments part?

In my opinion the headline should read "Nurse illegally arrested after refusing to allow cop to violate the constitutional rights of patient."


http://www.sltrib.com/news/2017/08/...at-bars-taking-blood-from-unconscious-victim/

 

[Fire-medic]

I try to respect the other side of the uniformed services, but when you have someone behave like this, it's hard. I have to think, "it's just this particular LEO," why take it out on the nurse? Get the warrant, get the blood, and avoid a public relations disaster.

I think the nurse should have a good case for what happened, should she decide to pursue it.

The time of the blood draw is important for determining if the person was impaired. You don't need to be drunk by the statute amount, probably 0.08, to be held responsible for your behavior behind the wheel. With passage of time, the alcohol leaves the bloodstream. It soulds like they are looking for contributory causes to what happened.

In FL you can refuse to give blood, but you then surrender your driving privileges for something like 6 months. Not being an attorney, and not having had to deal with this type of infraction, I don't know the exact timeframe. I've seen the PSA billboards announcing, "drive drunk, spend $10,000." That's what it costs to go through the procedure to be adjudicated, and to get returned your privileges for legal road use. Of course, many convicted drivers continue to drive, and without insurance, so watch-out. The ignition interlocks are one way to prevent someone from driving, but I'm sure there are ways to circumvent that. Isn't that why those things turn-up on youtube?

There is something called "implied consent," that if someone is unconscious, to be able to determine the patient assessment for forming a care plan of treatment, an unconscious patient can have their blood drawn, or emergency medical procedures can be done without the patient's consent, to stabilize them, or to save their life.

 

[Kronx]

The article had police car cam video of the chase. From what I saw the car they chased crossed the line and ran head on into the truck. The car driver died. There was a small explosion and fire. I think the truck driver got burned as well. It seems pretty cut and dry as to what happened and who was at fault - not the truck driver. At least that's what I walked away with, but that video is from a distance and bit grainy and I'm half blind these days haha. Their insistence on the truck drivers blood to the point of arresting the nurse is just puzzling to me. Could there have been a chance the truck driver could have sued the police as a result of the chase leading to him getting hit head on? And so they were trying to do some "CYA"? Just really bewildering to me which is why I thought I'd post it here and get some feedback. Thanks for your input, it helps get a better understanding of the procedures.

 

[Traumahawk]

IMHO, the Nurse is in the right. When you get your blood drawn (for a possible DUI) you are under arrest at that point. Thats why you can be FORCED to submit for a blood draw.

LOL, I just read the part where they talk about IMPLIED consent. That is to HELP a patient to is unconsciousness/unresponsive, because the law says that a patient would normally want the assistance, if they could speak.....etc.

Sounds like she (the nurse) might have case for possible kidnapping.

 

[dannymax]

imho, the nurse is in the right. When you get your blood drawn (for a possible dui) you are under arrest at that point. Thats why you can be forced to submit for a blood draw.

Lol, i just read the part where they talk about implied consent. That is to help a patient to is unconsciousness/unresponsive, because the law says that a patient would normally want the assistance, if they could speak.....etc.

Sounds like she (the nurse) might have case for possible kidnapping.

+1

 

[1FK00]

Saw this story today and I know we got some EMTs here and I suspect we probably got some law enforcement as well.

The way I understand this story is the police were chasing a car. That car crashed into a semi truck. The truck driver is at the hospital unconscious. The police want his blood. The ER nurse can't give it to them based on hospital procedures agreed to by the police department. She's showing the cop the letter. That latter states they can only give the cops the blood if one of the three things exist:

1> Patient is under arrest. He wasn't. The video shows her asking the cop and he says no.
2> Cops have a warrant. Again the video shows her asking if they have a warrant. And they say no.
3> The patient consents. Which on the video she explains the patient is unconscious and therefore can't provide consent.

She has hospital administration on speaker phone backing up her side. And the cop not only arrests her, but he's just being, in my opinion, a complete asshole. Why would even arrest her? She wasn't being argumentative or disrepsectful. She was just doing her job. And there's about half a dozen other cops just standing around watching it go down. Surely they have to know this isn't right?

Is it routine for them to want blood? I mean can't they just ask the hospital to test it since they have it and let them know the results(or perhaps they can issue a warrant for them later). It really makes me curious why the police are so damn insistent to get the blood right then and there. Why wouldn't cooperating with the hospital and doing whatever legal paperwork was needed to find out the results in a day or two? Why was there such urgency on the police departments part?

In my opinion the headline should read "Nurse illegally arrested after refusing to allow cop to violate the constitutional rights of patient."


http://www.sltrib.com/news/2017/08/...at-bars-taking-blood-from-unconscious-victim/

Unfortunately headlines are just tools to get the reader to read further, or if they are front page, to buy the paper in the first place. Same with electronic news. They are under no obligation to be accurate or tell the whole story, which is pretty much standard when political bias is involved.

 

[dgeos]

I'm a firefighter/EMT in WA state. I appreciate blue and the incredibly difficult job they do. But sometimes I wonder. I have had to ask the troopers to leave the back of our rig while we treated patients because they were interfering with the med/trauma assessment in an attempt to determine intoxication. Under our protocols the scene and patient are ours until released to law. In one case I had to tell a troop 3 times that we had already put drugs on board a patient as he tried without success to assess pupil reaction with his light. The patient had multiple fractures in the femur and and open fracture of the humerus - they were in a great deal of pain, so pain meds were administered right away. The troop didn't want to acknowledge that the patient was intoxicated because we loaded them up ourselves. I think the heat of battle and desire to catch someone sometimes suspends what is common sense and gives them tunnel vision. I know I've experienced it from my end too. Just my 2 cents

 

[forestdaledave]

Nope, I can't explain why the cop did what he did. I hope he gets just due.

 

[Bill Seward]

+1, Dave. This guy needs to be purged from the police force before he kills someone. This woman needs a good lawyer. And this jerk cop needs to see the inside of a jail cell.

Inexcusable.

 

[caseyjones955]

Nurse is right, HIPAA prevents us RNs from disclosing anything not on a need to know basis. I would have made the same call. Even if I were not bound by HIPAA laws within my own practice I would always side with privacy of citizens over the demands of law enforcement/gov. No warrant or court order then no cooperation.

 

[dannymax]

I believe there's a Supreme Court decision that supports the nurse & hospital's position on this.

Detective Payne appeared to go completely off the rail....think a review of his job performance may reveal some interesting (and shocking) behavior.

 

[caseyjones955]

I just watched the video and it fucking pissed me off. Watching heavy handed law enforcement is always rage worthy. I'll bet this gal that was just doing her job in the least confrontational and most humble way possible will not be buying anymore charity tickets to the policeman ball.

Another way to view this is when she was arrested that facility became short one nurse, which is catastrophic in most facilities as many are chronically understaffed as it is. Nurses are hard to find and hire, that nurse could have been (and probably was) in the process of treating several different patients. I suspect any patients harmed by her abrupt removal would rightly also have a suit against the police dept. I'm not a litigious person but I would have my lawyer on this with instructions to make it hurt as much as humanly possible. What a fuck stick, I hope this ends his law enforcement career in the shame he so richly deserves. I hope the nurse gets to buy a new 335xi with enough money left over to double her IRA.

 

[Eugene Brad]

I'm having a hard time believing it is real. Ya know? Wtf? Why wouldn't they just get a warrant? And not for the blood but maybe just a toxicology report or something. Or is that one in the same? It seemed the nurse said they couldnt give them blood, but maybe they could do tests, idk? Pretty frustrating to see people doing their job to protect the rights of someone and getting punished for it.
I'm hoping it's some kind of anti cop propaganda video.. because it seems pretty crazy.

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[dannymax]

I'm having a hard time believing it is real. Ya know? Wtf? Why wouldn't they just get a warrant? And not for the blood but maybe just a toxicology report or something. Or is that one in the same? It seemed the nurse said they couldnt give them blood, but maybe they could do tests, idk? Pretty frustrating to see people doing their job to protect the rights of someone and getting punished for it.
I'm hoping it's some kind of anti cop propaganda video.. because it seems pretty crazy.

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It's all over the news, seems to be authentic.

 

[98Redlne]

Just a bit of speculation on my part, but because the cop decided to keep up the high speed pursuit , disregarding public safety, the accident could be argued to be partially his fault. If the innocent truck driver could be shown to have any level of impairment they could make the argument that the impairment was a factor in him being part of the colision, not purely the cop was chasing a guy way too fast, and forced an error that killed one and severely burned the other.

When the nurse shut him down on the blood draw, he doubled down on stupid and attempted to force the issue.

I forsee a good lawyer getting his qualified immunity pulled and having him charged directly with reckless endangerment and probably vehicular manslaughter.

 

[Wirenut]

Like stated before about getting a toxicology report the legal limit while operating under a CDL is .04 so I can see why the cop would want it without delay. Still no excuse for how he acted. He's probably already been put on leave or retired... IMO he should be under investigation for his prior arrests. Old habits die hard and I'm sure evidence that has been obtained before has been collected in this same manner.


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[COP RUNNER]

I was a Firefighter for 32 years and unfortunately saw alot of very sad things first hand ,
and most of you know how I feel about some ROGUE POLICE OFFICERS , I HOPE HE GETS WHATS COMMING TO HIM !

 

[sdt354]

I hope the nurse sues, and wins. Cops everywhere need to know there are lines they can't cross. This one obviously doesn't get it. If he had a warrant, and she wouldn't cooperate, then I could see some justification. Roughing up a nurse in a hospital? Very bad P.R. No need for it.

 

[Kronx]

Looks like the hospital is making changes to law enforcement officers access within the hospital. I won't be surprised if this gets implemented in more hospitals:

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...-hospital-bars-police-from-patient-care-areas

 

[88vmx12]

IMHO, the Nurse is in the right. When you get your blood drawn (for a possible DUI) you are under arrest at that point. Thats why you can be FORCED to submit for a blood draw.

LOL, I just read the part where they talk about IMPLIED consent. That is to HELP a patient to is unconsciousness/unresponsive, because the law says that a patient would normally want the assistance, if they could speak.....etc.

Sounds like she (the nurse) might have case for possible kidnapping.

You are correct! This happened not very far from me and was a huge topic. My sister in law works in the medical field only minutes away from where this took place. I guess this rocked the medical world there. She said "patient's rights" or something along those lines. From my understanding it is nothing short of raping a woman, you are taking something from that person.