EFI Project

[Fabius72]

Hello to all ...
I and Luca unfortunately do not have much time to continue our project, and it proceed so slowly.
Luca became dad last month and I am too busy during this period.

Congratulations Gary and Mark for the job you are doing! :clapping::clapping::clapping:

James and Jean have made the sequential code and I have almost finished to assemble MegaSquirt.
I hope to write soon!

 

[TURBOVMAX]

Hello to all ...
I and Luca unfortunately do not have much time to continue our project, and it proceed so slowly.
Luca became dad last month and I am too busy during this period.

Congratulations Gary and Mark for the job you are doing! :clapping::clapping::clapping:

James and Jean have made the sequential code and I have almost finished to assemble MegaSquirt.
I hope to write soon!

Hello Fabio,

Congratulations to Luca! Girl or boy? Thank You! Mark and I are working hard to complete the project. Lots to do as you know. Please do keep us informed with your progress.

 

[Fabius72]

Hi Gary...
Luca's children is a baby V-Maxer :eusa_dance: and his name is Giulio.
At the begin of next month I will go to his home and finally I will see all beautiful family!
He is finishing our throttle body and rail, while I'm waiting last components to complete Megasquirt with second MAP sensor to have a constant barometric measurement and a circuit to switch VE tables.
When I will have any news, sure I'll tell you.

Meanwhile, I continue to follow your work. I have a little question about throttle linkages, which moves the throttle plate, but I do not know how to explain :bang head:​

 

[TURBOVMAX]

Hi Gary...
Luca's children is a baby V-Maxer :eusa_dance: and his name is Giulio.
At the begin of next month I will go to his home and finally I will see all beautiful family!
He is finishing our throttle body and rail, while I'm waiting last components to complete Megasquirt with second MAP sensor to have a constant barometric measurement and a circuit to switch VE tables.
When I will have any news, sure I'll tell you.

Meanwhile, I continue to follow your work. I have a little question about throttle linkages, which moves the throttle plate, but I do not know how to explain :bang head:​

Can you show us pictures or a short video of the problem? A boy for Luca that's great!

 

[Fabius72]

Our is not a problem, but a perplexity about your movements of butterfly.
..and now hard work for my bad English ullhair: :
are you sure cylinder 1-3 and 2-4 has same air-fuel mixture?
We are a bit perplexed. We think (but probably wronging) that the bracket crossed ho join the movement of cyl 1-3 butterfly with cyl 2-4 butterfly to have same orientation opening, make a little error and give different air quantity... is so hard to have correctly position. We prefered to have opposite butterfly movement with simple connecting, but certainly have identical quantity of air.

We don't like to much but we think is better.

What do you thing about this question?
I'm sorry but I can't write better :-(

Last thing.. You made a wonderful work to put cam sensor! What type of sensor is it? We preferred to use a hall sensor, to use a part of circuit already existing onboard and because all type we have found here, was VR.

Thank you...

 

[TURBOVMAX]

I understand your question perfectly. It was more important for me to have the correct injector angle relationship to the port flow. The GSXR injectors are actually pointed at the throttle plates beginning about 1/2 open throttle. Mass air flow is a science and I thank Suzuki for their hard work. You are correct that the angles will never be exact. They will be within one degree if set up properly. Once finished I will flow the TB's and set the linkage according to flow for each cylinder.

The nice thing about the GSXR TB setup is that the TB's can be set for flow relative to it's respective cylinder. Here is an example diagram of the throttle linkage setup and the relationship of the throttle angles.

The sensor is a VR type. The VR sensor is about 10 times more acurate than a hall. The Haltech has it's own signal conditioner built into the unit. You can create a small circuit to convert the sinusoidal signal to square wave for the MS. Again we chose the Hayabusa sensor... simply because it works.
Maybe it will make the VMAX competitive with the Hayabusa :rofl_200:

 

[Fabius72]

Very interesting diagram! Our was simply a supposition!

The sensor is a VR type. The VR sensor is about 10 times more acurate than a hall. The Haltech has it's own signal conditioner built into the unit. You can create a small circuit to convert the sinusoidal signal to square wave for the MS. Again we chose the Hayabusa sensor... simply because it works.
Maybe it will make the VMAX competitive with the Hayabusa :rofl_200:

We hope! :biglaugh::biglaugh::biglaugh:

We know VR sensor is more accurate than HALL, but it won't read a phonic wheel: on the camshaft it will read only one time every two crank turns, so we think to have no problem and we bought a new Honeywell hall sensor (about only 20 euros) that work till 150?C.
Only to think how to put on the correct place in the best mode.

You've done well to use the hayabusa VR sensor! And you made a fantastic clean work.
Many Compliments.

I just finished to made stimulator to try all correct operation functioning of MS.
And now I'm going to do that... Meanwhile, we follow you.

​

 

[Birdoprey]

UPDATE. We have FIRE IN THE HOLE! Well, not actually in the hole...but we do have FIRE!

Progress has been slow due to work and medical issues w/ my 8yr old lil girl.

In case anyone is unfamilar, i'm running the Hayabusa COP's with the Haltech E8 ECU. Gary is gonna run the Chebby LS-1 coils for starters(he may upgrade to the SUPER HOT LS-2 coils later). Initially, the LS-1 coils are easier to plug-n-play due to the fact that they have built-in ingiters(which control charge dwell time and current flow). I still wanted to use the COPs as they are neat/sano and do not require plugwires of any kind. Ultimately, the LS-1/LS-2 coils are a HIGH HP option that is easy to upgrade to. The COP's will be fine for stk and even modded motors and offer a hotter spark than do the stk V-max coils. A big plus is that we will not be using a wasted spark setup like the stk V-max so charge time at higher rpm will still be good. Who knows, we may actually make a little more power up top just due to that.
Anyway, the COP's are a little more hassle to initially setup due to needing an external igniter to power them, which just means a little more wiring and finding a place for the igniter. The one i chose to use is very small(smaller than a pack of cigerettes) and cheaper than most. Bought it off ebay from a fella overseas. He originally built it for use with Megasquirt EFI units and was unable to offer much helpful setup info for use with the Haltech unit. After about 6hrs of trial and error(thought i burnt up several COPs in the process!), i finally think i have the settings right. Some may be able to grasp what actually happens with triggers and ignition systems, but i had quite a time. Test, no-workie, hit the internet, hit the manual, test again, no-workie,hit the internet, hit the manual, etc....
Good news is that with the info i have found, i can pass it to anyone and they can just set the E8 up right the first time. No need to understand falling edge trigger, rising edge trigger, ignition spark edge rising/falling, Constant charge/Constant duty Dwell mode, Constant charge time, Spark break time, Wave form naturally high, Wave form naturally low, etc...(the funnest part of it all was not knowing what the igniter needed as an input OR what it triggered off of(rising or falling edge)).
Anyway, I've got it so i can use my timing light(Snap-on w/ timing adj knob) and spin the motor over and timing is right on 10deg BTDC for cyl #1. In the E8 software, i've locked the timing to 10deg BTDC and i've got the crank trigger set at 65deg BTDC. This is using the stk 89 quad pickup sensor. I'm using two of the pickups and i've tied them together to get two pulses every 360deg(each 180deg apart). Goofy thing is that though its a VR sensor, I've got the E8 set to Halleffect crank trigger(looking for a square wave signal). I'm using two diodes to filter out the negative pulses. It reads a steadier cranking rpm than it did when setup to use the VR. That brings me to another note: Gary and I have decided to ditch using the stk crank trigger all together. There are problems with both Generations of pickups used on the 85-07 V-max's, each requiring much different mods for it to pickup a reliable signal. In an effort to make this setup easy for ALL V-max owners to simply plug-n-play, we are gonna use a setup that Gary has come up with. Won't need to remove stk flywheel(at least i don't think so...) for it, making it a very easy setup to do.
Gary is working on getting the cam sensor setup done, so as soon as i get that i can check to see if i can get all 4 cyls firing...correctly.
I've attatched a pic of the igniter(forgive the rats nest of wires. Gotta get everything up and working before i figure how best to lay everything), and also the cop mounted for testing. I have a couple of vids of me spinning the motor over and you can see the plug sparking. I don't think i can attatch them though. Lastly, i've attatched a pic of a Hayabusa throttle housing/switch assembly that i mounted on my V-max. I cut the switch assembly end of the factory housing/switch and wired it to the Hayabusa switch assembly. Makes it plug up just like factory. The switch came from a 06 Hayabusa so it has the hazard switch which i'm not gonna use(for a hazard anyway! Could be a good trigger to arm a dry nitrous system! Or?). Everything works as stock. Won't be needing the fuel pump reserve switch since we are going EFI. No loss there! I'm hoping the Hayabusa throttle cables will be long enough to bolt directly to the GSXR600 TB's. We shall see...

 

[maleko89]

Mark, hope your daughter gets better soon!

 

[Birdoprey]

Me Too! Hopefully we will get the problem narrowed down and fixed! Thanks for the thought Mark!

 

[RagingMain]

EXUP anyone. Just wondering if this ECU could be configured to run an EXUP valve. Would be easier for those of us running a 4-1 but could be possible for the stock configuration as well.

Would this even be needed. I am thinking the engineers at Yamaha are pretty smart guys and if they put it in the following bikes, FZR, YZF, XV1900, R series,MT-01, and lets not forget the new VMax, it might be useful to us as well:ummm: Oh yeah Triumph uses it on one of their bikes too.

If we are not going to be using the vboost the servo motor could be used to open and close the valve???

Cheers

 

[TURBOVMAX]

:hmmm: Interesting question. The E8 is capable of running a stepper motor. I'm quite sure they use a servo motor to drive the EXUP valve. If you were to want to try that setup. I think you may want to get more info on the controller on your own as you will have to tune that particular event. You'd have to have a real good understanding of how the stock OEM ECU handles the EXUP. At this point we can use all of the research help we can get as we're real busy configuring the setup to run the stock engine.

The E8 manual is here: http://www.vmaxforum.net/showthread.php?t=6700. There is also the newer version ECU with all the bells and whistles called the Platinum.

That manual is here: http://www.haltech.com/downloads/platinum/Help-en/Sport/

They also have an excellent forum with lots of hotrod types that are pretty slick and probably can answer that question if you field it.

You can check that out here: http://forums.haltech.com/index.php?sid=b06cbca6817514871328d32c5dbf4c24

Please let us know what you find. Sounds like a good project.

 

[Birdoprey]

It is definately capable of operating it. I'm not sure if the factory ecu's use a stepper motor or if they just open it up at a specific rpm. Either way, the Haltech units are capable of operating either one. The problem i see is that an exhaust valve is gonna hamper hp up top. ALL aftermarket exhaust systems eliminate this. The valve even hampers peak tq. At least on the few that i've changed and dyno'd, peak TQ went up with a good exhaust system and proper tune. Though the valve could help low rpm tq, there is a trade off. Would also require a custom exhaust system, or at least a good bit of it.
It could definately be looked into once we have the basic setup up and running. IMO, the first place would be to look at many of the OEM setups, what type of motor controls the valves, and at what rpm they typically open. Though the V-max would prolly require a different rpm. OEM did lots of testing to find what worked best.
Hey Gary, we could also do a dual intake length setup like the new V-max and later R-1's! Hehe...

 

[RagingMain]

It is definately capable of operating it. I'm not sure if the factory ecu's use a stepper motor or if they just open it up at a specific rpm. Either way, the Haltech units are capable of operating either one. The problem i see is that an exhaust valve is gonna hamper hp up top. ALL aftermarket exhaust systems eliminate this. The valve even hampers peak tq. At least on the few that i've changed and dyno'd, peak TQ went up with a good exhaust system and proper tune. Though the valve could help low rpm tq, there is a trade off. Would also require a custom exhaust system, or at least a good bit of it.
It could definately be looked into once we have the basic setup up and running. IMO, the first place would be to look at many of the OEM setups, what type of motor controls the valves, and at what rpm they typically open. Though the V-max would prolly require a different rpm. OEM did lots of testing to find what worked best.
Hey Gary, we could also do a dual intake length setup like the new V-max and later R-1's! Hehe...

That was actually my next question. This would be very easy to accomplish. Either one soleniod that lifts a rack or 4 different ones to lift a trumpet for each carb. Would be activated at a certain RPM:eusa_dance::eusa_dance:
I know the new VMax is bigger but it has the same Redline so using its RPM settings for either the exup and dual intake would be a good starting point.

As far as the EXUP I am leaning towards what Mark was talking about. After reading a lot of forums today most people that go with aftermarket tuning and exhaust eliminate the EXUP. If it does increase midrange torque enough to be worth it, it might be beneficial to those of us who dont race around at the upper end of the RPM band, but instead like to hand out ass whoopings from stop light to stop light.
Plus with the 4-1 the exhaust setup wouldnt be that hard to fab up at the collector.
I will dig into if the brains around here think it would a worth while addition:confused2::ummm::confused2::ummm:
Cheers

 

[TURBOVMAX]

That was actually my next question. This would be very easy to accomplish. Either one soleniod that lifts a rack or 4 different ones to lift a trumpet for each carb. Would be activated at a certain RPM:eusa_dance::eusa_dance:
I know the new VMax is bigger but it has the same Redline so using its RPM settings for either the exup and dual intake would be a good starting point.

As far as the EXUP I am leaning towards what Mark was talking about. After reading a lot of forums today most people that go with aftermarket tuning and exhaust eliminate the EXUP. If it does increase midrange torque enough to be worth it, it might be beneficial to those of us who dont race around at the upper end of the RPM band, but instead like to hand out ass whoopings from stop light to stop light.
Plus with the 4-1 the exhaust setup wouldnt be that hard to fab up at the collector.
I will dig into if the brains around here think it would a worth while addition:confused2::ummm::confused2::ummm:
Cheers

All for the ram tubes or velocity stacks as their sometimes called. In fact I've designed them into the throttle body setup. I've looked into the designs for sport bikes as far as different lengths at different TB locations etc. That will be a fun thing to tune with once the system is up and running and we have a stable operating system. As far as the adjust-ability of height of the tubes using a solenoid or some other means of actuation... well that could add a considerable cost to the system.

I remember a fella at the drag strip that had a 41 Willys (god I loved that car) He was running a mechanical fuel injection/alcohol intake. He had racks of ram tubes... he would actually tune the car with them depending on the weather conditions etc. I hung around and watched while he was dialing it in at a track rental and it was really remarkable at how he could change his setup with them. Been a big fan of them since. Maybe we could have one set for the street and one for the track. But that's fine tuning, gotta walk before we can run... lots to know.

 

[dubious]

Just read all of thjis and I am very amped about the work you guys have done!
Awesome!

Having a simple effective EFI system should be all we ask for.
Keep it simple and affordable, and you will sell more!

Kudo's , great work gents!

 

[RagingMain]

Hey Gary
Any progress on the TB and or linkages?
Cheers

 

[satariel666]

I have a much time recently....

I was reading, studing, rading, learnig and all over...

I alwyas wanted efi on v-max. Thats the thing i was thinking for a long time, since i've had my first 85 v-max, about 5 years ago...never mind that.

Finaly its a shame that Megasquirt cant be used on "Mr oddfire v-max".
To bad couse its most cheapo EFI controler on a market, double to bad couse you can buy it unassembled and go for more cheapo.

Also MS have something that i could not find with the others engine menagments systems. LCDash digital touchscreen:
http://lcdash.wikispaces.com/
Really, fantastic thing!


Another thing is that MS have a big suport with MS forum.



As Mark/Birdo mentioned, why take that hard route and dont get full motor menagment, only "somehow" working EFI system with "somehow" ignitoin control.
Doubt that sequential injecion could be possible with MS. Again somehow...
How the hell MS will know when to inject cyl 2,3 and 4?

So bye bye to MS....:confused2:



I agree with Mark that Haltech is most resonable way to do it.
The bad thing is spending over 1k$ for it.
Definitly must find used one on ebay.
Heres the one:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Haltech-E6X-Flying-Lead-Kit-Long-31005_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em
14QQhashZitem3ca5ed6bddQQitemZ260481838045QQptZMotors
Q5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories



Another system that can be used is DICKTATOR.
Its waaay cheapo then others.
http://www.dicktator.co.za/

Been trying to find any feedback on the web, google shows bad and good feedback. Bad mostly becouse of weak support and time of delivery.
Didnt find any negative feedback about engine menagment system itself.
This is something to be considered...



Mark:
Im reading EX6 manual, i must say its very big one :hmmm:
Curently im stuck at "use that and do not do that etc"...

I saw that you using COP. How much current E8/EX6 coil driver can handle?
Does Haltech use bulit-in coil driver or only have ignitor driver?

Basic Dicktator system have single ignition driver suitable for dump or inteligent ignitors.
Lot of dumb ignitors on the market like Bosh 211 but cant control dwell with them.
But 211 is ideal for COPs.

 

[Birdoprey]

satariel666,

The E6 does not have enough outputs to run sequential injection AND direct fire ignition. You need 8 outputs for that, which is why i'm using the E8. The E11 has even more, though not needed.
The Haltech units can not directly drive dumb coils(like the COPs i'm using). It can directly drive "intelligent" coils like the LS-1 and LS-2 coils(though they are not COP). You might can find some "intelligent" COP's, but i dunno if they will fit and would'nt know where to look for them.
In order for the Haltech units to control "dumb" coils, it needs an external igniter. I picked up an nice 4 ch unit for $75 shipped(overseas). The igniter handles the load, so there are no issues. The unit i have has been tested over 16000rpm with .7 Ohm coils.
Haltech no longer makes the E8/E11 etc, but they can still be had NEW OLD STOCK. I picked up mine for $800 and it included a 3 bar map sensor($75ish), 6 LS-1 coils, a wiring harness and a few other bits. So, in actuality i've prolly only got $500 ish in the unit itself. Not much more than the MS units that are assembled. I've seen other deals, though one would need to be patient.
Also, I found that the new Haltech Platinum series WILL NOT SUPPORT ODD FIRING ENGINES. Got that straight from Haltech. So, thats out...
I've not seen, nor heard of the other unit you mentioned.
There may be a possibility for the MS. The Itallian guys(Fabio, Luca) are using one and actually have it running. But, they have been having lost sync issues and as far as i know have not yet sorted it out.

 

[Birdoprey]

Forgot to mention, the E8 can control dwell/charge time, etc. Just need the igniter to carry the load/fire the coil.
The easiest thing to do is to run LS-1 coils at they are intelligent. Don't need to mess with a bunch of settings in the Haltech software, so its super easy to do. Running a external igniter requires quite a few settings in the Haltech software, and can require ALOT of trial and error unless you are a ignition guru(need to know if igniter requires rising edge/falling edge, constant charge, dwell time, charge time, etc, etc). Good thing is that i've already figured that part out so it would just be a matter of inputing the info. No problem...